Please specify an area BESIDES the entrance to chapel, the little resource room off computer control, and most of the wind tunnel hive location room, which I already know all about and plan on changing a little bit.
I'd just like to throw in my bits here, haven't had the pleasure of playing the map yet (against others). Two windows that I'd like to point out, hanger hive giant window and wind tunnel giant window (it is a window yes?) Particularly the hanger one, I thought it could use a little depth like this window in the atrium [attached]. (continued in next post)
Place some grass in the paradise lost location. Download monster furniture entitie example below.
im working on a model for a giant 3d rotating earth (1st .mdl milkshape pracice).... duh failed in framing compiling process in milkshape (its late)....
First of all, I must say. This map is the scariest I've played by far (the use of lighting reminds me of The Thing on Xbox. The "Blue Light" area scared the sh*t outta me in LAN mode!). Though I did spot some major problems. Many things would disappear depending on what angle they were looked at, a problem I've never seen in an HL map. Thi problem was appearant when trying to get to the wind tunnel. I hit the button, but I saw no tram, so I decided to walk down the tram tunnel to the wind tunnel, but then I was stopped for no reason (it was the "invisible tram in my way). Maybe this was happening because I was in LAN mode, I dunno. Also, your minimap would not show up ingame. I'm going to play this map online as soon as I can to see if it's different that way.
ya i forgot to mention that...your minimap seems bogus, it dosent show at all, and as someone preveously posted the mini map says beta1...but should be beta12. no?
That wind tunnel place is freaky ****. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, I never had any problems with the map; the minimap works perfectly, and the tram doesn't dissapear. *shrug*. I did notice some weird stuff on the wall right outside the door to the hangar hive. It looks like when you fly through a wall with noclip (no texture there, maybe?).
Chalupa, that is the bug we are talking about. Its not my map, its a problem with the NS engine which I havent been able to figure out. (If its NOT the NS engine and its the HL engine someone please correct me, no one I've talked to has any clue what is causing it, but the people that it does happen to realize its not the map cause sometimes they play it on multiple computers and it works correctly on some and doesnt work on others. VERY strange)
I would like to say something like "don't take this in a bad way", but I won't, because really, I know there is only one way you are going to take this. Know however, that this criticism isn't harsh just for the fun of it, but because I think you need it.
This has to be the worst map that I've ever seen for NS in terms of playability.
Pros: - Some places look good - Idea of a dark map is all well and good... - "Sirius" as the entry music is a good idea. Me likes.
Cons: - Very bad overall layout with bad desing in most areas - Way too dark - There's no consistency, map seems to be just a bunch of different rooms thrown together - Horrible noises from the elevators - Number of glitches and bugs - And much more
I'm sorry, but this map doesn't appeal to me in any way. You do know how to map, but this one is a stillborn. If you wish to make a map that becomes actually popular, you must have a solid idea about what you want to do. You can't just throw everything you think of into it and expect it to work. Kudos for the effort, but there are times when criticism is needed and this _is_ one of those times. Keep on mapping however, I would like to see what you can make with a better plan and some self-restraint about the ideas you would like to implement.
One thing I noticed in doing my own map, was once you had too many entities in the same area, you would get one of those little error messages in-game that pop down from the upper right if you have -dev on and it says something about too many visible entities, and so it would then make some of the entities that went over the limit disappear.
its awsome weather you give positive or negative critizim, but if you do dont just say, o you had **** map design, please Explain what you mean, dont just list a few things and expect anything to come of it. the places that look good, why do you think they do, the ones that look bad why also? bad overall layout and bad designing in most areas.. compared to? how so? its Dark for a Reason, aliens use the dark to there advantage, marines have flashlights... Use them...on the consistancy there is Some but it does randomly jump to different styles with the paradise lost and the church, all which are awsome ideas, but maby not all for the same map. and that one elevator noize...drives me freaking batty....the loud screeching one. u can hear it from the marine start. -and much more-<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> dont write that, that helps No one, if you want the map improved u Need to say what much more is, its in its beta its not finished, it still has bugs like all new maps do, but to help yourself in getting a revamped better map and help requiem design a map playable for NS that people can all enjoy, im not saying everyone likes every map, maby this just isint your map, but if your going to critize d0 it in detale or theres no point to it
its awsome weather you give positive or negative critizim, but if you do dont just say, o you had **** map design, please Explain what you mean, dont just list a few things and expect anything to come of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point was in fact that the concept of this map is in my opinion so bad, that it can't be improved much by changing some parts of it.
