@WasabiOne
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
but the alternative is just as workable, although it may be too radical a change at this point.
No, the alternative is not just as workable - you just said yourself you'd have to design maps around that. :P
Implying that we'd have to completely redesign all of the available maps to accommodate this unproven change that is more than likely riddled with impacts across all mechanics in the game which would require MONTHS of testing and balancing again... well.. at that point, a new game is what you are you asking for. One that everyone would have to re-learn all over again, and believe me the repercussions from change alone, is huge to swaths of paying customers, as we found out the hard way during this game's development.
Therefore, I do do not agree, it's not "just as workable", and your second point of being "too radical a change" is much more accurate.
I think staying within the practical confines when theorycrafting is much more conducive to actually getting to one day experience the suggested solutions.
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends. Power nodes do the same thing, but not as severely.
My suggestion is to just untie them from that, and make them simply give the commander abilities to use in infested area/powered rooms. Now no development work is wasted and the game can actually progress and be "balanced." Then abilities can be added and stuff yadadyaydyada, gotta go get on site
Even though - and this is just my very personal opinion - I find your balancing idea fruitless and counter-productive (since you aim to make the commander less dependent on the field players), that minor change would have an avalanche impact on game economy and balance.
You'd have to revisit every single existing number and mechanic (How about echo? Go shift, get 1-2 gorges, instantly have 6 RTs up everywhere? What about whips? Sneaky drifters? Having your shaded forward base walk right to the marine natural without them noticing because the shade won't need infestation?) and tune them again, starting from scratch.
(My response because this is too annoying to quote right via mobile) Yes you would (edit: although I think less so than your implication, but that's just speculation), and you would then have a much better game. I think this is more important than performance ever was.
Alot of what you're saying would be negative from changing the infestation rules can still be tied to infestation, and that's very much my point. For one example using echo could still require infestation at the destination. For two maybe support structures can only move on infestation but simply not die when off of it. Yes there would be alot of discussion about what needs what, but atleast the strategy would be open.
I do rather simply disagree with what whomever said about untying the commander from the team. I feel it's loosening the bond. I would never play alien comm in a pub, pug, or match, simply because I find it so boring. The only things I see in alien comm that are inspiring are insanely well timed usages of bonewall and cyst bursts. I want to expand those possibilities without creating a pve which is opposite the pve we have now. Currently the cysting forces the game to be Marines vs environment as someone mentioned earlier.
I think that power nodes need the same treatment, but I don't stress it as much because it's not holding the game back AS much. I'd like to see power nodes allowong the comm to research room specific abilities like electrification, nanoshield, etc which are lost permantly when the power is killed. Again untying from power but still relevant and an option.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Zoning and laning is an integrate part of any competitive fps and strategy game, I think you are downplaying the significance of it. We can debate that if needed of course, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
You're wrong
Why do you even bother dude? (Not the first time he's doing this)
Would you please stay on topic? Try proving you're not wrong in a pm.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
edited April 2015
I believe decoupling cysts were talked about after the game was released (I remember commenting on it, but can't find the thread as it was so long ago). The gist of what I said then was decoupling cysts is too OP and would change the alien early game to rush to a location near marines, go gorge, get a tunnel. build crag and shade on that infestation (assuming you still need to build on infestation OR if you don't need infestation to start a structure, it will be even more OP - get a sneaky crag near marine start and rush), or walk the shade in marine start (they can't detected it for a few minutes), rush marine base ftw. That would get boring fast. I think as others have said, decoupling cysts has a lot of unintended consequences.
As this discussion goes on, it is clear we may need to agree to disagree on decoupling. I played NS1 to death, and see where you are coming from, but that had fundamental different mechanics (no alien comm). Before you say, well get rid of the alien comm and let the gorge build... That is another large change that will have more unintended consequences. Remember the whole game is designed and balanced (for 2 years) based on the current 2 commander mechanic, so if you make major changes in mechanic, it will change the design and balance very drastically.
@WasabiOne
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
I would love custom maps to be played more, but I don't think a stamp of approval would do it. The fact that a significant portion of the official maps are hardly played makes me think that custom maps being custom is not the problem.
@WasabiOne
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
I would love custom maps to be played more, but I don't think a stamp of approval would do it.
@WasabiOne
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
I would love custom maps to be played more, but I don't think a stamp of approval would do it.
Actual good custom maps would do it.
