Costs of webs (and hydras)
BarleyB
NA Join Date: 2015-06-18 Member: 205584Members
NA Join Date: 2015-06-18 Member: 205584Members
I'm proposing that webs should be free.
Right now NO ONE, EVER, uses them because they cost 1 res, 1 res that could very well be turned into a higher lifeform. For that 1 res, they are way too easily destroyed and in terms of effectiveness, they are not worth even 0.1 res.
They DO serve a purpose, to stop jetpacks and increase lategame gorge survivability. They are one of the few ways to get a shotgun JP out of the air, especially on 1 hive. They can also slow down pushes or distract.
It they were free , people would actually use them, which might be a nasty surprise for those oh-so-effective JP rushes. I don't see why they have to cost res at all, it's not like they make gorges OP or something.
Since we're on this topic anyway, I want to also propose that Hydra's should have their cost reduced to 2 per hydra. Building a set of hydra's right now locks you out of a lot of evolve-options. A gorge that drops 3 hydras will most likely have to stay gorge the whole game. Furthermore, they are only dangerous in a group and 2 grenades for 3 res, kill 3 hydras for 9 res instantly. It's not proportional and they are not effective enough for their cost.
What do you think about these 2 proposals, do you foresee downsides or upsides?
Right now NO ONE, EVER, uses them because they cost 1 res, 1 res that could very well be turned into a higher lifeform. For that 1 res, they are way too easily destroyed and in terms of effectiveness, they are not worth even 0.1 res.
They DO serve a purpose, to stop jetpacks and increase lategame gorge survivability. They are one of the few ways to get a shotgun JP out of the air, especially on 1 hive. They can also slow down pushes or distract.
It they were free , people would actually use them, which might be a nasty surprise for those oh-so-effective JP rushes. I don't see why they have to cost res at all, it's not like they make gorges OP or something.
Since we're on this topic anyway, I want to also propose that Hydra's should have their cost reduced to 2 per hydra. Building a set of hydra's right now locks you out of a lot of evolve-options. A gorge that drops 3 hydras will most likely have to stay gorge the whole game. Furthermore, they are only dangerous in a group and 2 grenades for 3 res, kill 3 hydras for 9 res instantly. It's not proportional and they are not effective enough for their cost.
What do you think about these 2 proposals, do you foresee downsides or upsides?
Comments
Webs are 1, tunnel entrance/exit is 4, hydras are 3 or 4 (don't remember exactly). Forget what babblers are, but they DO cost money. Only thing free is clogs.
I wouldn't reduce Hydras' cost however. When a game starts, it prevents Gorges to place both Hydras and Gorge Tunnel instantly. Meaning you either go for Hydras first or a Gorge Tunnel. Also, 3 pres as Aliens and 3 pres as Marines are way far different from each other. It's easier to harvest resources as Alien than it is as Marine. While a game is going on, you have more probability to find out more Resources Towers in the Aliens side. I've never seen the Gorge as a non-balanced lifeform though and can't really figure out what would it change. I like it as it is now.
IIRC they didn't cost resources in NS1, why change now? There isn't any fundamental difference between NS1 webs and NS2 webs?
No but there's a difference between NS1 and NS2 in a whole...
Rather than reducing the cost, there should be some sort of upgrade path available to hydras via alien comm to make them an actual deterrent later on.
I'm thinking maybe a 15-ish tres investment to make hydras pierce armor, and another 20 tres investment to make hydra projectiles drain a set amount (5-10%) of a jetpacker's fuel per hit.
Yes pela but the gameplay mechanic is essentially exactly the same there isn't any distinguishable difference between the webs from both games.
NS1 and NS2 webs both need to be connected from 1 point to another
NS1 and NS2 webs can both be welded to destroy them
NS1 and NS2 webs stop jetpacks and slowdown marines who walk into them
NS1 and NS2 webs get destroyed when they come into contact with explosions
The difference is one costs res and the other one doesn't.
Its all apples and oranges.
And I think it remains the best solution.
Rest of gorges items are fine x
Yeh well hmm, i would like changes that make rushing 3 hives a viable yet risky tactic.
So 'more power' but not bound to biomass (= overall more power/hp etc) but just 'specific power' unlock with 3 hives.
Maybe make free-webs (max 4) and free-hydras (max 3) autounlock with the 3rd hive.
