Marines Facing A Disadvantage?

I_see_dead_people · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">New patch</div> Lets look at all the new 'fix'' the potential new patch brings and how they will just be putting marine into an even more severe disadvantage. Because lets face it, marines are lucky to win 1 in 10 games on a public server and thats usually only due to great team work and a good commander.

Reduced shotgun cost from 20 to 16 - Will this make shotguns impotent? By taking out the one shot kills against skulks and lerks.

Reduced welder damage from 10 to 7 - This isnt a major disadvantage but who has been playin a game and gone to pull out second weapon against a skulk and realise that its welder, then going to use it seeing that its very ineffective, this will reduce its combat capability even more.

Armory can now give out ammo while upgrading to advanced armory - now this is a highlight of the new patch for marines.

Increased cost of infantry portal from 15 to 22 - This is evil, the marines have a hard time starting up anyway and with 2 inf portals you lose 14 res which is just unacceptable to the marine start.

Increased cost of phase gate from 20 to 25 - And I find it hard saving for 20 res to begin setting up phase gates.

Decreased health of phase gate from 3500 to 2000 - I understand that they should lose some health because ive tried eating one as alien but from a commanders point of view they need every point. 3250? 3000? 2750?

Increased scan cost from 1 to 3 - I always love the cheap scans but rarely have to use them but this is just another downside.

Increased grenade launcher damage back to 200 - A badly needed bonus, nades where becoming ineffective and useless for there price.

Arms lab reduced from 50 to 45 points - Thats nice and all but its still extremely expensive and usually kept till late game when either the marines are getting thrashed or all out winning.

Reduced siege cannon range from 1250 to 1100 - This is bad, will this mean that the hera processing hold will become useless and other such things as the Communications Core hold (coming from south loop because of map bugs) will be useless?

Siege cannon targets now must be sighted to be hit (in view of friendly player or scanned by commander) - This is acceptable but with the new 3 per scan could become rather expensive resulting in another marine disadvantage.

Grenades and mines are now enhanced by arms lab damage upgrades - another nice addition so they cause more damage.

I hope this helps the NS team because i am a very frequent player of natural selection and felt this input was needed.

Morose · January 2003

The pub server I play on is split almost dead even for wins aliens vs. marines in my experience. HOWEVER, if the marines rush, they will almost certainly win. The changes in 1.04 go toward balancing this by increasing the startup costs of the marines, thus slowing them down a bit in the early game. My typical start is IP, IP, Armory, Observatory. That's now 22 + 22 + 25 + 25 = 94 res. It takes a little while to build everything though, so some more res come in giving me something like 20 res left over while my marines move to take their first position. Previous to 1.04 I would have closer to 35 res left over.

This allowed me to get Motion Tracking almost immediately OR immediately upgrade the armory so I can get ready for an HMG rush. Sure, we'd have to wait a bit longer to get our resources established, but Motion Tracking that early in the game is just HUGE and don't get me started on how cheesy I think the HMG rush strategy is. So while it doesn't effect the Marines that much if they are using a standard resource collection strategy, it does help slow down a couple of the more abusive ones. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

You also forgot a major change in the favor of marines... aliens can no longer go to the ready room to redistribute their resources. This is a VERY big change as you'll have a much better idea of exactly when a second hive is going to come online and you need to start worrying about the fades/lerks.

Corrado · January 2003

I think the main reason for increasing the cost of IPs is to try and get the marine comm to only build a single IP, therefore making the spawn ratio from aliens to marines 1:1...thus getting rid of the aliens only being allowed to spawn one at a time in... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

Kid-A · January 2003

Yeah I also think that marines are going to have a hard time now.

The point about the IP fair enough but could they increase its health aswell. You never get 1 marine destroying a hive in the 1st 5 mins. Skulks do it all the time which is why you need 2. (I know the analogy isn't perfect but does make a point)

But apparently fades are being made weaker.

All in all we just have to trust the NS team to make the right calls for balance.