They exist. Jambi is good, and popular as far as custom maps go but it empties servers all the same. Mineral is becoming a pretty great map in my opinion. I haven't played Nexus, yet formally Nyx, but I hear it is popular wtih comp players. Good custom maps exist, but they empty the server all the same.
why everyone keep talking about new map , new skin , new DLC ? ( hit me if im wrong cuz Call of Money hype all those years )
Mean while i cant find a match with at least 150-200ms server , and if even we sit on that server for 2 hours with some friends its still empty =='
Dev should focus on menu interface for new player + Easy find match so we dont have to play in 24/42 slot server with 400+ ping >>> Mean while with low ping server 50-100 ms you can see its 0/20 or something like that
I believe decoupling cysts were talked about after the game was released (I remember commenting on it, but can't find the thread as it was so long ago). The gist of what I said then was decoupling cysts is too OP and would change the alien early game to rush to a location near marines, go gorge, get a tunnel. build crag and shade on that infestation (assuming you still need to build on infestation OR if you don't need infestation to start a structure, it will be even more OP - get a sneaky crag near marine start and rush), or walk the shade in marine start (they can't detected it for a few minutes), rush marine base ftw. That would get boring fast. I think as others have said, decoupling cysts has a lot of unintended consequences.
As this discussion goes on, it is clear we may need to agree to disagree on decoupling. I played NS1 to death, and see where you are coming from, but that had fundamental different mechanics (no alien comm). Before you say, well get rid of the alien comm and let the gorge build... That is another large change that will have more unintended consequences. Remember the whole game is designed and balanced (for 2 years) based on the current 2 commander mechanic, so if you make major changes in mechanic, it will change the design and balance very drastically.
Cheers
I don't think that a tunnel next to marine spawn is op if it's weaker without infestation but gets stronger on infestation. I also don't find any of those rush scenarios worrisome, they're weak. But at least we would be able to try. Trying fun things is fun
What if you needed a gorge to build off of infestation? A gorge matters more all of a sudden, in a really exciting way
but the alternative is just as workable, although it may be too radical a change at this point.
No, the alternative is not just as workable - you just said yourself you'd have to design maps around that. :P
Implying that we'd have to completely redesign all of the available maps to accommodate this unproven change that is more than likely riddled with impacts across all mechanics in the game which would require MONTHS of testing and balancing again... well.. at that point, a new game is what you are you asking for. One that everyone would have to re-learn all over again, and believe me the repercussions from change alone, is huge to swaths of paying customers, as we found out the hard way during this game's development.
Therefore, I do do not agree, it's not "just as workable", and your second point of being "too radical a change" is much more accurate.
I think staying within the practical confines when theorycrafting is much more conducive to actually getting to one day experience the suggested solutions.
Sure. I was looking more hypothetical than prospective, but I guess I didn't convey that properly.
Custom maps are fine, just takes time to learn them and for a commander to come up with new tactics. Also custom maps don't have the hundreds of hours of play testing, just look how long the classics had to develop. Tram is nothing like its first incarnation.
Again I do like custom maps, just gotta give them a chance peeps x
@WasabiOne
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Zoning and laning is an integrate part of any competitive fps and strategy game, I think you are downplaying the significance of it. We can debate that if needed of course, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
You're wrong
Why do you even bother dude? (Not the first time he's doing this)
Would you please stay on topic? Try proving you're not wrong in a pm.
Lol. The irony in this guy.
First of all, watch this video:
Because I have no intention of proving anything, that burden is on you the claimant.
Let me sum up what has happened here.
You have made a conclusion; that X change will have Y benefit.
Your overall premise is; X will result in less restrictive gameplay - or more possibilities.
And somehow you get from that premise to your conclusion. There's a gap there.
I say; I'm happy to concede your premise - But I need more justification that this premise actually leads to that conclusion. And I explain why I don't think it leads to that conclusion as well.
You say; "you're wrong", without providing any further reasoning... again.
And now you're accusing me of derailing the topic. -The topic that you brought up that I actually think has very little to do with the OP. Hence, more irony.
A lot of other people in this thread have taken the different route, and explained why the change would not be practical and perhaps even impossible. I'm not even going that far, although I do think that as well. But all I'm asking for, for now, is justification that even if we had a magic wand and could make the change in a heartbeat, that it indeed would be better. I think I'm the one here who's granting you the most here and yet I'm the one who gets the least respectful and least thoughtful replies.
