Formations?

pulsedsn · December 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Has anyone considered this?</div> Has anyone ever considered using marine formations, like telling your marines to maintain a staggered or split formation as they go through the map? When heading in a new direction the formation could just change positions, and the leader would be the one in the general direction headed, while the others adjust to this change.

Of course would be completely useless to even try in a public game, but if there is a clan match and people are well practiced with each other, does anyone think formations would be useful?

If so, what sort of formations?

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

DooM_Space_Marine · December 2002

Obviously, formations have to come in effect at one point or another in this game. If you're 3 Marines and you just go in a straight line, you'll shoot each others so you're as good as only 1, while if you spread the 3 marines in a V shape, you can cover each others entirely and have a much lower chance of wasting bullets. Then, you can also improvise with some "one is the lookout" formations, etc.. It can (and has) to be played with. Same for aliens, a dozen skulks in a line would be easier to kill than 3 skulks spread-out.

Fox2 · January 2003

I like this idea. Ever since release, whenever I play as a marine, I give real thought to where I am, where other marines are, and where a possible threat could be. My theories and practices in Natural Selection come from the real world, so formations would be a solid addition.

Speaking from a clearly technical standpoint, the types of formations will be limited in environments such as the closed quarters of the maps. The objective in a formation is to give the team the upper hand and quick response to any possible threat.

I'll detail some examples of formations that could be useful. In the following, "^" is the element leader and "o" represents squadmembers. Forgive the underscores, as the forum code won't allow me to make the diagrams I'd like.

Wedge

_____ ^
___ o __ o
_ o ______ o

The wedge formation is best used in more open, wide areas. The advantages to the formation are simple. Both the left and right flanks are covered, and each person in the formation knows his duties. Squad leader watches the direct front, the two in the second line watch his flanks, and the flank protectors watch the 2nd line. The major drawback to this formation is that the rear is not covered, but that could be remedied with a rear guard pulling the caboose.

Echelon (Left and Right)

^
_ o
__ o
___ o

or

_______ ^
______ o
_____ o
____ o

This formation is used if the only likely threat location is to one of the sides. Great for use if the train is following a wall. You get maximum firepower to the side flank that is most likely to be attacked. Drawback, again, is the rear is not covered. Again, easily remedied by a rear guard in tow.

These are just a couple of examples. There are many possibilities for ever-changing situations. Clanboys, use your imagination and try it out at practices.

As a side note: for doors, try another real world idea; Stack up. Have a guy on either side, one guy a bit back for cover, and then just fill in the gaps. Move in slowly, then return to formation. Make sure as you move in that everyone knows their assigned field of fire and where they need to look. Voice communication makes this easy.

Archzai · January 2003

ive got a formation
the CHRIS attack style <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> haha (my name is chris) <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

o= marines
x= me (Chris)
A= aliens

-o-o-------- X---------------- A ----- A (aliens are hiding)
---o----------------------------- A----A

on days when im feeling suicidal i run ahead and get chomped <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> that way my teamates know and are ready <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> hahhah <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> instead of losing 4 aliens to a few skulks.. only 1... and thats me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> haha

its something to do when im getting bored <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

EDIT: My diagrams were screwed up.. maybe thats why no one understoood wut i meant! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Narfwak · January 2003

Formations are a good idea, although they are often too difficult to implement. You usually never get enough marines in one place in use a formation, and almost never get them to follow a good formation like the ones Fox2 describes. The best use of formations is for covering a room, so that you can sit your butts down and have overlapping fields of fire while one guy builds some stuff.

Nicator · January 2003

One tjhing that almost always helps is having a 'tail end charlie, a bit behind most of the marines. Should be a good aim, and as a skulk jumps down on to the main pack of marines, he vapes it. I often play this role, and it seems to work quite well <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>.

humbaba · January 2003

In the late game, when you are facing large blast area weapons (Spore, Bile Bomb, Xenocide), a smart marine team keeps its men in a spread out, staggered formation at all times.

b00ted · January 2003

here ill draw diagrams <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

|---------|_________
|----------A-----A
|----------__A______
|---------|
|--X-----|
|---------|
|---------|
|X------X|

Hallway Flank 3v3 (Two Men In Back Cover 1 In Front)
A=Aliens
X=Marines

_____________
|------------------|
D------------------|
|------------------|
--|---======-----|
--|---======-----X1|
|X-------O-------------|
|------------------------|
|_____X_________|