But:
Reduce shotgun damage, why they are quite expensive and rarely used.
I understand the increase in phase gate cost, but they are essential so id pay 35+ as a comm.

tbh the changes will balance out provided the aliens get res slower.

dumbo · January 2003

You said:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reduce shotgun damage, why they are quite expensive and rarely used.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The patch notes said:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>- Reduced shotgun cost from 20 to 16</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

e.g. the shotgun is cheaper, nothing about a 'nerf'.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Lets look at all the new 'fix'' the potential new patch brings and how they will just be putting marine into an even more severe disadvantage. Because lets face it, marines are lucky to win 1 in 10 games on a public server and thats usually only due to great team work and a good commander.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I see aliens win about 50% of the time. If the marines are working well as a team, they can have a decent to good commander and easily pull off a win. Having a great commander and good teamwork just results in a faster win. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reduced shotgun cost from 20 to 16 - Will this make shotguns impotent? By taking out the one shot kills against skulks and lerks.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No nerf in anything other than the cost. Hopefully this will get MORE people using shotguns earlier on. With the changes to phase gates and IPs, rushes won't be used as often, so this is a great balance change. The marines will actually be playing an early-to-mid game, which is when the shotgun is at its strongest.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reduced welder damage from 10 to 7 - This isnt a major disadvantage but who has been playin a game and gone to pull out second weapon against a skulk and realise that its welder, then going to use it seeing that its very ineffective, this will reduce its combat capability even more.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I've almost always got a shotgun, I've never had the need to use a welder for anything other than taking out chambers.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Armory can now give out ammo while upgrading to advanced armory - now this is a highlight of the new patch for marines.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I like this. A lot. From a commander's perspective, I was always kind of reluctant to upgrade the armory early because my men would need ammo, so I would be stuck with paying the cost for the upgrade, as well as dropping ammo in base.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Increased cost of infantry portal from 15 to 22 - This is evil, the marines have a hard time starting up anyway and with 2 inf portals you lose 14 res which is just unacceptable to the marine start.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Like Corrado said, this is to keep the 1:1 spawn ratio for as long as possible. It also drastically reduces cheese like building IPs *in* the starting Hive.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Increased cost of phase gate from 20 to 25 - And I find it hard saving for 20 res to begin setting up phase gates.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Not that big a deal, IMHO. Once the IPs and observatory go down, the phase gates are next, so I don't have to wait for resources to come in.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Decreased health of phase gate from 3500 to 2000 - I understand that they should lose some health because ive tried eating one as alien but from a commanders point of view they need every point. 3250? 3000? 2750?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I don't think it should've been nerfed *that* much. 3000, maybe 2750 would have been better. But again, this is to reduce the chances of a marine rush working.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Increased scan cost from 1 to 3 - I always love the cheap scans but rarely have to use them but this is just another downside.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
<b>I HATE THIS.</b> My marines always loved me because I would ALWAYS scan the areas that they were about to move through to tell them what was around the corner. Going from 1 to 3 is just crap. They should make them last three times longer. With the siege change, a commander's only viable option now is a jetpacker stuck up in a rafter or vent for constant spotting.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Increased grenade launcher damage back to 200 - A badly needed bonus, nades where becoming ineffective and useless for there price.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
This is so grenades are an alternative to siege.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Arms lab reduced from 50 to 45 points - Thats nice and all but its still extremely expensive and usually kept till late game when either the marines are getting thrashed or all out winning.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
5 resources is nothing. The lab is still too expensive (taking into account the upgrade costs as well) when you consider that you *need* one to deal with Fades successfully.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reduced siege cannon range from 1250 to 1100 - This is bad, will this mean that the hera processing hold will become useless and other such things as the Communications Core hold (coming from south loop because of map bugs) will be useless?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
This was just to fix map bugs. I never used em, so I don't really care. And Legionnaired actually tested this out and marked the range differences, it's really nothing at all.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Siege cannon targets now must be sighted to be hit (in view of friendly player or scanned by commander) - This is acceptable but with the new 3 per scan could become rather expensive resulting in another marine disadvantage.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I don't mind the change, but like I said above, the 3 resource scan really bites. Grenades are a great alternative now, however.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Grenades and mines are now enhanced by arms lab damage upgrades - another nice addition so they cause more damage.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
NOT having them upgrade always seemed like a bug to me...

OWA · January 2003

If anything this new patch is going to give marines and advantage in all stages of the game. Lowered shotgun cost is really going to help out the early to mid game for the marines (It is the cost of the shotgun, not the damage, which is being reduced). The extreme (and I mean extreme) boost to grenade damage (the combined base inrease plus the additional effect of weapons upgrades) is going to really allow a squad of marines to rip through a wall of lame, demolish fades, and combined with the slight umbra nerf it will definately mean less and less that "Fades omg game over"

V_MAN · January 2003

I can't wait for the patch because the motion tracking bug on linux servers is gonna be fixed apparantly
y <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> me and my clan have gotten used to not having motion tracking at all and I cannot wait to see how well we play with it, it's gonna be soooooo easy now being able to track the aliens movements.

