yeesh.. ok.. People were talking about the original exo's, which had massive power but also massive drawbacks. The time to somewhat balance THAT exo would not be something to disregard, as their introduction to the game basically mandated massive changes to everything else.. I am saying you need to decide WHAT exos should be, then balance them. Otherwise you're just chasing your tail trying to balance something which isn't truly anything...
Also, if you think the base game is relatively 'balanced', then I really dont have much to say. Sure there might not be any one thing which is massively overpowered, but that hardly means everything has a place and a good purpose - exos just being one example of many there.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2014
Not to suggest something homogeneous for the sake of it, but i feel that just like the Onos wouldn't fit in the category of "massive power but also massive drawbacks" .. neither should the Exo.
A glass cannon design is frustrating at best, difficult to balance (think of a seesaw), and very difficult for a player to learn.
If anything I feel like the Exo should have a role more like the Onos: a late game pres investment that serves as a strong offense or defense capability with a decent range of mobility to adapt to changing situations - but if caught un supported can mean almost certain death depending on the counter attack size.
This doesn't mean it shares roles that the rest of the team shares, just like an Onos does not scout like a skulk or lerk and is not a hit and run fade; a welder on an Exo doesn't fit imo.
This is why i feel the only real missing ingredient to shaping the Exo's role is mobility.. it's never been addressed because the art of the model has been allowed to dictate the gameplay. (it looks like a tank so it should feel like one?) Jetpacks are chosen and preferred because of the mobility they get from it, because they are able to somewhat close the gap of advantage that aliens have in a melee / ranged game - slow moving melee aliens would NEVER have a chance against a ranged team, for instance.
So why not utilize the thrusters like any mech game, and remove any movement penalties from the exo?
Doing these two things alone would be a huge step in viability and wouldn't pigeonhole the Exo into some niche role, but also wouldn't come with the downsides of a glasscannon role or a redundant role (to prevent spamming) - but yet resemble a role more familiar and evenly matched with the enemy team at that time in the round.
For all to read since we believe in open development :
The balance suggestion I gave the CDT regarding Exos on 6/11/2014
Implement NS2+ exo changes regarding obscuring elements
The fact that you people can't complain about anything other than the exo or GL at this point, suggests to me that NS2 overall is at a very comfortable place balance-wise!
Honestly guys, the exo is not really a balance concern - marines do fine without it. It's more like a "I want this feature to be viable because it would be fun!"- concern.
Anyway, @IronHorse's suggestion is very sound imo. NS2 is a game that emphasizes on individual skill, anything that deminishes that (like poor mobillity), will naturally be avoided.
I like the compmod idea of making it faster and smaller so it fits in to phasegates - and basically making it like a regular marine with catpacks and extra hp. However, I too think the welder needs to be removed (and remove hmg, it overlaps with minigun).
gl player damage: it's just ridicolous how easily you can kill lifeforms as an (sometimes even unintended) sideeffect when attacking a hive. spamming grenades randomly to positions aliens are likely to attack from is also pretty nasty... random kills are not really that rewarding for the marine (imo) and potentially frustrating for the aliens. should that really be the intended role of a gl (on top of being very effective against single or multiple structures), for only 15 pres?
exos: i guess most people agree that they need some kind of buff, question is just how. it seems really hard to say what's best, maybe try out some variations during internal testing?
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
We could also give the emp back but this time to the exo rather then the mac.
/just throwing out ideas.
It would limit close range combat on the exo as aliens would get less attacks in aswell as limit close range bilebombs.
It would not however stop them completely.
We could also give the emp back but this time to the exo rather then the mac.
/just throwing out ideas.
It would limit close range combat on the exo as aliens would get less attacks in aswell as limit close range bilebombs.
It would not however stop them completely.
That's a possibility, but I think the energy/disability functionality should be left to flamethrowers.
Let's not overcomplicate this.
In terms of a vent-clearing grenade, I always thought that a "burst" or "napalm"-style grenade would make an interesting addition to NS2. It would function based off of the amount of surface area covered, which would always be consistent regardless of the volume of the space it was thrown into.
