What did you struggle with the most, as a rookie?
BeigeAlert
Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
Hey everybody!
In an effort to help increase our player base and make the game easier to learn, we're looking into a potential overhaul of the tutorial/training system that's in the game now.
What I'd like to hear from the community is what did you struggle with the most as a rookie?
To give an example, I personally had a tough time practicing as higher alien lifeforms mainly because mistakes are rewarded with death and a long wait before being able to get any more game time in with those lifeforms. At the time, there was the combat mod which provided an excellent means to practice again and again, against real players, with very similar game mechanics. Unfortunately the combat mod is no longer around, and Combat: Standalone is a very different game all-together.
If anybody has any suggestions, I'd love to hear those as well.
In an effort to help increase our player base and make the game easier to learn, we're looking into a potential overhaul of the tutorial/training system that's in the game now.
What I'd like to hear from the community is what did you struggle with the most as a rookie?
To give an example, I personally had a tough time practicing as higher alien lifeforms mainly because mistakes are rewarded with death and a long wait before being able to get any more game time in with those lifeforms. At the time, there was the combat mod which provided an excellent means to practice again and again, against real players, with very similar game mechanics. Unfortunately the combat mod is no longer around, and Combat: Standalone is a very different game all-together.
If anybody has any suggestions, I'd love to hear those as well.
Comments
Positioning and how to engage a marine or group of marines which are very related skills.
Oh, also teamwork with tactics. (first 120 hours)
I think we all struggled with trying to shoot those pesky little skulks right?
1800 hours later and i'm still bad at this.
#1 thing challenging about rookies is that they get their butts kicked and discouraged due to not being used to tracking/aiming at fast moving objects and running on the ground in a straight line as skulks.
Since I started playing NS right before 1.03 dropped and no one knew what they were doing, I can't say that my perspective as a rookie is completely helpful. But, I quit NS after 3.x and came back to play a few times after several years away and everyone was so much better than me that it just crushed my motivation to play.
I think one thing that really needs to be stressed is that even if you're not good at killing other players, you can still be helpful to the team.
Too many times new players get caught up in a massive marine ball that stalemates at a particular front and instead of doing something helpful (building, attacking back res, sniping upgrades) they just continually suicide into a meatgrinder.
The other thing is the lack of map knowledge. Since they don't know where to go, people yelling "get to <xyz>" will only confuse them.
The new tutorial needs to emphasize that the game isn't just deathmatch+, in fact, you might start the tutorial off by introducing the minimap button (after basic movement controls) and asking the player to walk to a certain room.
My biggest issue is the lack of clear reasoning why bad things are happening to me or what it is I'm supposed to be doing to support the team towards victory.
- It's inherently so foreign to anything they've played before, which 1000% of the time is a game with a gun
- They will have to be a skulk for large portions of the game, as it's the first lifeform
- They _will_ die repeatedly running at marines, and conclude it's too hard/game sucks/unbalanced game!111!!eleven
- Being forced to play it as the start lifeform and dying a lot, they will start to play mostly on marines, leading to more experienced players going alien in team balances leading to repeated marine stomping -- again too hard/game sucks/unbalanced game!111!!eleven
- They quit and blame the game
If we could teach skulking from the beginning -- climb walls, ambush, crouch for silence, which upgrades to get etc and give them a good first experience, the above would be (largely, give or take) negated I hope.Edit: anecdote -- in my green days as a skulk I went from dying repeatedly to dying less by using the walls, crouching, etc and thought I was good. Then I met a skulk as a marine that ran circles around me before attacking and suddenly it clicked. Using the walls wasn't enough, I had to keep moving and using all parts of the environment -- circling over the roof and down sometimes -- to close the distance. This also had the advantage of the marine expending his clip, and as we all know the best time to bite is when he's reloading. That needs to be taught, as it keeps the skulks alive and helps them get kills, leading to a rewarding experience as a skulk.
This. A million times this. Well said, sir!
I played extensively on day 0, 1 and 2 ( along with my eternally grateful for team mate, or sometimes opponent, -=C=-, very, very few non greens at launch ) - it was quite hard to get players to be familiar with opening the map etc. I think it was some many months after release that I personally discovered the J key. Very hard to get players to venture across the map.
There probably needed to be a (skippable) little into video when launching that stated with (in a deep sexy voice): " Doom, Doom, Doom, Put aside all notions of any game you have played (except BZ98, ahem)" Kind of like "welcome to dark souls 2 FPS. With Aliens, and Marines" - actually, can we get the Throne Watchers Blade added?
Simply, where is the 'basics' video of the game, in game, presented by Charlie and his sexy boss voice? Not the community tutorials we had many patches after release, that level of introduction needed to come form a position of authority.
I'm not sure which version this was and whether something has changed, but I guess most of this still applies.
I'll try to separate this to a few key points for clarity.
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First of all, absorbing the information from the HUD often felt like a game of whack-a-mole. Many things have popup icons and flashy HUD elements and it's very hard to find the essential things you need to know. For example at some point ducking displayed a separate icon, a flashy score number popped up on each kill and so on. It feels like a crazy 90s web page with all the flashy stuff there and your brain feels stressed while trying to figure out which bits of information are important.