My case, in short:
Less restrictive gameplay is not necessarily better in my opinion. And do not misread me there - I'm not saying; "less restrictive gameplay is not better". I already provided an example where less restrictive gameplay is not better, so I believe I satisfied my burden of proof there.
So what I'm requesting, again, is that you justify your premise, that less restriction, in NS2, would indeed make a better game.
I'm not even asking you to prove what you seem to imply, correct me if I'm wrong, that 'less restriction is good' is somehow an axiom. All I need is, justification that your premise applies to NS2.
The closest you got to that, was not a response to me.
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends.
But I think the other posts here addressed that satisfactory, so I won't bother. I just wanted to be fair to you and acknowledge that you are capable of defending your position reasonably.
@WasabiOne
promote more custom maps, more backgrounds shown.. winwin? :P
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
yep that totally worked for eclipse didn't it
They still 'forced' everyone play the map when it launched, i remember playing probably 70% of the rounds on that map untill people realised it was bad. If we would have that in a repeating succession on maps that are actually worked on(e.g. mineral/nexus). Now we have everyone who know Eclipse maps layout by hearth, but they cba learning anything else and continue voting for the maps they already know.
If you want real world example, look at what valve does with csgo operations. Keeps the game "fresh" but at the same time doesnt make you play the same maps forever.
Sigh. My point was that it was restrictive because you have to hold the room or you were stuck / need minimum 12 pres for a gorge tunnel that has limited range. I'm not arguing whether it is a good/bad mechanic, but that it is "restrictive". There is no "take the uncontested parts of the map" option.
With all due respect, nothing limits you from taking 'uncontested area'. You have to cyst first/get a power node, but that's all.
Areas where no enemies can be found, but you can't cyst there/send your marines there because there's an enemy force blocking the way somewhere else are not 'uncontested', they're being denied - and that's part of the whole concept behind zoning and laning.
I think you got it backwards. Zoning and laning are only as effective as they are because aliens are restricted. Again, its not about whether it is good/bad, but how it would be different and proving that it is a restriction.
Zoning and laning is an integrate part of any competitive fps and strategy game, I think you are downplaying the significance of it. We can debate that if needed of course, but that is besides the point I'd like to make.
I'm happy to concede that infestation and power nodes are restricting. There is no need to prove that as far as I'm concerned. The only thing I'm objecting to, is the leap that this admission should lead to the total removal of these mechanics.
You're wrong
Why do you even bother dude? (Not the first time he's doing this)
Would you please stay on topic? Try proving you're not wrong in a pm.
Lol. The irony in this guy.
First of all, watch this video:
Because I have no intention of proving anything, that burden is on you the claimant.
Let me sum up what has happened here.
You have made a conclusion; that X change will have Y benefit.
Your overall premise is; X will result in less restrictive gameplay - or more possibilities.
And somehow you get from that premise to your conclusion. There's a gap there.
I say; I'm happy to concede your premise - But I need more justification that this premise actually leads to that conclusion. And I explain why I don't think it leads to that conclusion as well.
You say; "you're wrong", without providing any further reasoning... again.
And now you're accusing me of derailing the topic. -The topic that you brought up that I actually think has very little to do with the OP. Hence, more irony.
A lot of other people in this thread have taken the different route, and explained why the change would not be practical and perhaps even impossible. I'm not even going that far, although I do think that as well. But all I'm asking for, for now, is justification that even if we had a magic wand and could make the change in a heartbeat, that it indeed would be better. I think I'm the one here who's granting you the most here and yet I'm the one who gets the least respectful and least thoughtful replies.
My case, in short:
Less restrictive gameplay is not necessarily better in my opinion. And do not misread me there - I'm not saying; "less restrictive gameplay is not better". I already provided an example where less restrictive gameplay is not better, so I believe I satisfied my burden of proof there.
So what I'm requesting, again, is that you justify your premise, that less restriction, in NS2, would indeed make a better game.
I'm not even asking you to prove what you seem to imply, correct me if I'm wrong, that 'less restriction is good' is somehow an axiom. All I need is, justification that your premise applies to NS2.
The closest you got to that, was not a response to me.
EVERYTHING is tied to infestation, and the most important thing that messes with is the commanders then inability to make decisions to work with his team. If they don't protect THESE RES NODES, then nothing can happen for the whole game and it just ends.