To explain by way of example: let's say that the grenade always covered 100 square feet (an arbitrary number for the purposes of this explanation).
----If thrown into a large, empty space (e.g., cargo), this would produce a perfectly circular burst.
----If thrown up against a wall, the burst would not be able to extend further in the direction of the obstructing wall, so it would travel further in the opposite direction (away from the wall), still covering an area of 100 square feet.
----If thrown into a vent, the area covered by the blast would conform to the shape of the vent, lengthening as it did so. This would happen in both directions, of course, so a burst of fire would also exit from the vent entrance the grenade was thrown into.
For all to read since we believe in open development :
The balance suggestion I gave the CDT regarding Exos on 6/11/2014
Implement NS2+ exo changes regarding obscuring elements
Remove slow down penalty when firing
Allow use of thrusters in any direction
Remove Beacon effecting Exos
15% increase in armor
Good suggestions, it would make exo's a bit more fun to play as, if not a little overpowered. I at least suggest that on top of those changes that exosuits shouldn't have infinite ammo.
They're a bit too campy and a forward exo can hold ground indefinitely, so increasing their mobility should come at a cost to how long they can stay in a fight.
Plus it would give more reason for a player to actually eject from an exosuit if needed.
@IeptBarakat
Not sure if OP is the right term, considering that their price is even greater than a JP/SG for only a single-gun. At the very least, these changes would make a single gun Exo an equivelant purchase (power wise) to JP+Gun.
I think the goal of balancing Exos should have their power = their price. Similar to the Onos.
@IronHorse Those suggestions make sense in some regard except the boosters one if what I assume is being able to use them to boost backwards while facing forwards. That would make even the current Exosuit utterly broken, Onos would never be able to engage an Exo unless cornered and fades/skulks/lerks deal damage and survive by moving rapidly around them. Adding thrusters like that completely negates any melee advantage aliens have. The only answer to Exo from this would be bile/lerk spam.
Even if Exos can't fire while doing this, it doesn't matter because it allows quick repositioning (boosters are quite quick actually especially on single arm) which will almost always force an Onos back to retreat or give you enough time to burst down the lifeform hitting you.
@IeptBarakat
Not sure if OP is the right term, considering that their price is even greater than a JP/SG for only a single-gun. At the very least, these changes would make a single gun Exo an equivelant purchase (power wise) to JP+Gun.
I think the goal of balancing Exos should have their power = their price. Similar to the Onos.
But this Onos has dual miniguns and would be thrusting around you. Like RazDaz said, it would be broken balance wise.
Btw, do single gun exo's have more thrust power/move faster than dual exo's? That could be a good tradeoff.
As far as I know, single gun exos only have a speed bonus in basic running, not thrusting.
The thrusters, while fast, would really only allow the Exo to thrust once before the cooldown kicks in, leaving the exo in essentially the same spot its in now.
This is all just from my opinion, which may be inacurate. I mean, how often do ANY of us actually get to use exos at a stage in the game where marines still have a chance to lose.
The burst duration, speed, and cooldown time can be adjusted for balance, but the multi-directional thrusters would just be fun
all im saying is that one thrust for 2-3 meters every 10 seconds hardly seems anywhere near the pain in the ass of JPs (especially in areas like cargo....)
I personally like the idea of very short range boosts (maybe 1.5 times the width of the exo itself) that can be fired in any direction quickly, and can be chained for 2 or 3 boosts before the "energy" runs out.
Advantages:
- Short-range multi-directional manuverability for combat situations
- Semi Skill-based movement potential (chains can be used in a variety of ways)
- Distance of the boost (or "shift") isn't enough for aliens to lose track of the target, but just enough to avoid a salvo of damage for a short time.
The goal here is to have a bit of maneuverability that can be applied in combat to avoid some damage, but not in such a way that makes the Exo in question impossible to catch.
I.E. Not like ShadowStep is currently on a fade, where the position is changed 3-4 "fade-lengths" almost instantly. More like how marine strafing and jumping is currently.
A skilled marine would be able use this to stay alive considerably longer by timing, aiming, and predicting. While a less-skilled marine is able to do so as well, just to a lesser extent.