Gorgs watch out.

Turtle · January 2003

If you play on servers with experienced players the marines will rule the early game despite some losses.

These changes will rebalance the early game, however there is still the issue of the mid-game where fades are just on the scene and the marines are fighting to cope. I'm thinking that lower acid rocket splash radius will help in that respect, as light armor can more easily dodge the shots, and an acid rocket salvo becomes more of a pinpoint attack rather than an area effect like bile bombs.

Rue · January 2003

where are u guys playing? since about 1 week after 1.03 the humans are winning 60+% of the time most times i play ,the ting it about NS is that if the aliens have 2 hives and the humans have HA + HMG's then it becomes the best game you will play for a long time, the mariens have to hold there base + hive but the mariens must go for the hives , great games.

in the new patch the commander might finaly see that the shotgun is well worth dealing out as a very very good weapon , kills skulks in one and does 160 dammage to buildings, as for the seige LOS and reducing its range i think these will make the game much better beacuse finaly the hive cant be blasted by seiges from the humand bases on some maps .

imo humans are the better team in NS right now , you need a good commander not a great one , what you need is very good team work.

T_RAT · January 2003

Reduced splash damage is a bonus for marines.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

sekdar · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (T_RAT @ Jan 7 2003, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reduced splash damage is a bonus for marines.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
so is being able to kill onii with grenades if you have a jetpack and half decent aim <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

captmorgan · January 2003

The patch doesn't change the phase rush other then going with 1 IP instead of 2, which gives the aliens a chance to stop hive #2 from being taken, and puts the onus (not to be confused with onos) on the marines to EARN that second hive instead of getting it thru faster respawn rates.

I know this because I commanded a few wins on a 1.4 server still doing the phase rush. The only real change now is its skulks vs. marines in equal numbers, instead of the faster respawn rate from 2 IP's giving marines more room for error. My losses doing the fast PG rush for 2 hives came from my marines not being able to kill the skulks.

I like the lowering of the arms lab cost, as that makes a commander choose between MT or upgrades early in the game since they are equal cost. You wouldn't think 5 resource points would matter much, but early on, it does. When you have 4 or 5 RT's going, 5 matters little, but now its a choice you need to make when you have 2 or 3 RT's, when figuring in the PG rush changes..

The seige changes are good, now you can't seige 2 hives from 1 TF on eclipse and hera,(for those who do not know, there is a "sweet spot" to put a Tf at south loop to seige both maintance and comp core presently) and it makes seige more of a strategic option, instead of a "build and forget" option as it currently is.

The changes look good from what I have witnessed so far.

FlatlineUTD · January 2003

I'm glad that they made all the changes to make phase gate rushes extremely tough to pull off. I don't want to join a server and play 10 games in 30 minutes due to rushing.

Kid-A · January 2003

Oh also apparently tf and seige now (*might*) cost 20 rather than 25.

For me this *totally* negates the increased phase cost as it will for any commanders that use phases to secure hives rather than the 'phase gate rush'.

It seems they are trying to stop phase gate rushes imho. (Which I think is good) or at least make them harder.

Dead_Dragon · January 2003

All these changes are absolutely brilliant on servers that are full of nothing but experienced players.

On the publics, the majority of these changes are going to go down like a lead balloon.

In my opinion, some of the changes they're making are just too drastic. It's like the devs have spotted a slight flaw and ended up going from one extreme to the other.

LaserApa · January 2003

I like that Defence chambers wont heal themselves anymore. That way more Gorges must probably be used to heal the def chambers thus slowing down RP gathering for that hivebuilder.

Blackout · January 2003

I think the NS developers are doing a great job. They're tuning the game on-the-fly as the community adjusts to a whole new play style and level of teamwork. I played some 1.04b, 1.04c matches and I'm confident this game is in good hands. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Archilleos · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LaserApa @ Jan 9 2003, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I like that Defence chambers wont heal themselves anymore. That way more Gorges must probably be used to heal the def chambers thus slowing down RP gathering for that hivebuilder.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Now what... I read that and understood it in that way that a def chamber wont heal ITSELF, but get healed by another nearby chamber?
Which versions gonna be correct now? Def Chambers not healing themselves, or def chambers not being able to heal each other...?