With these huge modern screens and resolutions, you can often have quite a lot of information available on your screen permanently without anything being too obstructive. Making important details and information stick to the screen permanently calms things down a lot and allows you to absorb the information constantly rather than trying to catch every popup at the very moment it shows up.
I guess one good way to look at permanent HUD elements would be to put you into a situation where you've just joined the server in the middle of an ongoing round and want to figure out who's winning and what you should be doing to contribute to your team's victory. The things you check first are probably something you should have permanently visible on your HUD or clearly highlighted and accessible in scoreboard and map screens.
Also, little things like highlighting the player and key buildings on the map screen could help a lot in understanding your position on the map. I recall having to take time to find myself on the map before I learned the maps inside out. Either a small animation or a more highlighted icon to pinpoint your location and key structures on the map could make a huge difference in understanding the map with a brief glimpse.
Also, one minor detail I noticed about the gun HUD is that I usually take the mental notes about my ammo reserves the very moment I reload. At that point the ammo status HUD is all over the place due to the reload animation and makes you feel really frustrated at first.
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Another issue was the game menus. There were a lot of things I knew I wanted to configure, but it still took me a long while to find them in the options menus. For example key bindings were all clumped up in a seemingly random list. I knew I wanted my map somewhere more accessible key than 'm', but it still took a while to find the binding on the list and even then I might have overwritten something else useful in the process.
I also knew about wallhop and wanted to learn it. I tried doing it and couldn't quite catch the thing consistently for some reason. At that point I had to ask a friend to figure out the LAN server settings that allowed me to get more information about the speed gain. It felt very clunky method of learning a relatively easy movement method. Once again more direct feedback or more available practise environment would go a long way.
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In general the feedback needs more refinement. The damage feedback exists, but it doesn't do much to differentiate different damage amounts and sources. As a result in a chaotic situation it was pretty hard to tell whether you just took a life threatening bite or mildly harmful spike damage. The low HP HUD effect usually kicked in so late that I was already too late to respond to the threat.
Pain sounds in response to rapid damage are tremendously useful. They allow you to differentiate big damage instances effectively. For example if you 'OOOMPH' with every major shotgun blast or bite you take, you suddenly become very aware of the HP count even when you're not looking at your exact value on the HUD. The pain sound also give you a clear indication on when you should be checking the HUD to see the exact value.
I'm not sure about the exact mechanics NS1 emplyoed, but I felt really comfortable about my HP management in it. I think it's combination of pain sounds, distinct sound effects, slight knockbacks and all that that makes it feel so intuitive in the longer run. It might be worth checking out what kind of mechanics and sounds were used there.
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Obviously a lot of these points are for slightly more advanced players, but I feel a lot of these help even total rookies to recognise the important bits they should be observing while playing NS2. A lot of the correct reactions happen instinctively when the important information and feedback are distinct enough, making the learning process itself far more intuitive than it was when I played NS2.
The first is movement / aim / positioning. Unlocking ambush. Basically : the tactics.
As @Martigen said the guy is coming from a game that was only a "guy with a gun" character.
- For the Marine side it won't be that much of a problem. Except that skulks have to be handled differently than the regular FPS game opponent. They hide, they are sneaky, malicious...
- For the alien side there is the need for extra practice so they can learn the moves (wall jump, leap, Blink, Glide).
This can be practiced in a interactive tutorial like the one that is already here. It just needs some new sections. Also it can be the moment for the rookies to set the extra keybindings they need. That is why i was asking in the other thread. This can remove a huge part of the work before the rookies get to a class.As @Wheeee described there is something about how to help the team (the strategic layer).
That; I'm afraid, cannot be fulfilled with an interactive tutorial. Maybe one or two sequences like ARCing a hive and the mission is to cover the ARCs etc... but not more.
This side is relying on knowing the game, the maps, the priorities and teamwork.
- I can only think of a system that make people get together and practice.
- It helps rookies leveling up to a point they're good.
- It shows them a community wiling to help
- It breaks the "i don't say anything coz i'm noob". This is the worst that can happen. Some cannot be help on that matter but most of them can. Breaking the silence is the first step.
That is why I'm asking for an interface that can make people organize all they want . Class, practicing with other players, etc. Even matchmaking if you want. If you provide all the means (communication / schedule / organization) into the game with some kind of status (teacher, helper, rookie). It will be far easier to get them into the game.Even to create a teaching program that delivers certification (or badges). If the rookies goes through X or Y tutorial / lesson (s)he gets something out of it. So everybody know what they can expect just by looking at the hive profile (or a special scoreboard). It requires teachers, and a program (each section has a goal).
That's why i do not think video would help much. A community game has to be a community thing (or some sort).
My first issue with NS (NS1) was i didn't know what to do. After the first game which didn't failed (But i wasn't fully operational); i had to check the documentation. At the time i had to look for it; instead of agreeing to go through a tutorial or doc. So make sure they see the tutorial part. I do think "servers" shouldn't be the first menu entry. As long as they didn't go through a tutorial, it should be firsts IMO.