I don't see any point in going into details with a map that doesn't in my opinion do even its basics right. Those who feel Andromeda is a good concept can give their opinions about tweaking it. I can only suggest that Requiem should do a map that a) has a clear concept and b) is believable. NS isn't about realism, but you have to maintain some illusion of realism in the maps. Andromeda doesn't do that. It feels like it has every neat thing Requiem came up with while planning it and that isn't exactly good.
So my criticism isn't about details, because I don't see any reason to go into them. I do realise that not every map has to be believable and some people like to do the unbelievable in their maps. However, I don't feel it makes a very good NS map.
Edit: But if the mapper really wants to hear my suggestions about improving this map then here is few: 1. Hives seem to have only one entrance. This is bad and should be fixed. Wind tunnel for example is ridiculously hard to get to. 2. Every hive should be replaced with new designs. Wind tunnel is just plain stupid and Chapel has bad layout. Hangar looks rather good but open space this big doesn't work. 3. Pitch black places have to go. Especially the tunnel with blue lights and the computer control(?) with red lighting.
I thought the map has a lot of promise in many area's BUT two things bothered me.
1) My server suffered the disappearing tram bug. I really dont think re-installing NS is nesessary as I have it running perfectly with all the other mods, hlg, adminmod etc. Requiem, If you are interested I can probably give you system access to look at it and see whats up (its running on WinXP Pro)? Until these problems are fixed it wont find it's way into my regular mapcycle. (I also had the missing minimap but I renamed the spr so that should be ok)
2) It is too difficult to navigate. I spent ages as a gorge tring to get from chapel to 'any other hive'. Ifeel this is because a) Door buttons are inconsistend (some look like grey panels and others like pc's), don't seem to work all the time and not always near the door. b) The lighting is too dark. The tunnel near chapel gives you no clues as to which way its going - a few floor bulbs or a semi-luminous stripe wouldhelp no end. I like dark - but the aliens don't get flashlights.
That said I quite like the map.
other issues:- I think the tram tunnel lines are too deadly - I can see a HA marines or an ono's getting really miffed at the instant death from lipping off the platform. Some graphical glitches/holes I died by standing too close to the wall on the lift near the tram tunnel ! Catwalks in wind tunnel have no supports and cant be seen from below - luminous striping/few spotslights? Also doors are virtually the same colour/texture as the walls?
[EDIT] You can see this map running on my server at the moment - please download it first! Server eaglec.homedns.org:27015 Name Eaglec (T) - NS v1.03[UK]
Driftwood: Its a work in progress. I will not be giving any hive area 2 entrances in this map because I do not think it is necessary, marines have come to expect a pincer at every major location in the maps so far and its not gonna happen in this one. I also disagree about the open space not working, open space CAN work in NS, but I may have to add a few more accessories for skulks to hide in/behind to make it more balanced. And of course, yes the pitch black areas are going to be edited a little. Im not removing the blue lights in chapel hallway, that is not a pitch black area, but further down where the chapel connects the hallway its pitch black and I have to fix it.
Eaglec: Excellent input, thank you. I have to track down what is causing the tram bug, it doesnt affect my PC when I run a server and its not a model or anything its just a regular func_train, so Im kinda stumped right now. I agree tram lines are too deadly this has been brought up, and it will be changed soon.
I understand where Driftwood is coming from, andromeda is pretty outrageous, but I don't think its a bad design. (Most people who have played it don't either, and we all agree it has areas that need fixing before its going to be playable, especially the facking tram bug!)
A few things. Marine respawn, the tunnel to the res node. The top arch. Please set those textures to world so they are not so strecthed.
Again marine respawn, as you walk down towards the crossroads you can see a brush looking into another one and it **** me off to watch the wall change texture depending where i walked.
The wind tunnel.....was pitch black. The walk way of was brigt yellow. You have that as a texture light or something? I could see no source for the flashing light either. Bugged the hell out of me. The earth texture is ****. it looks far too close, a sky texture would be better there.
The fence at the bottom, you can pass underneath it. I was being stopped by a giant earth from leaving the wind tunnel, that should not be happening.
The water texture in there didn't look like it was scrolling, more like it was flashing, i dislike that texture for it emmesly, please change it. Also scale it down, you must have hit fit because all i could see was a big streched flashing thing.