Defending Objective 3v?
X=Marines
D=Doorway
O=Object.
X1=Spotter(Watching Doorway)

|------\
|-------\
|-A------\
|-------A-\________
|------------------M----M
|-----------______M__
|--------A--\

Funnel Rushed 3v3
X=Marines
A=Aliens

|---A----|
|---------|
|---X----|
|--X--X--|
|---------|
|--A----A-|

Pincer Attacked(You Lose)
X=Marines Dead Corpses In A Second <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>
A=Aliens

Enjoy.. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

WolfofShadows · January 2003

ACK! ATTACK OF TEH ASCII!!!!!

/me runs

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

Formations are great, but like you mentioned, you won't be able to pull them off in a public server. Personally, I like to stay towards the rear of a group, and move backwards to prevent any skulks from coming down behind the group and munching on everyone at once.

verbose · January 2003

The most important thing when working in a marine group is to NOT jump around like a madman when the skulks rush you. If you're the point man, by dancing around, you are blocking your teammates line of fire. Crouch and hold still, so they can fire around or over you. I have lost many a teammate to a lone skulk simply because my support fire hit nothing but the marines back. If he would have held bloody still, the skulk would have never lived long enough to bite once.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Jan 3 2003, 03:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The most important thing when working in a marine group is to NOT jump around like a madman when the skulks rush you. If you're the point man, by dancing around, you are blocking your teammates line of fire. Crouch and hold still, so they can fire around or over you. I have lost many a teammate to a lone skulk simply because my support fire hit nothing but the marines back. If he would have held bloody still, the skulk would have never lived long enough to bite once.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Amen to that! I've fallen victim to the same thing plenty of times. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

Another thing I forgot to add in my last post - choose your place in a formation by the weapon you have!

Got a shottie? Get up front and keep crouched when attacking. Have a welder? Cover down behind the HA/HMG guys in front of you and keep that welder out. Grenade launcher? Stay in the back and clear out the corners with some suppressive fire.

pulsedsn · January 2003

wow alot of replies =D

Kenichi · January 2003

You guys make it too complicated. 1 guy watches back. 4 in front. when under attack guys in front of the attack always duck.

TomCerul · January 2003

I've been thinking about this too, off and on. On a pub, where my non-clanned *bleep* usually plays, you have to be able to explain your formation in 1 or 2 concise sentences. So I'm thinking: "Find a buddy, one guy on the forward left, one on the back right. Leave 20 feet between each pair."

That gives you minimal interference for lines of fire. Both guys can shoot forward and back or right and left. The team is spread out enough that 1 crazy skulk can't chew everyone down in 3 seconds. If the first pair gets attacked, the second pair has some space ( == time) to shoot. Splash damage can only hit 2 marines at a time.

As in every other HL mod, if you have friends with guns behind you, crouch when you shoot. There's something special about not dieing in the middle of a reload because you crouched and your backup had a clean shot.

hmmm, wonder what you should do when your teammate is eaten. . . Do you stay on point as bait or do you fall back as defense? If there are 6 in the column, and the first guy gets munched... then bait. Getting in the middle of the other 2 pairs would interfer with their ability to help each other. Each pair would only have 1 person to back them up instead of 2.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>
|----|
|----|
|m--|
|--m|
|----|
|----|
|m--|
|--m|
|----|
|----|
|m--|
|--m|
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Legionnaired · January 2003

I don't think formations are as important as good room-clearing and flocking patterns.

(buh?)

Lemme explain.

When you enter a room, say with a 5 man marine squad, I believe this is how it should be done:

Point man moves up, and opens the door, 2 guys are 5 feet behind, looking inbetween the doorjam and the pointman on their sides. Pointman walks through the door, and looks up to check ceiling. As soon as he is clear, he gives a short voice command, and the two guys behind him move in around him, and check the corners of the room closest to them, checking top, botom, and middle, then moving and puting their backs against those corners.

Point man moves into the center of the room, and scans ahead of him, as the last 2 men, who have been looking behind the group, move into the room, and check and move into the remaining 2 corners of the room, them plant their backs against the wall. Point man reports area clear, and awaits instructions and buildings. He builds, no-one else, so that the room is covered by 4 marines at all times.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jan 4 2003, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't think formations are as important as good room-clearing and flocking patterns.

