While you have a point, just because you can spam it every time it's off cooldown, doesn't mean you should. The ability itself increases the skillcap for fading, just the same as if you would give the energy gain as static(read:adrenaline), that would make it easier to play a fade.
So the question is, why would you do that? Is it a problem to have fading as demanding as it is now?
While you have a point, just because it can spam it every time it's off cooldown, doesn't mean you should. The ability itself increases the skillcap for fading, just the same as if you would give the energy gain as static(read:adrenaline), that would make it easier to play a fade.
So the question is, why would you do that? Is it a problem to have fading as demanding as it is now?
Except I'm fairly certain the ONLY time you shouldn't spam it is when you are trying to swipe, so really the ideal way to use it would be to code an autofire macro <while shift held repeat keypress shift> so you could stop it in time to attack. This ability does not increase the skill cap of fade AT ALL, because there is no CHOICE to when to use it. All it does is increase the manual dexterity required to mindlessly spam an additional button while doing the same old thing. That is NOT a good thing.
All it does is increase the manual dexterity required to mindlessly spam an additional button while doing the same old thing. That is NOT a good thing.
While you say it's not a good thing, i say it is. If you boil down any function you do in gaming, it's down to your manual dexterity(combined with you know, sight and hearing). Seems like a matter of opinion.
On another note, references to macros to do an act in fps games, while it is beneficial for those who are unable to do it the "manual way", will always be a hindered in some situation. Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
If you want another example, a pistol macro can still be done(afaik), while you can increase your rate of fire to maximum, and do it every single time, you still need to aim to land the shots, hit and miss, you wont always hit.
All it does is increase the manual dexterity required to mindlessly spam an additional button while doing the same old thing. That is NOT a good thing.
While you say it's not a good thing, i say it is. If you boil down any function you do in gaming, it's down to your manual dexterity(combined with you know, sight and hearing). Seems like a matter of opinion.
On another note, references to macros to do an act in fps games, while it is beneficial for those who are unable to do it the "manual way", will always be a hindered in some situation. Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
If you want another example, a pistol macro can still be done(afaik), while you can increase your rate of fire to maximum, and do it every single time, you still need to aim to land the shots, hit and miss, you wont always hit.
No, the problem with Metabolize is that it is mindless. If you boil down other functions, like say, aiming, you will find that there is still an element of thought to go into them. Simply spamming a key whenever possible is something that can be done without thinking, which is why it lends itself to automation. Unlike the pistol macro for example, where there is plenty of different reasons NOT to fire as fast as possible and empty your gun, there are NO reasons not to spam metabolize any time you are not attacking. It requires no thought, and therefor merely adds complexity without adding any depth whatsoever.
Can't disagree. The very first time I had metabolize in an actual game in 268, I couldn't think of a single reason why I wouldn't hammer away at my Shift key on cooldown. You can just muscle memory it after a couple hours play, and it changes virtually nothing about the core playstyle of the Fade while making it significantly more powerful.
Hmm, i guess i'm just used to using it when i need it instead of spamming it like you guys do, then again i played a fade primaly in ns1 so it's more or less a routine for me when i need it and when i don't.
I understand the notion, but i can't really fathom why you would waste energy to press a key when you don't need to. Each to it's own i guess.
Hmm, i guess i'm just used to using it when i need it instead of spamming it like you guys do, then again i played a fade primaly in ns1 so it's more or less a routine for me when i need it and when i don't.
I understand the notion, but i can't really fathom why you would waste energy to press a key when you don't need to. Each to it's own i guess.
Since fade moves around the map by spending energy, you pretty much always benefit by using metabolize (helps you go faster while keeping full energy for combat). If you aren't moving it doesn't really hurt you to use it even though it won't do anything, the cooldown is short enough that it won't really matter even if you start fighting immediately AFTER pressing the button.
Maybe if they increased the volume of the sound effect so that marines could easily pinpoint your location if you use metab? That would at least give you a reason to think about not using it (as it is it's quieter even than crouched fade footsteps). With how blink screams though I doubt it would really make a difference without being deafening to the player playing the fade.
Metab really doesn't change much unless you learn how to use it effectively in combat. Mindlessly spamming the metab key will just end up making you less effective. Bad fades will still be bad and good fades will learn to become even better.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2014
Just thought: What if Metabolize has a bigger drawback while providing more benefits? For example, (in addition to current benefits) giving the Fade increased damage on the next attack (only within the next x seconds), but has a longer cooldown?
The current Metabolize upgrades feels rather lackluster since it's essentially a mix of Adrenaline and Regen.