But I think the other posts here addressed that satisfactory, so I won't bother. I just wanted to be fair to you and acknowledge that you are capable of defending your position reasonably.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
I'm right and everybody else is wrong. EVERYBODY! Deal with it. I win. I hereby declare myself the winner of this forum debate. You can all bow down before my excellent typing skills, or be annihilated by my pouty foot-stamping. The choice is yours. I await your PMs with much anticipation.
I'm right and everybody else is wrong. EVERYBODY! Deal with it. I win. I hereby declare myself the winner of this forum debate. You can all bow down before my excellent typing skills, or be annihilated by my pouty foot-stamping. The choice is yours. I await your PMs with much anticipation.
@BeigeAlert Of course! ^:)^ Claim your forum badge! ) "Everyone else is wrong" badge is comming soon! Nah, this thread is ripe for closing. I mean, when you get to the point, you know, you can't change someones mind, you stop. There is no need to prolong the discussion, much less to resort to sarcasms or outright insults. They should make instructive video on youtube about that too :P
why everyone keep talking about new map , new skin , new DLC ? ( hit me if im wrong cuz Call of Money hype all those years )
Mean while i cant find a match with at least 150-200ms server , and if even we sit on that server for 2 hours with some friends its still empty =='
Dev should focus on menu interface for new player + Easy find match so we dont have to play in 24/42 slot server with 400+ ping >>> Mean while with low ping server 50-100 ms you can see its 0/20 or something like that
Your problem is that you live in an area where there is not a lot of player activity. There's really not much at all that the devs or anyone can do about that at this point. I play on Russian servers sometimes. Sometimes you gotta cross continents if you'd like a game.
Its a shame we cant go back in time and rename the marines Terrans, Aliens Zergs, we could of had an entire country backing us financially right now haha
^ Yeah, It's a sad fact that NA + EU composes almost 4/5 of game sales worldwide, despite having like a 1/5 of population...
Thats because 4/5 of the population needs to hunt for food (Africa, South America, India, China), can't afford a pc, their internet sux (that's most of Russia and Australia, New Zealand) or they play different games (Japan's into anime games and China into P2W)
I would love custom maps to be played more, but I don't think a stamp of approval would do it. The fact that a significant portion of the official maps are hardly played makes me think that custom maps being custom is not the problem.
Yes and no. Yes because it's not only custom maps.
But, Eclipse or Veil don't empty the server while they are official ports from NS1 and basically are 4 TPs maps.
4TPs is a thing that can diminish possibilities. I mean you can't play Veil with 10vs10 teams (+1200 skill). It's just messy. I see all the time games with one team obliterating the other from the first minute (stacked or not). Marines fighting for the 2 naturals or alien never get a good grip on Nano. 6vs6 maybe but not more on Veil. These kind (4TPs) maps have critical spots that change the game like flipping a coin depending on who conquer it.
They exist. Jambi is good, and popular as far as custom maps go but it empties servers all the same. Mineral is becoming a pretty great map in my opinion. I haven't played Nexus, yet formally Nyx, but I hear it is popular wtih comp players. Good custom maps exist, but they empty the server all the same.
I wouldn't go so far about Jambi . I really had a bunch of legendary bad games on this map. When you have god like aim on the marine side... It's the school of hard knocks for aliens. LOS and lights should really be addresses in there.
Custom maps are fine, just takes time to learn them and for a commander to come up with new tactics. Also custom maps don't have the hundreds of hours of play testing, just look how long the classics had to develop. Tram is nothing like its first incarnation.
Again I do like custom maps, just gotta give them a chance peeps x
+1K
Yup it tends to be more and more a one map game syndrome which i think is stupid. In the mean time it's natural to fear a little bit the unknown but in the other hand; it's better to try as the only real risk is to get better at the game (know more map, so moving & positioning get better).
All is not lost. Making Eclipse, Veil or Kodiak a 5 TP maps (and official as some already are a reality) may work. It's not up to me. The thing is that these maps (it's my opinion) shouldn't be played with too many players. On the other hand other maps can and should be played with more than 6vs6. Each map is unique after all.
I would love custom maps to be played more, but I don't think a stamp of approval would do it. The fact that a significant portion of the official maps are hardly played makes me think that custom maps being custom is not the problem.
Yes and no. Yes because it's not only custom maps.
But, Eclipse or Veil don't empty the server while they are official ports from NS1 and basically are 4 TPs maps.