(buh?)

Lemme explain.

When you enter a room, say with a 5 man marine squad, I believe this is how it should be done:

Point man moves up, and opens the door, 2 guys are 5 feet behind, looking inbetween the doorjam and the pointman on their sides. Pointman walks through the door, and looks up to check ceiling. As soon as he is clear, he gives a short voice command, and the two guys behind him move in around him, and check the corners of the room closest to them, checking top, botom, and middle, then moving and puting their backs against those corners.

Point man moves into the center of the room, and scans ahead of him, as the last 2 men, who have been looking behind the group, move into the room, and check and move into the remaining 2 corners of the room, them plant their backs against the wall. Point man reports area clear, and awaits instructions and buildings. He builds, no-one else, so that the room is covered by 4 marines at all times.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Oh man. It's nice to find someone else that doesn't find all this "tactical" stuff overhyped. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

While NS sure isn't Rainbow Six or SWAT, people should try using this kind of thing more often.

Narfwak · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flatline[UTD] @ Jan 4 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jan 4 2003, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't think formations are as important as good room-clearing and flocking patterns.

(buh?)

Lemme explain.

When you enter a room, say with a 5 man marine squad, I believe this is how it should be done:

Point man moves up, and opens the door, 2 guys are 5 feet behind, looking inbetween the doorjam and the pointman on their sides. Pointman walks through the door, and looks up to check ceiling. As soon as he is clear, he gives a short voice command, and the two guys behind him move in around him, and check the corners of the room closest to them, checking top, botom, and middle, then moving and puting their backs against those corners.

Point man moves into the center of the room, and scans ahead of him, as the last 2 men, who have been looking behind the group, move into the room, and check and move into the remaining 2 corners of the room, them plant their backs against the wall. Point man reports area clear, and awaits instructions and buildings. He builds, no-one else, so that the room is covered by 4 marines at all times.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Oh man. It's nice to find someone else that doesn't find all this "tactical" stuff overhyped. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

While NS sure isn't Rainbow Six or SWAT, people should try using this kind of thing more often.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Agreed.

Gargamel · January 2003

Dont bother yourselves mates! Its all here! All you need to know to be a trained Frontiersman!
(Hey they really should put something like this in the Frontiersman Manual so at least every new player knows it exists!)
Read this if you wanna rule teamoriented!

<a href='http://www-benning.army.mil/rtb/RANGER/hdbook/Chapter14.htm' target='_blank'>Ranger Urban Operations Manual</a>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

Legionnaired · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gargamel @ Jan 5 2003, 04:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Dont bother yourselves mates! Its all here! All you need to know to be a trained Frontiersman!
(Hey they really should put something like this in the Frontiersman Manual so at least every new player knows it exists!)
Read this if you wanna rule teamoriented!

<a href='http://www-benning.army.mil/rtb/RANGER/hdbook/Chapter14.htm' target='_blank'>Ranger Urban Operations Manual</a>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
/me hits Ctrl-D

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

Read it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

I swear, my dream job would be a counter-sniper. Of course, if I ever had the chance to join the SWAT team, I would do that in a heartbeat.

Narfwak · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flatline[UTD] @ Jan 5 2003, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Read it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

I swear, my dream job would be a counter-sniper. Of course, if I ever had the chance to join the SWAT team, I would do that in a heartbeat.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Um, yeah. That would be really, really hard. Plus, your job is to kill people. And, um, it's really <i>really</i> hard to be a good sniper. Yeah. Hard. Really. Killing bad.

And I don't think we need to know that much to do well in a friggin' <i>game</i>.

pulsedsn · January 2003

wow that manual is truly insane. i suppose if anyone wants to learn formations go down the screen on that page and look at their pictures ;p

but then i suppose in NS all you need is what legionnared said. Unless motion tracking tells that all the enemies are coming from a certain direction, i dont think formations are really necessary... but i think a commander feature telling the marines to do a simple formation would be interesting. The marines could have a log at the top left of their screen, displaying all their orders from the commander.

Yes, i guess if anything at all is heard in this room, i suppose the soldier log, where orders and actions (such as "commander upgrading motion tracking", or "building turret") are logged in would be the most useful.

