i'm really starting to feel the need to use my other account in order to be able to command and have decent games. this is how it usually happens... map loads, everybody is in the ready room. people initiate a shuffle no matter how poorly setup the previous games with it were, and (correct me if i'm wrong here) I am now being stacked against heavily because I have a 3k+ skill rating. you can not command or play something like gorge with that.
whoever said it earlier is right, at the moment the system is setup so you either carry the team or lose horribly if you have a high rating. please note that it's not the fact that I lose that bothers me, more so that it's not going to be a good game if I want to do something besides skulk into fade or play in specific servers that are only populated at specific times.
But @turtsmcgurt, really if that is the case then the system works right?
Every matchmaking / balance system concievable is gonna have the effect of 'demanding' performance in line with the normal skilllevel an individual has.
And a good commander and a good gorge can both make the difference in win / lose, it just wont reflect in K/D or points as much.
Edit: Actually what you should do is just play anythng you want and after awhile your skillrating is gonna reflect your overall skill better (so fielding, comming and gorging, in the mix).
But @turtsmcgurt, really if that is the case then the system works right?
Every matchmaking / balance system concievable is gonna have the effect of 'demanding' performance in line with the normal skilllevel an individual has.
And a good commander and a good gorge can both make the difference in win / lose, it just wont reflect in K/D or points as much.
Edit: Actually what you should do is just play anythng you want and after awhile your skillrating is gonna reflect your overall skill better (so fielding, comming and gorging, in the mix).
No. Your fade being much more effective than your gorge is not going to change because of whatever your hive skill value is. The only difference is whether it will be closer to your fade or gorge, if it is close to your gorge's skill value you will in theory absolutely stomp when you fade.
But @turtsmcgurt, really if that is the case then the system works right?
Every matchmaking / balance system concievable is gonna have the effect of 'demanding' performance in line with the normal skilllevel an individual has.
And a good commander and a good gorge can both make the difference in win / lose, it just wont reflect in K/D or points as much.
Edit: Actually what you should do is just play anythng you want and after awhile your skillrating is gonna reflect your overall skill better (so fielding, comming and gorging, in the mix).
No. Your fade being much more effective than your gorge is not going to change because of whatever your hive skill value is. The only difference is whether it will be closer to your fade or gorge, if it is close to your gorge's skill value you will in theory absolutely stomp when you fade.
Yes. You might stomp as a fade but the problem @turtsmcgurt describes (in your scenario always having to fade-carry) will be solved. Right?
But @turtsmcgurt, really if that is the case then the system works right?
Every matchmaking / balance system concievable is gonna have the effect of 'demanding' performance in line with the normal skilllevel an individual has.
And a good commander and a good gorge can both make the difference in win / lose, it just wont reflect in K/D or points as much.
Edit: Actually what you should do is just play anythng you want and after awhile your skillrating is gonna reflect your overall skill better (so fielding, comming and gorging, in the mix).
No. Your fade being much more effective than your gorge is not going to change because of whatever your hive skill value is. The only difference is whether it will be closer to your fade or gorge, if it is close to your gorge's skill value you will in theory absolutely stomp when you fade.
Yes. You might stomp as a fade but the problem @turtsmcgurt describes (in your scenario always having to fade-carry) will be solved. Right?
No? You are just swapping one problem for another. Instead of always playing fade for even games you changed it to always gorge. You are not solving anything.
I've always found in games no matter how skilled an individual is, teamwork will always win, it only becomes a real problem once multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side THEN sheer skill will win out.
When fighting highly skilled players I always considered it a challenge, as you don't improve by stomping.
I'm going to quote an old quote that I used to use years ago.
"Experience is a hard teacher, she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." - Vernon Law
I've always found in games no matter how skilled an individual is, teamwork will always win, it only becomes a real problem once multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side THEN sheer skill will win out.
When fighting highly skilled players I always considered it a challenge, as you don't improve by stomping.
I'm going to quote an old quote that I used to use years ago.
"Experience is a hard teacher, she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." - Vernon Law
That's amusing. What makes you assume skilled players have no teamwork?
most smurfs come in, dont communicate, dont respond to communication. They just come in play it safe and rack up kills for their precious kdr. And when they do communicate...if they do its to bitch out the team for being noobs. imo
points, hive skill, kdr, all shouldnt be part of a team game like this.