The tram, is it meant to do something?
The doors, nice idea having to open everything, freaking annoying though, half the doors have no button that is obvious, each door should have a clearly marked button, maybe put a spot light above it. Green if it works, red if it does not.
Far too dark. My screen is bright, i get complaints my maps are too dark, though to me they are fine, everyone else seems to need full brightness, if i have a problem then it is an issue, i do not want to have to play try and find the next spotlight.
Wind tunnel looks like crap with a sky texture where the world is, I tried it. The walkways ARE texlights, but Im changing it as we speak to different light style in the room in general.
Wall texture change depending on where you walked? Please explain and take a screenshot if possible you are the first to note that.
I am changing most of the doors so they do not have buttons.
Its staying dark. If you dont like it tough spored. I'm not changing the dark feel of the map.
^Requiem^: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will not be giving any hive area 2 entrances in this map because I do not think it is necessary, marines have come to expect a pincer at every major location in the maps so far and its not gonna happen in this one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Expecting lots of happy marines with this decision? It takes only one wall of lame to block the entrance into the hive and that WoL can be 2x2x2 since the entrances are so cramped. Tram can be blocked very easily with towers and chambers and instead of nearly useless, it becomes totally useless. I understand you wanting something different, but there is actually a reason why there are 2 ways into most key places in maps. With this design, marines need a siege or couple of GL:s to get into any hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also disagree about the open space not working, open space CAN work in NS, but I may have to add a few more accessories for skulks to hide in/behind to make it more balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Open space can work, but I don't see hangar's point? What does the huge open space accomplish other than stress server's and client's framerate? The largest open space in the official maps is Nothing's Great Viaduct which uses its space well. Your hangar is bigger, but it hardly uses its space.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I understand where Driftwood is coming from, andromeda is pretty outrageous, but I don't think its a bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The basic layout is ok, but it's the individual areas that IMHO don't work. Like I said, every hive should be changed and new routes leading to them created. But it is your map and you design it the way you feel is the best. I've had my say and will keep my silence from now on. Keep working on it, it's not really _all_ bad.
All in all the map was interesting but in my view lacked a few features to make it a true NS map.
On the plus side I perosnally liked the dark areas since it forces marines to use flashlights to check for aliens. Regardless of wat some people think dark places DO exist and in NS people who expect the whole map to be bright enough to see everything at any given time arent getting into the ''feel'' of Natural-Selection. The apprehension of walking into a dark hallway (a-la the promo for NS) and looking all around with a flashlight is exactly the kind of scenario that SHOULD exist in the game. Also lights DO go out. these are essentially maps which have been invaded by aliens and abandoned by humans, and things TO break down! (or the skulks nibble on the cable). Perhaphs an acceptable compromise in this map would be to have a few more dark places but have the lights in places like the Computer control room Weldable on/off.
On the con side there are a few too many doors and big open spaces around to make this a true map. In areas like the atrium and the hanger the open spaces are just too large to make them strategically defendable and offer few places to hide in.
The Hive sites need more that one exit as the current exits via vents ultimately lead to the same place that the main hallways do, thus making it too easy for marines to take over. In the game we played the marines simply parked a siege center by the main entrance to all 3 hive sites and we had no alternate route to apprach it.
The key to having dark areas for skulk abushing is to make them not hurt the movement of players around the map from various locations. I agree with some other posters I have not done that yet. I'm going to do it tho.
Btw the lights in computer control are currently switchable by hitting the button. Gonna work on it some more today.
Comments
Two windows that I'd like to point out, hanger hive giant window and wind tunnel giant window (it is a window yes?)
Particularly the hanger one, I thought it could use a little depth like this window in the atrium [attached].
(continued in next post)
Download monster furniture entitie example below.
im working on a model for a giant 3d rotating earth (1st .mdl milkshape pracice)....
duh failed in framing compiling process in milkshape (its late)....
Anyway, I never had any problems with the map; the minimap works perfectly, and the tram doesn't dissapear. *shrug*. I did notice some weird stuff on the wall right outside the door to the hangar hive. It looks like when you fly through a wall with noclip (no texture there, maybe?).
This has to be the worst map that I've ever seen for NS in terms of playability.
Pros:
- Some places look good
- Idea of a dark map is all well and good...