You speak as if veil wasn't a popular map. Isn't it the trio of summit, tram, and veil that are played to death? Veil and eclipse are not comparable in this way. Eclipse is very unpopular map, mostly for good reason, but it does not have to do with being a 4tp thread. I refer to the eclipse v1 thread for what problems eclipse has.
4TPs is a thing that can diminish possibilities. I mean you can't play Veil with 10vs10 teams (+1200 skill). It's just messy. I see all the time games with one team obliterating the other from the first minute (stacked or not). Marines fighting for the 2 naturals or alien never get a good grip on Nano. 6vs6 maybe but not more on Veil. These kind (4TPs) maps have critical spots that change the game like flipping a coin depending on who conquer it.
First off, I like 4tp maps. I like how it is still an even game if each team has 2tp's each. But if a team has 3tp the game is over and isn't drawn out. Veil is a very balanced map. It is very popular in comp scene because of that.
They exist. Jambi is good, and popular as far as custom maps go but it empties servers all the same. Mineral is becoming a pretty great map in my opinion. I haven't played Nexus, yet formally Nyx, but I hear it is popular wtih comp players. Good custom maps exist, but they empty the server all the same.
I wouldn't go so far about Jambi . I really had a bunch of legendary bad games on this map. When you have god like aim on the marine side... It's the school of hard knocks for aliens. LOS and lights should really be addresses in there.
I have had my fair share of bad games on jambi, but also my fair share of bad games on literally every map. I am not saying jambi doesn't have issues, but it is a pretty good map. There was a thread recently where people were asking for it to be official.
I believe decoupling cysts were talked about after the game was released (I remember commenting on it, but can't find the thread as it was so long ago). The gist of what I said then was decoupling cysts is too OP and would change the alien early game to rush to a location near marines, go gorge, get a tunnel. build crag and shade on that infestation (assuming you still need to build on infestation OR if you don't need infestation to start a structure, it will be even more OP - get a sneaky crag near marine start and rush), or walk the shade in marine start (they can't detected it for a few minutes), rush marine base ftw. That would get boring fast. I think as others have said, decoupling cysts has a lot of unintended consequences.
As this discussion goes on, it is clear we may need to agree to disagree on decoupling. I played NS1 to death, and see where you are coming from, but that had fundamental different mechanics (no alien comm). Before you say, well get rid of the alien comm and let the gorge build... That is another large change that will have more unintended consequences. Remember the whole game is designed and balanced (for 2 years) based on the current 2 commander mechanic, so if you make major changes in mechanic, it will change the design and balance very drastically.
Cheers
I don't think that a tunnel next to marine spawn is op if it's weaker without infestation but gets stronger on infestation. I also don't find any of those rush scenarios worrisome, they're weak. But at least we would be able to try. Trying fun things is fun
What if you needed a gorge to build off of infestation? A gorge matters more all of a sudden, in a really exciting way
or perhaps a commander built 20 tres nydus tunnel structure
catpacks should become an actual backpack that perma increases your movement and attack speed. instead of only temporary. an alternative to the jetpack
Comments
If only we had a stamp of approval from UWE on custom maps it would be less a "sudden server death" every time a custom map is selected / voted. Even if it's stupid it happens more than i can count. Making custom map less considered as bad quality would help (while they aren't bad at all actually).
Implying that we'd have to completely redesign all of the available maps to accommodate this unproven change that is more than likely riddled with impacts across all mechanics in the game which would require MONTHS of testing and balancing again... well.. at that point, a new game is what you are you asking for. One that everyone would have to re-learn all over again, and believe me the repercussions from change alone, is huge to swaths of paying customers, as we found out the hard way during this game's development.
Therefore, I do do not agree, it's not "just as workable", and your second point of being "too radical a change" is much more accurate.
I think staying within the practical confines when theorycrafting is much more conducive to actually getting to one day experience the suggested solutions.
As this discussion goes on, it is clear we may need to agree to disagree on decoupling. I played NS1 to death, and see where you are coming from, but that had fundamental different mechanics (no alien comm). Before you say, well get rid of the alien comm and let the gorge build... That is another large change that will have more unintended consequences. Remember the whole game is designed and balanced (for 2 years) based on the current 2 commander mechanic, so if you make major changes in mechanic, it will change the design and balance very drastically.
Cheers
Actual good custom maps would do it.