Just thought: What if Metabolize has a bigger drawback while providing more benefits? For example, (in addition to current benefits) giving the Fade increased damage on the next attack, but has a longer cooldown?
The current Metabolize upgrades feels rather lackluster since it's essentially a mix of Adrenaline and Regen.
It really doesn't need a drawback. It's not mindless. Basically what joshhh said.
Metab really doesn't change much unless you learn how to use it effectively in combat. Mindlessly spamming the metab key will just end up making you less effective. Bad fades will still be bad and good fades will learn to become even better.
Care to explain? In what possible way could mindlessly mashing metab (when not going in for an attack) make you a worse fade? Or was that exactly the situation you had in mind, which i still think requires no thought whatsoever.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
There is a considerable amount of time between metab and being able to swipe again. And if you're constantly using metab in combat you're obviously not landing any swipes, if you're staying for a kill and doing this you're in the fight for a longer period of time and open yourself to taking more damage and getting pinched.
Using metab in combat is where the skill of the ability is. You need to know the timing of the animation, the energy requirements and if using it would even help you over just landing quicker swipes. Using it correctly against medpacked marines with aim isn't mindless and will get you killed if you mess up.
There is a considerable amount of time between metab and being able to swipe again. And if you're constantly using metab in combat you're obviously not landing any swipes, if you're staying for a kill and doing this you're in the fight for a longer period of time and open yourself to taking more damage and getting pinched.
Using metab in combat is where the skill of the ability is. You need to know the timing of the animation, the energy requirements and if using it would even help you over just landing quicker swipes. Using it correctly against medpacked marines with aim isn't mindless and will get you killed if you mess up.
It takes the same amount of time as 1 swipe, and there is enough time in between the cooldown for 3 swipes. Meanwhile, in that 4-swipe window, a good fade will usually only even attempt to swipe one time, with the rest of the time spent moving during which you are free to metabolize.
The real "skill" to metab is spamming the shift key in time with the cooldown while still maintaining your dodging movements. Sort of like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach while jumping on one foot. If you are so convinced that the skill is all to do with managing your attack/metab timings, then they should just make metab autofire while you hold shift.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2014
I'm not even sure if you've played fade before at this point.
If you can carefully go over how a 'good' fade only goes for 1 swipe when there is an opportunity for 4 that would be great. You are aware you're not immune to damage while metabolizing, yes? And any competent marine won't waste an entire clip shooting at a target that is intentionally baiting bullets and not contributing in any way to a fight. While you dance in the air metabing the other lifeforms have died or left. But at least you have full energy. Yay!
Metabolise is super loud.
Metabolise means you can't swipe.
Fair tradeoffs for 10% net energy gain.
Perhaps that would've been relevant, if blink and fade steps weren't loud as fuck as well.
Metabolise is far louder than jumps and swipes and would be used travelling between combat giving marines an advantage on preparation. (Although equally you could use the metabolise sound to bait marines to a different entrance so skulks could come in the other side, but "u cant expect public coordination l0l0l0l")
It's not a new ability, and it's been used by the comp scene, thus with out a doubt used by players that are not only better skillwise, play against opponents of same or higher caliber. It's pretty numbing how opinions of that type of players is just neglected but hey, we've all got an opinion right.
ps. @sebb check the disagree i got few posts back, made me chuckle
Why on earth you would spam metabolize, thereby alerting all TSF forces within 30 clicks of your precise location? That thing is so ridiculously loud that you only want to use it when you know that marines already know where you are (or you don't care if they find out...).
I have a feeling that if metabolize wasn't a one-button ability, then we wouldn't see all of these ill-conceived posts saying "huurrr duurrr jus spam shift al the tiem".
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Metabolize:
- Hold down your left mouse button while the metabolize ability is selected, and fly around the map with it (or in combat if you're good)
- Utilize the quickswitch key to switch to swipe and back when needed
Rinse and repeat. I don't think that qualifies as spamming unless you're hitting the special movement key every time to use it.
Care to explain? In what possible way could mindlessly mashing metab (when not going in for an attack) make you a worse fade? Or was that exactly the situation you had in mind, which i still think requires no thought whatsoever.
There is a considerable amount of time between metab and being able to swipe again. And if you're constantly using metab in combat you're obviously not landing any swipes, if you're staying for a kill and doing this you're in the fight for a longer period of time and open yourself to taking more damage and getting pinched.
Using metab in combat is where the skill of the ability is. You need to know the timing of the animation, the energy requirements and if using it would even help you over just landing quicker swipes. Using it correctly against medpacked marines with aim isn't mindless and will get you killed if you mess up.