I'd be fully ok to have weapons stop firing while in boost, however, I would not be ok with them having to rev up again after a boost.
Such a mechanic is similar to an Onos charge, in that it can be used offensively or defensively, but only in a reasonably straight line, and the difference here is that the boost is very small in length. It's sorta a Leap meets Shadowstep meets Charge but miniscule.
Onos get crags, hives, mucus from drifters, and regen to regain health. The exo gets a marine that may or may not have a welder, and macs (which are completely worthless once they get hit. Whenever I have tried to go exo, I've almost always died while screaming into the mic that I need a weld about half an hour before it actually happens. So you end up with 2 situations: either everyone has their welders out and everyone dies or no one has any welders out and the exo dies (also everyone dies).
There are a few situations where they are really good, but right now they're like a 60 pres flamethrower.
It's just so much more effective and cheaper to not buy an exo and just rush the hive lmgs a blazing.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
well we cant do everything to a exo, balance and stuff.
In my opinion and correct me if im wrong, exo's are weak due to weak mobility and relative weak armour. (yes they have a chunk but due to size, LoS etc, a bunch of skulks can have a party with a exo)
I do not believe it should receive TO much mobility in terms of turning and stuff, its big. Speed I have less issues with.
Which makes me think what we can do about armour repair.
well we cant do everything to a exo, balance and stuff.
In my opinion and correct me if im wrong, exo's are weak due to weak mobility and relative weak armour. (yes they have a chunk but due to size, LoS etc, a bunch of skulks can have a party with a exo)
I do not believe it should receive TO much mobility in terms of turning and stuff, its big. Speed I have less issues with.
Which makes me think what we can do about armour repair.
We can work with three variables:
- Mobility
- Armor
- Damage Output
Exos are already fairly mobile. Compare the old Exos - in fact, there was quite some backlash when they suddenly were lightning fast glass cannons. This is just my personal opinion, but if anything, they should become less mobile.
This leaves to variables to alter: Armor and Damage. I think we can agree on an increase in armor - Exos die waaay too quickly at the moment. Damage would have to be balanced somehow. (magic)
You could also leave them how they are and increase the range of the fist. It was easier to kill skulks with it in older builds. Now you can barely hit the ground under your feet. That would increase the chances to survive a single skulk. Could lead to too many lerk kills though.
Or optimize the minigun effect that way that it doesn't eat away your FPS with hundreds of extra draw calls -> more hits.
Or give the exo a new upgrade option beside dual weapons -> motion tracking like in ns1, maybe with a smaller range
Those suggestions make sense in some regard except the boosters one if what I assume is being able to use them to boost backwards while facing forwards. That would make even the current Exosuit utterly broken, Onos would never be able to engage an Exo unless cornered and fades/skulks/lerks deal damage and survive by moving rapidly around them. Adding thrusters like that completely negates any melee advantage aliens have.
Again i'll bring up Jetpacks.. They accomplish WAY WAY more than Exos, even if they had thrusters, and yet they are not considered "broken".
Keep in mind that the Onos moves at 7.5 speed.
Ignoring exterior factors (like enzyme or medpacks or teammates) :
The JP's viability beats the Exo in all ways but one - the Exo kills a fully upgraded Onos 27% faster.. BUT the Exo is also half the speed, stays on the ground (jetpack can potentially be untouchable from an Onos), slower than an Onos, cannot be dropped by commanders and is 25-45 pres more costly!!
Keep in mind i am not even suggesting to change this - only the first box in that picture. (I am not personally sure yet about the 15% increase in armor with these movement changes - need to test)
But I understand your concern and would definitely suggest increasing the thruster cooldown time from 2.5 sec to 5, to make it a more skilled / timed ability.
You don't really need to adjust the thruster timing itself, even for backwards directional usage, as it only lasts for 1.5 seconds and STILL cannot outpace a WALKING Onos.
i think macs should be a purchasable upgrade that a marine buys at the robotics lab then it just follows you about and repairs you make them a little tougher to
Comments
Also, if you think the base game is relatively 'balanced', then I really dont have much to say. Sure there might not be any one thing which is massively overpowered, but that hardly means everything has a place and a good purpose - exos just being one example of many there.