Mean while i cant find a match with at least 150-200ms server , and if even we sit on that server for 2 hours with some friends its still empty =='
Dev should focus on menu interface for new player + Easy find match so we dont have to play in 24/42 slot server with 400+ ping >>> Mean while with low ping server 50-100 ms you can see its 0/20 or something like that
I don't think that a tunnel next to marine spawn is op if it's weaker without infestation but gets stronger on infestation. I also don't find any of those rush scenarios worrisome, they're weak. But at least we would be able to try. Trying fun things is fun
What if you needed a gorge to build off of infestation? A gorge matters more all of a sudden, in a really exciting way
Sure. I was looking more hypothetical than prospective, but I guess I didn't convey that properly.
Again I do like custom maps, just gotta give them a chance peeps x
yep that totally worked for eclipse didn't it
Lol. The irony in this guy.
First of all, watch this video:
Because I have no intention of proving anything, that burden is on you the claimant.
Let me sum up what has happened here.
Your overall premise is; X will result in less restrictive gameplay - or more possibilities.
And somehow you get from that premise to your conclusion. There's a gap there.
I say; I'm happy to concede your premise - But I need more justification that this premise actually leads to that conclusion. And I explain why I don't think it leads to that conclusion as well.
You say; "you're wrong", without providing any further reasoning... again.
And now you're accusing me of derailing the topic. -The topic that you brought up that I actually think has very little to do with the OP. Hence, more irony.
A lot of other people in this thread have taken the different route, and explained why the change would not be practical and perhaps even impossible. I'm not even going that far, although I do think that as well. But all I'm asking for, for now, is justification that even if we had a magic wand and could make the change in a heartbeat, that it indeed would be better. I think I'm the one here who's granting you the most here and yet I'm the one who gets the least respectful and least thoughtful replies.
My case, in short:
Less restrictive gameplay is not necessarily better in my opinion. And do not misread me there - I'm not saying; "less restrictive gameplay is not better". I already provided an example where less restrictive gameplay is not better, so I believe I satisfied my burden of proof there.
So what I'm requesting, again, is that you justify your premise, that less restriction, in NS2, would indeed make a better game.
I'm not even asking you to prove what you seem to imply, correct me if I'm wrong, that 'less restriction is good' is somehow an axiom. All I need is, justification that your premise applies to NS2.
The closest you got to that, was not a response to me.
But I think the other posts here addressed that satisfactory, so I won't bother. I just wanted to be fair to you and acknowledge that you are capable of defending your position reasonably.
If you want real world example, look at what valve does with csgo operations. Keeps the game "fresh" but at the same time doesnt make you play the same maps forever.
And you're wrong again
Incorrect.
This guy gets it!
Long live the- oh right...
Seems a bit odd to have to close an announcement thread because the discussion has degenerated so far.
Your problem is that you live in an area where there is not a lot of player activity. There's really not much at all that the devs or anyone can do about that at this point. I play on Russian servers sometimes. Sometimes you gotta cross continents if you'd like a game.
But, Eclipse or Veil don't empty the server while they are official ports from NS1 and basically are 4 TPs maps.
4TPs is a thing that can diminish possibilities. I mean you can't play Veil with 10vs10 teams (+1200 skill). It's just messy. I see all the time games with one team obliterating the other from the first minute (stacked or not). Marines fighting for the 2 naturals or alien never get a good grip on Nano. 6vs6 maybe but not more on Veil. These kind (4TPs) maps have critical spots that change the game like flipping a coin depending on who conquer it.
I wouldn't go so far about Jambi
+1K
Yup it tends to be more and more a one map game syndrome which i think is stupid. In the mean time it's natural to fear a little bit the unknown but in the other hand; it's better to try as the only real risk is to get better at the game (know more map, so moving & positioning get better).
All is not lost. Making Eclipse, Veil or Kodiak a 5 TP maps (and official as some already are a reality) may work. It's not up to me. The thing is that these maps (it's my opinion) shouldn't be played with too many players. On the other hand other maps can and should be played with more than 6vs6. Each map is unique after all.
First off, I like 4tp maps. I like how it is still an even game if each team has 2tp's each. But if a team has 3tp the game is over and isn't drawn out. Veil is a very balanced map. It is very popular in comp scene because of that.
I have had my fair share of bad games on jambi, but also my fair share of bad games on literally every map. I am not saying jambi doesn't have issues, but it is a pretty good map. There was a thread recently where people were asking for it to be official.
or perhaps a commander built 20 tres nydus tunnel structure