This is not something that I struggled to understand, I think I realized it fairly early on, but it never the less helped me in my decision making, to think of my HP as a resource I need to spend, in order for marines to spend his resource of bullets. Sneak attacks were all good and all, but it wasn't really my style. Instead I'd announce my presence by a head on attack, and then juke all the bullets out of my opponent before engaging. Even if the marine manages to get me, the hope is that my team mates will find and opening to finish him off.
On the flip side, as marine I realized that I needed to preserve my ammo - wait til I'm certain that my bullets will connect.
Later you can expand on this idea, i.e. 'bait' aliens in by making them believe you're vulnerable.
Tl;dr - Bullets are resources, don't waste them. - Play gathers.
Yeah, I had the same problem in ns1. I had no idea what I should do or how things worked. I was just following experienced players for two weeks and tried to mimic them and at least support at a basic level (building, welding etc.). Then I still thought as Lerk, that umbra would attack armor and structures. I mean, green damages health....yellow must be an upgrade and therefor do something similar....yeah, damaging armor it is. The other players are shooting it at HAs...that must be it. -> lack or information and a good tutorial.
My greatest challenge in ns2 was: to play ns2 with a recommended system. Every fight my game froze for a microsecond and I was an easy target. Horrible experience.
I still wonder why so many people have problems to remember some map layouts and why they would rather play 3-5 maps over and over again instead of learning dozens of custom maps. It's a challange, it is easy and a necessity. People should be happy about new content and new contests. Since when turned "free stuff, let's play it" to "eeehh, I don't want to be bothered to learn the map, let's play summit". Something between ns1 and ns2 changed the heart of young boys and girls
Sometimes I think that the game design stops people from learning maps because the alien res defense is so dumb with the cysting mechanics as they are
Do you mean that you don't see the map because you are defending all the time? Just load up the map and run around. 10 minutes should be enough to figure the map roughly out.
- Watching the minimap for unit movements
- Checking vents and corners for skulks
- Tracking resource income and tech for both your team and the enemies
- Figuring out positioning for each room
- How does each lifeform play
- Learning what buildings do what
All of this learned with people yelling what needs to be done in a live game, expecting that everyone knows whats going on.
Cannot stress enough the value of a "Hazard Course" type training mission for both aliens and marines, so all this can be learned without people yelling at you.
Encouraging rookies to use a microphone if they have one, or at least Y(team chat) in a tutorial might be beneficial. Include a few examples of what would be a good idea to share with the team, such as "onos in courtyard" or "base rush coming."
Encouraging use of map key and possible showing how veterans use it could speed up the map learning process and create better situational awareness of what is happening. It might even show rookies the tactical side of the game.
I am never asked how to see what is researching. A tutorial that shows what the J(tech tree) key does, could show rookies what the importance of the commander, what is researching, and even what can be researched.
I really like this idea and it could help rookies. When viewing the tech tree (J key), be able to mouse over the icons show a little text box that tells what the item is and what it does.
No I mean people can't figure out how to play other maps, so they play the same ones. I'm not being super clear haha. In NS1 people knew more maps because every map was fun in special ways, but in NS2 you're immediately roped into the res defense, so it limits maps and how much people care about new/different/exciting ones
Get the importance of aggression and teamwork across at least, the finer details get learned later.
That and learning the Alien's skills, nothing more upsetting than your first ono's.. feeling invincible only to die in 20seconds to a squad of marines
Without heavily scripted tutorials it will be hard to get these across because were all too stubborn to run around in sandbox mode.
Playing alien on a 42 slot server is like pain in the ass.
You always run into 5-6 marines no matter where you go there.
And on top of that you are learning the wrong basics:
- positioning is not really needed
- mapawaress not needed
- aim is not needed (im sure marines hitting there teammates more than the enemy)
People who have "learned" the game on a 42 slot server dont have a real feeling about important situations.
So you want a better experience for rookies?
Then get rid of these clusterfuck.
It encouraged teamwork by rewarding points to players near a capture point if it was successfully captured, among other things. It rewarded not just the person capping the point, but those covering them and keeping them alive while they did it. So aside from winning the game, a group reward, there was also points, a personal reward.
What if:
And perhaps a division of these points at the end of the round gets added to whatever hive score you earned/lost (so even if your team lost, if you were a good team player perhaps your hive score doesn't go down as much).
I'll admit it's not an easy scheme to implement though. Eg, perhaps you could reward all people in a hive room when the hive dies, since they were attacking as a team. But it's just as important in teamwork for that lone guy going off re-capping res while the rest of the team is attacking, so this might dis-incentivize that behaviour.
Anyway, some thoughts.
I actually agree with what you are saying, even though I frequent high population servers regularly I do think it is a double edged sword, like it or not these servers are popular and we cannot take the chance of disbanding these high pop servers in favor of a better NS2 experience considering the small community that NS2 has left.
If anything I suggest a minimum skill rating / hours played before letting rookies be able to join these high pop servers, this will in essence teach them what NS2 really is, smaller scale tactics, positioning, organisation instead of organised chaos. This would be a more favorable solution as opposed to killing off the servers completely.