- "Sirius" as the entry music is a good idea. Me likes.
Cons:
- Very bad overall layout with bad desing in most areas
- Way too dark
- There's no consistency, map seems to be just a bunch of different rooms thrown together
- Horrible noises from the elevators
- Number of glitches and bugs
- And much more
I'm sorry, but this map doesn't appeal to me in any way. You do know how to map, but this one is a stillborn. If you wish to make a map that becomes actually popular, you must have a solid idea about what you want to do. You can't just throw everything you think of into it and expect it to work. Kudos for the effort, but there are times when criticism is needed and this _is_ one of those times. Keep on mapping however, I would like to see what you can make with a better plan and some self-restraint about the ideas you would like to implement.
its awsome weather you give positive or negative critizim, but if you do dont just say, o you had **** map design, please Explain what you mean, dont just list a few things and expect anything to come of it. the places that look good, why do you think they do, the ones that look bad why also? bad overall layout and bad designing in most areas.. compared to? how so? its Dark for a Reason, aliens use the dark to there advantage, marines have flashlights... Use them...on the consistancy there is Some but it does randomly jump to different styles with the paradise lost and the church, all which are awsome ideas, but maby not all for the same map. and that one elevator noize...drives me freaking batty....the loud screeching one. u can hear it from the marine start. -and much more-<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> dont write that, that helps No one, if you want the map improved u Need to say what much more is, its in its beta its not finished, it still has bugs like all new maps do, but to help yourself in getting a revamped better map and help requiem design a map playable for NS that people can all enjoy, im not saying everyone likes every map, maby this just isint your map, but if your going to critize d0 it in detale or theres no point to it
its awsome weather you give positive or negative critizim, but if you do dont just say, o you had **** map design, please Explain what you mean, dont just list a few things and expect anything to come of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was in fact that the concept of this map is in my opinion so bad, that it can't be improved much by changing some parts of it.
I don't see any point in going into details with a map that doesn't in my opinion do even its basics right. Those who feel Andromeda is a good concept can give their opinions about tweaking it. I can only suggest that Requiem should do a map that a) has a clear concept and b) is believable. NS isn't about realism, but you have to maintain some illusion of realism in the maps. Andromeda doesn't do that. It feels like it has every neat thing Requiem came up with while planning it and that isn't exactly good.
So my criticism isn't about details, because I don't see any reason to go into them. I do realise that not every map has to be believable and some people like to do the unbelievable in their maps. However, I don't feel it makes a very good NS map.
Edit: But if the mapper really wants to hear my suggestions about improving this map then here is few:
1. Hives seem to have only one entrance. This is bad and should be fixed. Wind tunnel for example is ridiculously hard to get to.
2. Every hive should be replaced with new designs. Wind tunnel is just plain stupid and Chapel has bad layout. Hangar looks rather good but open space this big doesn't work.
3. Pitch black places have to go. Especially the tunnel with blue lights and the computer control(?) with red lighting.
1) My server suffered the disappearing tram bug. I really dont think re-installing NS is nesessary as I have it running perfectly with all the other mods, hlg, adminmod etc. Requiem, If you are interested I can probably give you system access to look at it and see whats up (its running on WinXP Pro)? Until these problems are fixed it wont find it's way into my regular mapcycle. (I also had the missing minimap but I renamed the spr so that should be ok)
2) It is too difficult to navigate. I spent ages as a gorge tring to get from chapel to 'any other hive'. Ifeel this is because
a) Door buttons are inconsistend (some look like grey panels and others like pc's),
don't seem to work all the time and not always near the door.
b) The lighting is too dark. The tunnel near chapel gives you no clues as to which
way its going - a few floor bulbs or a semi-luminous stripe wouldhelp no end.
I like dark - but the aliens don't get flashlights.
That said I quite like the map.
other issues:-
I think the tram tunnel lines are too deadly - I can see a HA marines or an ono's getting really miffed at the instant death from lipping off the platform.
Some graphical glitches/holes
I died by standing too close to the wall on the lift near the tram tunnel !
Catwalks in wind tunnel have no supports and cant be seen from below - luminous striping/few spotslights?
Also doors are virtually the same colour/texture as the walls?
[EDIT]
You can see this map running on my server at the moment - please download it first!