Or maybe something better would be the commander to be able to set a command group (if at all possible), then to be able to set one soldier as the point man, and give marines different orders whilst in a group, like rear guard or point man. I suppose formations arent too useful, but designating things like squad leader and rear guard would be interesting and possibly very useful additions. Or you could just communicate this to your group ;p

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Narfwak @ Jan 5 2003, 09:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Um, yeah. That would be really, really hard. Plus, your job is to kill people. And, um, it's really <i>really</i> hard to be a good sniper. Yeah. Hard. Really. Killing bad.

And I don't think we need to know that much to do well in a friggin' <i>game</i>.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Have you ever seen how counter-snipers work? Killing is the absolute last resort, just like it is in regular police work. That's the difference between snipers and counter-snipers. Snipers assassinate, which I think is kind of cowardly. Counter-snipers attempt to take the assassin into custody, and save the target of the assassination.

The truly skilled counter-snipers, the ones that our government use, can disable the rifle - not the sniper - with a perfectly placed shot. But, I never said it wouldn't be hard.

And that MOUT stuff really doesn't have any bearing on the game. Like you said, it is a game. But I really like reading up on tactical stuff like that. I'm a strategist, I like that kind of thing. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Gargamel · January 2003

Well, real life urban warfare suxx like any war-waging <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>
But I agree they are interesting <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>
And a clan using those procedures would rock <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Oh, and please note, firing a gun in a game is much more fun than in real life soldier training,trust me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Deckard1 · January 2003

I've found out as a marine early in the game that it's actually best if half of the marines stay near the entrances of a place they are guarding with LMGS and the other half stay crouched in the back with pistols (obviously though this is only for ppl that can aim). That way when the skulks slow down to try and bite the marines in the front the guys in the back snipe em. As for formations when moving, I just generall try to stay fairly close yet far enough apart from my team that I get a good field of vision and a lone skulk can't just rush up biting like a psycho and kill all 4 or 5 of us at once, which is soooo easy to do when marines are bunched together.

pulsedsn · January 2003

now that i think back formations are only useful in guarding. Even while fighting i dont think it is wise to crouch and let the marines behind you shoot (unless facing fades) because then it is basically use that marine as a meatshield and kill while they kill him. Better to let the marine try to evade attack.

Shadowz · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pulse^dsn @ Jan 10 2003, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>now that i think back formations are only useful in guarding. Even while fighting i dont think it is wise to crouch and let the marines behind you shoot (unless facing fades) because then it is basically use that marine as a meatshield and kill while they kill him. Better to let the marine try to evade attack.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
that's if they know how to evade ...............
you dont want to see them jumping like monkey ..

Forfeit · January 2003

"Offence is the best defence."

Well, usualy when a skulk try to bite me, I run towards him if he is too close. Why? Because usually skulks just come running and jump, trying to bite you. If you run forward to him and try to jump over him, then he will have a hard time hitting you. When you land, turn over and shoot him in the back.

This usually works because when skulks are biting, their mouth opening and closing blocks their vision. If the marine jumps over the skulk, he will have a hard time to find the marine.

When you are the point man, just do it. You will jump over the skulk, and the marines following you will have a clear shot. The skulk will lost your track and will die to your team mates.

Of course you have to train a lot before trying to do this.

TAUhang10 · January 2003

send one marine out and use him as "lure" to bring back around the corner where 4 marines are crouched in the dark places <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Advisor · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (b00ted @ Jan 3 2003, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> here ill draw diagrams <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

|---------|_________
|----------A-----A
|----------__A______
|---------|
|--X-----|
|---------|
|---------|
|X------X|

Hallway Flank 3v3 (Two Men In Back Cover 1 In Front)
A=Aliens
X=Marines

_____________
|------------------|
D------------------|
|------------------|
--|---======-----|
--|---======-----X1|
|X-------O-------------|
|------------------------|
|_____X_________|

Defending Objective 3v?
X=Marines
D=Doorway
O=Object.
X1=Spotter(Watching Doorway)

|------\
|-------\
|-A------\
|-------A-\________
|------------------M----M
|-----------______M__
|--------A--\

Funnel Rushed 3v3
X=Marines
A=Aliens

|---A----|
|---------|
|---X----|
|--X--X--|
|---------|
|--A----A-|

Pincer Attacked(You Lose)
X=Marines Dead Corpses In A Second <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>
A=Aliens

Enjoy.. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That really depends on the marines weapons.

Formations?

Comments