It takes the same amount of time as 1 swipe, and there is enough time in between the cooldown for 3 swipes. Meanwhile, in that 4-swipe window, a good fade will usually only even attempt to swipe one time, with the rest of the time spent moving during which you are free to metabolize.
The real "skill" to metab is spamming the shift key in time with the cooldown while still maintaining your dodging movements. Sort of like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach while jumping on one foot. If you are so convinced that the skill is all to do with managing your attack/metab timings, then they should just make metab autofire while you hold shift.
Metab does something really simple... it gives you a larger energy pool (when managed correctly) which allows good fades more options to how they want to approach/engage and, more importantly, extends their time in combat. Maybe its just me but I personally felt that the pre-metab fade was extremely limited. Could you still be effective with it? Yes, but it still was limited. Spamming it outside of combat simply announces your position to the entire map... so if that's what you want to do, then go for it.
At a higher level, fades typically try and time their swipes around the marines fire patterns. Now, if your telling me, you can successfully dodge sg fire, while timing swipes in between shotgun shots, WHILE spamming metab like a mindless robot... well then feel free to take my spot on titus because you sir are a fcking wizard.
- Hold down your left mouse button while the metabolize ability is selected, and fly around the map with it (or in combat if you're good)
- Utilize the quickswitch key to switch to swipe and back when needed
Rinse and repeat. I don't think that qualifies as spamming unless you're hitting the special movement key every time to use it.
After fooling with metabolize I can see how it's something which can be quite useful and smart (I didn't notice any hp regen however, or wasn't paying attention) but for whatever reason I still prefer older iterations of the fade
Including the original
or the very fast one from several patches ago
This one just feels like a lesser version of the two, I felt the original fade was the hardest to master and we had some amazing fades back then - now I feel that most of them are handicapped, but much easier for a beginner to understand.. personally my least favorite
After fooling with metabolize I can see how it's something which can be quite useful and smart (I didn't notice any hp regen however, or wasn't paying attention) but for whatever reason I still prefer older iterations of the fade
Including the original
or the very fast one from several patches ago
This one just feels like a lesser version of the two, I felt the original fade was the hardest to master and we had some amazing fades back then - now I feel that most of them are handicapped, but much easier for a beginner to understand.. personally my least favorite
What do you mean by "original"? Surely not the beta fade?
All it does is increase the manual dexterity required to mindlessly spam an additional button while doing the same old thing. That is NOT a good thing.
While you say it's not a good thing, i say it is. If you boil down any function you do in gaming, it's down to your manual dexterity(combined with you know, sight and hearing). Seems like a matter of opinion.
On another note, references to macros to do an act in fps games, while it is beneficial for those who are unable to do it the "manual way", will always be a hindered in some situation. Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
If you want another example, a pistol macro can still be done(afaik), while you can increase your rate of fire to maximum, and do it every single time, you still need to aim to land the shots, hit and miss, you wont always hit.
No, the problem with Metabolize is that it is mindless. If you boil down other functions, like say, aiming, you will find that there is still an element of thought to go into them. Simply spamming a key whenever possible is something that can be done without thinking, which is why it lends itself to automation. Unlike the pistol macro for example, where there is plenty of different reasons NOT to fire as fast as possible and empty your gun, there are NO reasons not to spam metabolize any time you are not attacking. It requires no thought, and therefor merely adds complexity without adding any depth whatsoever.
This has been a theme with NS2 "skill" additions since 250ish. The new skulk and fade movement have elements of this as well.
Honestly wish whoever keeps designing these systems would just stop messing with it, you're doing a fucking horrible job.
Comments
So the question is, why would you do that? Is it a problem to have fading as demanding as it is now?
Except I'm fairly certain the ONLY time you shouldn't spam it is when you are trying to swipe, so really the ideal way to use it would be to code an autofire macro <while shift held repeat keypress shift> so you could stop it in time to attack. This ability does not increase the skill cap of fade AT ALL, because there is no CHOICE to when to use it. All it does is increase the manual dexterity required to mindlessly spam an additional button while doing the same old thing. That is NOT a good thing.
On another note, references to macros to do an act in fps games, while it is beneficial for those who are unable to do it the "manual way", will always be a hindered in some situation. Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
If you want another example, a pistol macro can still be done(afaik), while you can increase your rate of fire to maximum, and do it every single time, you still need to aim to land the shots, hit and miss, you wont always hit.