A glass cannon design is frustrating at best, difficult to balance (think of a seesaw), and very difficult for a player to learn.
If anything I feel like the Exo should have a role more like the Onos: a late game pres investment that serves as a strong offense or defense capability with a decent range of mobility to adapt to changing situations - but if caught un supported can mean almost certain death depending on the counter attack size.
This doesn't mean it shares roles that the rest of the team shares, just like an Onos does not scout like a skulk or lerk and is not a hit and run fade; a welder on an Exo doesn't fit imo.
This is why i feel the only real missing ingredient to shaping the Exo's role is mobility.. it's never been addressed because the art of the model has been allowed to dictate the gameplay. (it looks like a tank so it should feel like one?) Jetpacks are chosen and preferred because of the mobility they get from it, because they are able to somewhat close the gap of advantage that aliens have in a melee / ranged game - slow moving melee aliens would NEVER have a chance against a ranged team, for instance.
So why not utilize the thrusters like any mech game, and remove any movement penalties from the exo?
Doing these two things alone would be a huge step in viability and wouldn't pigeonhole the Exo into some niche role, but also wouldn't come with the downsides of a glasscannon role or a redundant role (to prevent spamming) - but yet resemble a role more familiar and evenly matched with the enemy team at that time in the round.
For all to read since we believe in open development :
The balance suggestion I gave the CDT regarding Exos on 6/11/2014
Honestly guys, the exo is not really a balance concern - marines do fine without it. It's more like a "I want this feature to be viable because it would be fun!"- concern.
Anyway, @IronHorse's suggestion is very sound imo. NS2 is a game that emphasizes on individual skill, anything that deminishes that (like poor mobillity), will naturally be avoided.
I like the compmod idea of making it faster and smaller so it fits in to phasegates - and basically making it like a regular marine with catpacks and extra hp. However, I too think the welder needs to be removed (and remove hmg, it overlaps with minigun).
Stupid ground-skulks! :P
gl player damage: it's just ridicolous how easily you can kill lifeforms as an (sometimes even unintended) sideeffect when attacking a hive. spamming grenades randomly to positions aliens are likely to attack from is also pretty nasty... random kills are not really that rewarding for the marine (imo) and potentially frustrating for the aliens. should that really be the intended role of a gl (on top of being very effective against single or multiple structures), for only 15 pres?
exos: i guess most people agree that they need some kind of buff, question is just how. it seems really hard to say what's best, maybe try out some variations during internal testing?
/just throwing out ideas.
It would limit close range combat on the exo as aliens would get less attacks in aswell as limit close range bilebombs.
It would not however stop them completely.
Let's not overcomplicate this.
Onos-grapling hook as an upgrade for the exo-fist.
just saying...
To explain by way of example: let's say that the grenade always covered 100 square feet (an arbitrary number for the purposes of this explanation).
----If thrown into a large, empty space (e.g., cargo), this would produce a perfectly circular burst.
----If thrown up against a wall, the burst would not be able to extend further in the direction of the obstructing wall, so it would travel further in the opposite direction (away from the wall), still covering an area of 100 square feet.
----If thrown into a vent, the area covered by the blast would conform to the shape of the vent, lengthening as it did so. This would happen in both directions, of course, so a burst of fire would also exit from the vent entrance the grenade was thrown into.
Good suggestions, it would make exo's a bit more fun to play as, if not a little overpowered. I at least suggest that on top of those changes that exosuits shouldn't have infinite ammo.
They're a bit too campy and a forward exo can hold ground indefinitely, so increasing their mobility should come at a cost to how long they can stay in a fight.
Plus it would give more reason for a player to actually eject from an exosuit if needed.
P.S. I want dual flamethrower exosuits.
I doubt so, as commander I would prioritize exos with ammo drops.
Also, the ejecting/taking seat animation is way to slow to be practical.
Not sure if OP is the right term, considering that their price is even greater than a JP/SG for only a single-gun. At the very least, these changes would make a single gun Exo an equivelant purchase (power wise) to JP+Gun.
I think the goal of balancing Exos should have their power = their price. Similar to the Onos.