Archilleos · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LaserApa @ Jan 9 2003, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I like that Defence chambers wont heal themselves anymore. That way more Gorges must probably be used to heal the def chambers thus slowing down RP gathering for that hivebuilder.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Now what... I read that and understood it in that way that a def chamber wont heal ITSELF, but get healed by another nearby chamber?
Which versions gonna be correct now? Def Chambers not healing themselves, or def chambers not being able to heal each other...?

LaserApa · January 2003

I was hoping it meant that Defs wont heal each other. When you knife that last Deffer behind a WOL it doesnt make that regening noise does it? So i guess they dont heal themselves, but they sure heal eachother. Hopefully they wont in 1.04 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

But i might be wrong...

Geronimo · January 2003

In my oppinion,increasing IPs costs is good, but it wont change anything about them, it decrease the # of building built after though.

Shotguns are not worth it in 1.03, since good players dont want em anyway, but now they might be good as a startup rushing weapon. I dont like the fact that now I might actually see skilled people with shotguns, before I get def uppgrades <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> > <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

The phase gates are to abused right now, I like it the way they changed it
So is th sieges, cause now you can also ambush them, by building it somewhere overlooked, and when the marines comes to lamewalls, they get blow apart before the aliens can react

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> = dead <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Dead_Dragon · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Archilleos @ Jan 9 2003, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LaserApa @ Jan 9 2003, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I like that Defence chambers wont heal themselves anymore. That way more Gorges must probably be used to heal the def chambers thus slowing down RP gathering for that hivebuilder.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Now what... I read that and understood it in that way that a def chamber wont heal ITSELF, but get healed by another nearby chamber?
Which versions gonna be correct now? Def Chambers not healing themselves, or def chambers not being able to heal each other...?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Defence Chambers will still heal each other. They just wont heal themselves.

playerman · January 2003

The topic starter has imo to simplistic a view of team balance. you can't just look at cost and effectiveness of certain items and conclude which side is more powerfull, you have to take into account the fact that both teams can upgrade.

In the early game Aliens have practically no chance against Marines with decent aim who can keep their cool (just don't be afraid of skulks). In that scenario if the first skulk rush doesn't kill most of the marines,and the marines don't do anything stupid, it's a sure win for them.

In the end game however, when Aliens have three hives, marines are almost certain to lose. Main reason: the comm can't keep track of the res towers taken out by aliens while the rest of the aliens are harasing the marine base. Marines get low on resources, thus can't get enough HA/MHG etc second time around. (while one or two aliens can focus just on keeping up some res chambers, the marine comm has many many other things on his mind)

Many of the changes on the marine side affect primarily the start game so that they'll need a little more time to make setup and initial expansion, giving aliens more of a chance to get enough resources and start working on 2nd hive.

I'm not sure if and how the end-game unbalance will be addressed.

I totally disagree that marines lose 9 times out of 10. My observations are exactly the reverse.
And i find the complaint that "marines can only win if they have a good comm" totally ridiculous. You want your team to be able to win even if the team sucks? Dream on.
Of course that doesn't take away the problem that good comms are hard to come by, but that's another issue.

Shadowz · January 2003

well then from what you say , marine should have a 50:50 chance of winning ... look so but 1 thing , alien can work alone and still be strong but not marine . reason : marine need comm to build while alien dont need and their damage is too high (at the start)
in the middle of the game (2 hive ) alien with fade rushing is undefeatable , so now comm have to decide , jp ha or hmg . jp can easily mass the hive and destroy 1 to prevent more fade , ha can resist the fade more , hmg can kill the fade faster.
comm decision is important .
end of the game , winning depend on who get the max first ( from my point of view)

if marine get ha / hmg + lvl 3 armor and weapon , they win unless alien is building 3rd hive . now marine have to immediately get their hive and make them busy with lmg until most ppl get their ha/hmg.
if however alien manage to get 3rd hive up , gl and hmg(together) is a MUST to SURVIVE ... cause fade will be protecting onos .. and gl is area damage..(only)
so marine is only facing disadvantages after the 2nd hive of game ....... but with new patches. ... i am not sure

Marines Facing A Disadvantage?

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