The hive skill is mostly correct and pretty accurate when it comes to putting people into tiers, there is no denying that. The issue is when people insist on using a simple shuffle mechanic in such a complex game when it doesn't have all the necessary data. (race / lifeform / commander specific skill ratings)
High hive skill = knowing what team to stack...ftw
for most ppl that is. but some ppl are stupid good and i can see the hive skill works a little bit. and then you get more stacking because hive skill chasers stack with those "actually good players" etc, causing even crappier games but it keeps raising your score. and thats what everyone is looking at.
I've always found in games no matter how skilled an individual is, teamwork will always win, it only becomes a real problem once multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side THEN sheer skill will win out.
When fighting highly skilled players I always considered it a challenge, as you don't improve by stomping.
I'm going to quote an old quote that I used to use years ago.
"Experience is a hard teacher, she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." - Vernon Law
That's amusing. What makes you assume skilled players have no teamwork?
Quite a few actually, most smurfs I've encountered work alone, if you read carefully I said it only becomes a real problem when multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side, where they can either choose to carry on working alone or work together, it doesn't matter the end result is the same. Please read.
I've always found in games no matter how skilled an individual is, teamwork will always win, it only becomes a real problem once multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side THEN sheer skill will win out.
When fighting highly skilled players I always considered it a challenge, as you don't improve by stomping.
I'm going to quote an old quote that I used to use years ago.
"Experience is a hard teacher, she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." - Vernon Law
That's amusing. What makes you assume skilled players have no teamwork?
Quite a few actually, most smurfs I've encountered work alone, if you read carefully I said it only becomes a real problem when multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side, where they can either choose to carry on working alone or work together, it doesn't matter the end result is the same. Please read.
I did read, you were saying teamwork > skill unless skill > teamwork. The assumption then is that skill = no teamwork, isn't it? What am I not understanding?
Anyhow, regarding work alone players, yes, there are skilled players who play by themselves, but that applies to non-skilled players as well. To me, skilled players have more teamwork than non-skilled players.
The smurfers are starting to win me over with the good arguments.
I myself have a 2200 skill score, which is reasonably average for a veteran. If I play in a game where my teams average skill is more than a couple hundred lower than mine then I know the skill system has accounted for that by giving my team worse players than the opposition. It totally blocks me from going command or playing gorge. I usually double check by quickly going to the ready room to see how much my teams average drops without me. That shows what the "field" skill would be if I commanded. Usually it indicates a stomp if I command so I don't
I don't see any way around it either. If you didn't include the commanders skill in the display then that is exploitable as a team can change commanders at any time. You also cannot predict which life forms people will evolve too.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Ya know, if a subtle small reshuffle were to automatically occur once commanders were picked that issue could be resolved...
(often times after a reshuffle initially occurs, you'd only need to swap or 2 players to even it back out again if a field player is counted out)
Trouble is ppl wont do that. When ppl see an unbalanced game and they are on the "winning team" they wont change. Even if they are up more players. I see it all the time.
Ya know, if a subtle small reshuffle were to automatically occur once commanders were picked that issue could be resolved...
(often times after a reshuffle initially occurs, you'd only need to swap or 2 players to even it back out again if a field player is counted out)
Maybe also allowing aliens to designate gorges. Like @turtsmcgurt was saying, if you're one of the highest "skill" players on the team, you pretty much have to carry as the balance algorithm assumes you're always playing your best. There's just no room to experiment.
I've even started just joining mid-game on aliens just so I can gorge.
Trouble is ppl wont do that. When ppl see an unbalanced game and they are on the "winning team" they wont change. Even if they are up more players. I see it all the time.
I'll admit, I'm a little bit conscientious of my hive score. I'm hesitant to join the losing team if they're down a bunch of players b/c I don't want to lose hive points in the name of helping a team that was full of f4-ers anyways, especially if the game is going to be over in <1 minute anyways.
@BeigeAlert that won't work, because nothing prevents a high-level player from gorging for a while then switching. Or, never going gorge in the first place (I think you'd agree that forcing someone into a lifeform is a bad thing).