Game development: rush 3 hives (risky: weak skulks, fades, lerks etc) but POWERGORGE for defence, then slowly develop higher* lifeforms.
*not meant as an insult to the gorge, the highest yet lowest lifeform of them all.
If my memory serve me well. Web needs biomass 5. Mainly because it would have been abused otherwise. But in the mean time 1 res when you have 2 hives means, you have at least 3~4 harvester minimum. Not that bad.
What i thought was 2 kind of web.
1 Regular
->
2 The trap
The idea is to set up a trap that regenerates regularly in order to catch/stall loose marines. It allows to block some doorway a little more stronger. Id say biomass 7 at least. The ninja properly equipped can go through the same as before. It's just a tool to help Alien ending the game.
But it won't happen right?
With all the grenades and flamers being lobbed around in the late game there just isn't any point to having webs up.
EDIT: fixed auto correct from phone
You could make them blast proof (GL and grenades don't hurt them), making welders, flamethrowers or purposely walking into them required to destroy them.
You could make webs easier to place. In NS1 they had a length limitation, but you could place them from the other side of the room, so that you didn't have to physically be able to get your gorge to where you wanted to place the webs. This is very important for two reason: webs are primarily anti-JP and gorge is slow and vulnerable and benefits from being able to do things at range without putting yourself in dangerous positions.
You could allow access to webs earlier in the tech tree.
You could make webs straight out more powerful without changing anything else. Right now they're underpowered and not worth using. It is easy to make them grotesquely overpowered; somewhere between those points they'll be just right. e.g. can't fire while webbed, longer duration, greater slow down, shorter arming time, take more damage before being destroyed; many knobs to twiddle.
You could forget about using them against JPs and just repurpose them for something else. E.g. you could tie a babbler egg to the starting side of the web and hatch some babblers if someone trips the web as if an alien mine.
"Crazy idea, but instead of grenades exploding on contact with webs, the webs catch them midair like barnacles from Half-Life and kill or greatly diminish their detonation damage radius. Give webs a little explosion resistance too and they'll be viable again and even fit their late-game biomass upgrade."
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2244462/#Comment_2244462
I think webs would be fine as something that is autoresearched.
I get there is a use case for it, but honestly it seems needlessly complicated for pub players.
If you've got two tunnels already placed, popup with another menu chooser ('1' or '2', and a location of the tunnel by both choices), so you choose which location's tunnel should be moved.
Personally I'd like to see some investigation into why sometimes tunnels don't connect, even when both ends are placed. This has ruined a handful of games, and it's not exactly rare. If it IS indeed a mod causing it... I'd like to know which one.
This is an issue BECAUSE it's not in vanilla, not because of the idea itself. All good things like this would get messed up in games for a while, but people get used to it.
It's certainly not an unnecessary complication. It's unnecessary how hard it is to handle your tunnels WITHOUT this. But I think tunnels are dumb anyways
On that note: what is the reason behind this change in comp mod? I've always wondered as I never saw the need, myself.
It happens in vanilla so it's decidedly not a mod causing it.
Perhaps have a large red X over the entrance icon and some "Already placed!" text to accompany it if the entrance/exit is already down. I figure a rookie, or any player that doesn't already have these tunnel hotkeys down is the same group that doesn't yet know/understand the entrance/exit distinction. If a player needs to move entrance/exit, they can still use the options, but the big red X and text will be there to dissuade them. They'll tell their team they "can't", then the team will clarify it to them, assuming the player didn't figure out that the X was just a suggestion by then.
It's tram, say you spawned in Warehouse and put down the entrance as you spawn. You put your first exit tunnel in server room because it's a safe bet. You get a hive in server room, and now you want to move your tunnel to ET to secure that. In vanilla NS2, putting down a 3rd tunnel will get rid of your warehouse entrance making it server to ET, however those rooms are already close enough. You'd rather have warehouse going to ET because it's further away and would take skulks longer to help.
It's not a huge deal and is rarely used, it's just a nice quality of life feature that would only inconvenience a person one time, the first time they make the mistake.
edit: can't believe I did not think about this as it's the most common use and done regularly in the server: you have a tunnel built between hive locations, or anywhere really. you want to do a base rush, in vanilla you end up replacing your entrance preventing easy access from the main hive.