Even if Exos can't fire while doing this, it doesn't matter because it allows quick repositioning (boosters are quite quick actually especially on single arm) which will almost always force an Onos back to retreat or give you enough time to burst down the lifeform hitting you.
I approve of the other design choices however.
But this Onos has dual miniguns and would be thrusting around you. Like RazDaz said, it would be broken balance wise.
Btw, do single gun exo's have more thrust power/move faster than dual exo's? That could be a good tradeoff.
The thrusters, while fast, would really only allow the Exo to thrust once before the cooldown kicks in, leaving the exo in essentially the same spot its in now.
This is all just from my opinion, which may be inacurate. I mean, how often do ANY of us actually get to use exos at a stage in the game where marines still have a chance to lose.
The burst duration, speed, and cooldown time can be adjusted for balance, but the multi-directional thrusters would just be fun
Yeah... for marines.
Advantages:
- Short-range multi-directional manuverability for combat situations
- Semi Skill-based movement potential (chains can be used in a variety of ways)
- Distance of the boost (or "shift") isn't enough for aliens to lose track of the target, but just enough to avoid a salvo of damage for a short time.
The goal here is to have a bit of maneuverability that can be applied in combat to avoid some damage, but not in such a way that makes the Exo in question impossible to catch.
I.E. Not like ShadowStep is currently on a fade, where the position is changed 3-4 "fade-lengths" almost instantly. More like how marine strafing and jumping is currently.
A skilled marine would be able use this to stay alive considerably longer by timing, aiming, and predicting. While a less-skilled marine is able to do so as well, just to a lesser extent.
I'd be fully ok to have weapons stop firing while in boost, however, I would not be ok with them having to rev up again after a boost.
Such a mechanic is similar to an Onos charge, in that it can be used offensively or defensively, but only in a reasonably straight line, and the difference here is that the boost is very small in length. It's sorta a Leap meets Shadowstep meets Charge but miniscule.
There are a few situations where they are really good, but right now they're like a 60 pres flamethrower.
It's just so much more effective and cheaper to not buy an exo and just rush the hive lmgs a blazing.
A selfweld thingy.
"Selfweld nano boost - instantly repairs 200 armor, can only be used once a minute."
But that's all just gimmicks. The Exo needs some fundamental balance changes to become viable, not a gimmick.
In my opinion and correct me if im wrong, exo's are weak due to weak mobility and relative weak armour. (yes they have a chunk but due to size, LoS etc, a bunch of skulks can have a party with a exo)
I do not believe it should receive TO much mobility in terms of turning and stuff, its big. Speed I have less issues with.
Which makes me think what we can do about armour repair.
We can work with three variables:
- Mobility
- Armor
- Damage Output
Exos are already fairly mobile. Compare the old Exos - in fact, there was quite some backlash when they suddenly were lightning fast glass cannons. This is just my personal opinion, but if anything, they should become less mobile.
This leaves to variables to alter: Armor and Damage. I think we can agree on an increase in armor - Exos die waaay too quickly at the moment. Damage would have to be balanced somehow. (magic)
Or optimize the minigun effect that way that it doesn't eat away your FPS with hundreds of extra draw calls -> more hits.
Or give the exo a new upgrade option beside dual weapons -> motion tracking like in ns1, maybe with a smaller range
Keep in mind that the Onos moves at 7.5 speed.
Ignoring exterior factors (like enzyme or medpacks or teammates) :
The JP's viability beats the Exo in all ways but one - the Exo kills a fully upgraded Onos 27% faster..
BUT the Exo is also half the speed, stays on the ground (jetpack can potentially be untouchable from an Onos), slower than an Onos, cannot be dropped by commanders and is 25-45 pres more costly!!
Keep in mind i am not even suggesting to change this - only the first box in that picture. (I am not personally sure yet about the 15% increase in armor with these movement changes - need to test)
But I understand your concern and would definitely suggest increasing the thruster cooldown time from 2.5 sec to 5, to make it a more skilled / timed ability.
You don't really need to adjust the thruster timing itself, even for backwards directional usage, as it only lasts for 1.5 seconds and STILL cannot outpace a WALKING Onos.