He commented about how marines and aliens don't both have an equal chance of "base rushing".
In such a tangential manner it added nothing to the discussion in quotes, much like my post was to you... The real discussion was not about how not to get base rushed, but the assumption that...
Both teams have over time have equal chance to base rush, therefor in the long run base rushes do not effect skill. If you drop 40 points from a base rush, you will probably gain it back.
No, this assumes you play both marines and aliens at an equal distribution, and also that both marines and aliens have an equal chance of success at a base rush (which is not true).
Sorry @IronHorse, I was not trying to imply your messages are deliberately too complicated, I think you are one of the few people who can articulate themselves well (as I've mentioned in my "dangerous influence" comments before )
my main goal was to make sure everybody was on the same page about what "base rushing" constituted. And allude to the fact that base rushing is only something that aliens can really accomplish. In almost every scenario where marines are sitting early in a hive, it's because aliens have been crushed outright.
High hive skill = knowing what team to stack...ftw
This is not true, as the skill system does not work that way. This has been discussed at length in multiple threads about the skill system. Please, do not lash out at the system without doing some research first.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited July 2015
I wouldn't play, at all, if it wasn't for the hive skill system. This game just isn't as fun to play as NS1 was, so the incentive of ELO was there after I stopped playing fucking League of Legends. And I farmed my ELO by carrying on medi's No Rookies Captains 350+hrs server.
I know it was working because I went from 1000 to 2000 winning every game because I would get picked low, and in most cases I was a steal of a 4th/5th pick. Once I got to 2300 the climbing has been alot harder since I get picked in the first two rounds, so more is riding on my pick.
So, even though the people there knew I was a better pick than some 2000 skill players, they were always hesitant to pick me until I got the 2000~ also.
To me, I think this is working very well. Veteran Captains server is sort of an anomaly, but it attests to the idea that the hive system is pretty damn fine, but the player-base isn't big enough to always get like-skilled games with players of your experience level.
On the other hand do I think that loosing 60 pts for some games, when the're usually the worst games, is kind of broken? Yes, it pisses me off, I think there should be a lower cap or something, but I'd say that for the most part it's fair.
It also made me realize that taking a leadership role of having your map open yelling at people by name and telling them what to do and what they're doing wrong will net you more wins then a going 20/0 in 10 minutes on either team. I die alot looking at my mapping directing other when I'm trying to win pts. Then I stopped doing that cause I was bored of it but still wanted to play. I dropped from 2400-->2000 rather quickly. Started again, up to 2500. (Had some rough games so I'm at 2390 or something atm)
tl;dr
Skill system is very accurate on a per server basis
edit: So I would really like to try smurfing on Captains server to see if it happens in the same way. I've never bought a 2nd copy for myself, but I don't think it would be a major issue if I were to keep to that one server.
Comments
Watch the video in Meph's post:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2244598/#Comment_2244598
whoever said it earlier is right, at the moment the system is setup so you either carry the team or lose horribly if you have a high rating. please note that it's not the fact that I lose that bothers me, more so that it's not going to be a good game if I want to do something besides skulk into fade or play in specific servers that are only populated at specific times.
Every matchmaking / balance system concievable is gonna have the effect of 'demanding' performance in line with the normal skilllevel an individual has.
And a good commander and a good gorge can both make the difference in win / lose, it just wont reflect in K/D or points as much.
Edit: Actually what you should do is just play anythng you want and after awhile your skillrating is gonna reflect your overall skill better (so fielding, comming and gorging, in the mix).
No. Your fade being much more effective than your gorge is not going to change because of whatever your hive skill value is. The only difference is whether it will be closer to your fade or gorge, if it is close to your gorge's skill value you will in theory absolutely stomp when you fade.
Yes. You might stomp as a fade but the problem @turtsmcgurt describes (in your scenario always having to fade-carry) will be solved. Right?
No? You are just swapping one problem for another. Instead of always playing fade for even games you changed it to always gorge. You are not solving anything.
When fighting highly skilled players I always considered it a challenge, as you don't improve by stomping.