Server eaglec.homedns.org:27015
Name Eaglec (T) - NS v1.03[UK]
Eaglec: Excellent input, thank you. I have to track down what is causing the tram bug, it doesnt affect my PC when I run a server and its not a model or anything its just a regular func_train, so Im kinda stumped right now. I agree tram lines are too deadly this has been brought up, and it will be changed soon.
I understand where Driftwood is coming from, andromeda is pretty outrageous, but I don't think its a bad design. (Most people who have played it don't either, and we all agree it has areas that need fixing before its going to be playable, especially the facking tram bug!)
Back to work!
A few things. Marine respawn, the tunnel to the res node. The top arch. Please set those textures to world so they are not so strecthed.
Again marine respawn, as you walk down towards the crossroads you can see a brush looking into another one and it **** me off to watch the wall change texture depending where i walked.
The wind tunnel.....was pitch black. The walk way of was brigt yellow. You have that as a texture light or something? I could see no source for the flashing light either. Bugged the hell out of me. The earth texture is ****. it looks far too close, a sky texture would be better there.
The fence at the bottom, you can pass underneath it. I was being stopped by a giant earth from leaving the wind tunnel, that should not be happening.
The water texture in there didn't look like it was scrolling, more like it was flashing, i dislike that texture for it emmesly, please change it. Also scale it down, you must have hit fit because all i could see was a big streched flashing thing.
The tram, is it meant to do something?
The doors, nice idea having to open everything, freaking annoying though, half the doors have no button that is obvious, each door should have a clearly marked button, maybe put a spot light above it. Green if it works, red if it does not.
Far too dark. My screen is bright, i get complaints my maps are too dark, though to me they are fine, everyone else seems to need full brightness, if i have a problem then it is an issue, i do not want to have to play try and find the next spotlight.
Wall texture change depending on where you walked? Please explain and take a screenshot if possible you are the first to note that.
I am changing most of the doors so they do not have buttons.
Its staying dark. If you dont like it tough spored. I'm not changing the dark feel of the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will not be giving any hive area 2 entrances in this map because I do not think it is necessary, marines have come to expect a pincer at every major location in the maps so far and its not gonna happen in this one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Expecting lots of happy marines with this decision? It takes only one wall of lame to block the entrance into the hive and that WoL can be 2x2x2 since the entrances are so cramped. Tram can be blocked very easily with towers and chambers and instead of nearly useless, it becomes totally useless. I understand you wanting something different, but there is actually a reason why there are 2 ways into most key places in maps. With this design, marines need a siege or couple of GL:s to get into any hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also disagree about the open space not working, open space CAN work in NS, but I may have to add a few more accessories for skulks to hide in/behind to make it more balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Open space can work, but I don't see hangar's point? What does the huge open space accomplish other than stress server's and client's framerate? The largest open space in the official maps is Nothing's Great Viaduct which uses its space well. Your hangar is bigger, but it hardly uses its space.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I understand where Driftwood is coming from, andromeda is pretty outrageous, but I don't think its a bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The basic layout is ok, but it's the individual areas that IMHO don't work. Like I said, every hive should be changed and new routes leading to them created. But it is your map and you design it the way you feel is the best. I've had my say and will keep my silence from now on. Keep working on it, it's not really _all_ bad.
On the plus side I perosnally liked the dark areas since it forces marines to use flashlights to check for aliens. Regardless of wat some people think dark places DO exist and in NS people who expect the whole map to be bright enough to see everything at any given time arent getting into the ''feel'' of Natural-Selection. The apprehension of walking into a dark hallway (a-la the promo for NS) and looking all around with a flashlight is exactly the kind of scenario that SHOULD exist in the game. Also lights DO go out. these are essentially maps which have been invaded by aliens and abandoned by humans, and things TO break down! (or the skulks nibble on the cable). Perhaphs an acceptable compromise in this map would be to have a few more dark places but have the lights in places like the Computer control room Weldable on/off.
On the con side there are a few too many doors and big open spaces around to make this a true map. In areas like the atrium and the hanger the open spaces are just too large to make them strategically defendable and offer few places to hide in.
The Hive sites need more that one exit as the current exits via vents ultimately lead to the same place that the main hallways do, thus making it too easy for marines to take over. In the game we played the marines simply parked a siege center by the main entrance to all 3 hive sites and we had no alternate route to apprach it.
Btw the lights in computer control are currently switchable by hitting the button. Gonna work on it some more today.
Keep the feedback coming.