No, the problem with Metabolize is that it is mindless. If you boil down other functions, like say, aiming, you will find that there is still an element of thought to go into them. Simply spamming a key whenever possible is something that can be done without thinking, which is why it lends itself to automation. Unlike the pistol macro for example, where there is plenty of different reasons NOT to fire as fast as possible and empty your gun, there are NO reasons not to spam metabolize any time you are not attacking. It requires no thought, and therefor merely adds complexity without adding any depth whatsoever.
UWE has in general bought a lot of its depth with complexity, changing that now would render the game completely unrecognizable.
And it's a shame, because when you play in high level ns2, it's plenty deep without all the junk.
I understand the notion, but i can't really fathom why you would waste energy to press a key when you don't need to. Each to it's own i guess.
Since fade moves around the map by spending energy, you pretty much always benefit by using metabolize (helps you go faster while keeping full energy for combat). If you aren't moving it doesn't really hurt you to use it even though it won't do anything, the cooldown is short enough that it won't really matter even if you start fighting immediately AFTER pressing the button.
Maybe if they increased the volume of the sound effect so that marines could easily pinpoint your location if you use metab? That would at least give you a reason to think about not using it (as it is it's quieter even than crouched fade footsteps). With how blink screams though I doubt it would really make a difference without being deafening to the player playing the fade.
Metabolise means you can't swipe.
Fair tradeoffs for 10% net energy gain.
The current Metabolize upgrades feels rather lackluster since it's essentially a mix of Adrenaline and Regen.
It really doesn't need a drawback. It's not mindless. Basically what joshhh said.
Care to explain? In what possible way could mindlessly mashing metab (when not going in for an attack) make you a worse fade? Or was that exactly the situation you had in mind, which i still think requires no thought whatsoever.
Using metab in combat is where the skill of the ability is. You need to know the timing of the animation, the energy requirements and if using it would even help you over just landing quicker swipes. Using it correctly against medpacked marines with aim isn't mindless and will get you killed if you mess up.
It takes the same amount of time as 1 swipe, and there is enough time in between the cooldown for 3 swipes. Meanwhile, in that 4-swipe window, a good fade will usually only even attempt to swipe one time, with the rest of the time spent moving during which you are free to metabolize.
The real "skill" to metab is spamming the shift key in time with the cooldown while still maintaining your dodging movements. Sort of like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach while jumping on one foot. If you are so convinced that the skill is all to do with managing your attack/metab timings, then they should just make metab autofire while you hold shift.
If you can carefully go over how a 'good' fade only goes for 1 swipe when there is an opportunity for 4 that would be great. You are aware you're not immune to damage while metabolizing, yes? And any competent marine won't waste an entire clip shooting at a target that is intentionally baiting bullets and not contributing in any way to a fight. While you dance in the air metabing the other lifeforms have died or left. But at least you have full energy. Yay!
Metabolise is far louder than jumps and swipes and would be used travelling between combat giving marines an advantage on preparation. (Although equally you could use the metabolise sound to bait marines to a different entrance so skulks could come in the other side, but "u cant expect public coordination l0l0l0l")
ps. @sebb check the disagree i got few posts back, made me chuckle
- Hold down your left mouse button while the metabolize ability is selected, and fly around the map with it (or in combat if you're good)
- Utilize the quickswitch key to switch to swipe and back when needed
Rinse and repeat. I don't think that qualifies as spamming unless you're hitting the special movement key every time to use it.
Metab does something really simple... it gives you a larger energy pool (when managed correctly) which allows good fades more options to how they want to approach/engage and, more importantly, extends their time in combat. Maybe its just me but I personally felt that the pre-metab fade was extremely limited. Could you still be effective with it? Yes, but it still was limited. Spamming it outside of combat simply announces your position to the entire map... so if that's what you want to do, then go for it.
At a higher level, fades typically try and time their swipes around the marines fire patterns. Now, if your telling me, you can successfully dodge sg fire, while timing swipes in between shotgun shots, WHILE spamming metab like a mindless robot... well then feel free to take my spot on titus because you sir are a fcking wizard.
Or press shift?
Including the original
or the very fast one from several patches ago
This one just feels like a lesser version of the two, I felt the original fade was the hardest to master and we had some amazing fades back then - now I feel that most of them are handicapped, but much easier for a beginner to understand.. personally my least favorite
What do you mean by "original"? Surely not the beta fade?
This has been a theme with NS2 "skill" additions since 250ish. The new skulk and fade movement have elements of this as well.
Honestly wish whoever keeps designing these systems would just stop messing with it, you're doing a fucking horrible job.
Now it all makes sense.