I'm going to quote an old quote that I used to use years ago.
"Experience is a hard teacher, she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." - Vernon Law
That's amusing. What makes you assume skilled players have no teamwork?
The hive skill is mostly correct and pretty accurate when it comes to putting people into tiers, there is no denying that. The issue is when people insist on using a simple shuffle mechanic in such a complex game when it doesn't have all the necessary data. (race / lifeform / commander specific skill ratings)
for most ppl that is. but some ppl are stupid good and i can see the hive skill works a little bit. and then you get more stacking because hive skill chasers stack with those "actually good players" etc, causing even crappier games but it keeps raising your score. and thats what everyone is looking at.
Down with hive score!!
Quite a few actually, most smurfs I've encountered work alone, if you read carefully I said it only becomes a real problem when multiple smurfs/high level players are stacked onto one side, where they can either choose to carry on working alone or work together, it doesn't matter the end result is the same. Please read.
I did read, you were saying teamwork > skill unless skill > teamwork. The assumption then is that skill = no teamwork, isn't it? What am I not understanding?
Anyhow, regarding work alone players, yes, there are skilled players who play by themselves, but that applies to non-skilled players as well. To me, skilled players have more teamwork than non-skilled players.
I myself have a 2200 skill score, which is reasonably average for a veteran. If I play in a game where my teams average skill is more than a couple hundred lower than mine then I know the skill system has accounted for that by giving my team worse players than the opposition. It totally blocks me from going command or playing gorge. I usually double check by quickly going to the ready room to see how much my teams average drops without me. That shows what the "field" skill would be if I commanded. Usually it indicates a stomp if I command so I don't
I don't see any way around it either. If you didn't include the commanders skill in the display then that is exploitable as a team can change commanders at any time. You also cannot predict which life forms people will evolve too.
(often times after a reshuffle initially occurs, you'd only need to swap or 2 players to even it back out again if a field player is counted out)
Maybe also allowing aliens to designate gorges. Like @turtsmcgurt was saying, if you're one of the highest "skill" players on the team, you pretty much have to carry as the balance algorithm assumes you're always playing your best. There's just no room to experiment.
I've even started just joining mid-game on aliens just so I can gorge.
I'll admit, I'm a little bit conscientious of my hive score. I'm hesitant to join the losing team if they're down a bunch of players b/c I don't want to lose hive points in the name of helping a team that was full of f4-ers anyways, especially if the game is going to be over in <1 minute anyways.
my main goal was to make sure everybody was on the same page about what "base rushing" constituted. And allude to the fact that base rushing is only something that aliens can really accomplish. In almost every scenario where marines are sitting early in a hive, it's because aliens have been crushed outright.
This is not true, as the skill system does not work that way. This has been discussed at length in multiple threads about the skill system. Please, do not lash out at the system without doing some research first.
I know it was working because I went from 1000 to 2000 winning every game because I would get picked low, and in most cases I was a steal of a 4th/5th pick. Once I got to 2300 the climbing has been alot harder since I get picked in the first two rounds, so more is riding on my pick.
So, even though the people there knew I was a better pick than some 2000 skill players, they were always hesitant to pick me until I got the 2000~ also.
To me, I think this is working very well. Veteran Captains server is sort of an anomaly, but it attests to the idea that the hive system is pretty damn fine, but the player-base isn't big enough to always get like-skilled games with players of your experience level.
On the other hand do I think that loosing 60 pts for some games, when the're usually the worst games, is kind of broken? Yes, it pisses me off, I think there should be a lower cap or something, but I'd say that for the most part it's fair.
It also made me realize that taking a leadership role of having your map open yelling at people by name and telling them what to do and what they're doing wrong will net you more wins then a going 20/0 in 10 minutes on either team. I die alot looking at my mapping directing other when I'm trying to win pts. Then I stopped doing that cause I was bored of it but still wanted to play. I dropped from 2400-->2000 rather quickly. Started again, up to 2500. (Had some rough games so I'm at 2390 or something atm)
tl;dr
edit: So I would really like to try smurfing on Captains server to see if it happens in the same way. I've never bought a 2nd copy for myself, but I don't think it would be a major issue if I were to keep to that one server.