I wasn't reffering to an upgradeable weapon. More like a concede function... make it fun... only drawback is people may concede just to see a crazy killing ai lol
Huge lerk with the flamethrower attack. Dragons. With Jesus lerks flying around the dragon to take DMG for the cause.
Xeno is there to provide a reason for matinees to stop aliens from getting 3rd give and for aliens to have a strategy in the event that aliens don't have high life forms (say they all died but aliens have map control) it is an end game tech to harm entrenched marine positions as with most 3rd hive advantages.
I would argue that the solution would be to give marines a reason to have 3rd tech point that would end game winners of the same power can calibur as xeno or contaminate. A super weapon or ability.
Perhaps the ability to fill a room with nanites that repair any marine unit or structure in a large area (counterpart to contaminate).
Not sure what the counterpart to xeno would be, maybe everyone spawns equipped with hand grenades? Or maybe some devastating ability.
They need to be game enders is what I'm saying, and it creates a desperate struggle to get that third tech point. From marine perspective, xenocide is demoralizing. For aliens there is nothing (that costs free) that would worry aliens other than map control.
So just switch Concede to Self Destruct! Kill all players and structure and make them kill anything within a certain area of them!
WIN FOR BOTH SIDES
triple speed skulks, with instant xenocide and instant respawn. using a gorge model... i'm basically saying make marines conceding turn all your slow lings into banelings.
aliens concede, give us q3 railguns with massive damage included. 3 shots for a RT type damage.
that is a win condition i could see being awesomesauce.
I wasn't reffering to an upgradeable weapon. More like a concede function... make it fun... only drawback is people may concede just to see a crazy killing ai lol
Huge lerk with the flamethrower attack. Dragons. With Jesus lerks flying around the dragon to take DMG for the cause.
Well there is the one mod that a server runs that makes the concede option into you have to go kill a hive or chair to end the game. Enemies do no damage at that point and if you kill any it decreases the amount of time you have to kill the hive/chair. Wonder if that could be changed into random endings.... like can evolve into like a lerk with flamethrower attack or whatever. Although if it is too fun it might make teams want to force concedes.... Which isn't cool either, nobody wants to have a team sitting outside their tech point waiting for your team to concede so they can have 15 seconds of fun.
I have always thought xeno damage should scale with skulk health. You are at 100% health you do 100% damage. 50% health, 50% damage. Would add some skill into it. This is especially relevant in combat mod.
I have always thought xeno damage should scale with skulk health. You are at 100% health you do 100% damage. 50% health, 50% damage. Would add some skill into it. This is especially relevant in combat mod.
Xeno should not be in combat mod, period. Some things translate well, others, just no.
Xeno translates just fine. It discourages marines to group up, and this allows lifeforms to do their work because the worst counter to a fade/onos/lerk is multiple marines. When marines are grouped up, fades, onos, and lerks will take more hits than usual. Then again, maybe we need to remove the flamethrower and GL while we are at. Nothing more fun than a marine spamming nades into an area denying skulks and lerks.
I find it challenging and fun, to get more than 5 marines killed with xeno. My record is 7/11 marines. Only reason it works is because marines bunch up.
People did complain because that specific game I got 7/11 marines killed, I also had many 5+ marine kills with one xeno that game. I and another player explained that if they did not group up in balls xeno would not be effective. Two waves, two mass xeno kills later, marines stopped balling up. This if anything made them play better because they could now shoot skulks off other teammates feet.
You can't do anything vs a jetpack as skulk, but xeno.
Yes you can leap, but try that on Cargo or something, webs are useless.
I'd say jetpack rush is endgame for marines, unless you got a REALLY good team, you can't stop it.
Exactly. Without xeno, skulks are pathetic compared to jps. Tbh, I think the JP is a lot more op... least 2 xenos can't kill structures,lifeforms, and/or hive like 2-3 JPs with gls and/or flamethrowers. Another topic I guess, and I'm sure there would be a lot of people disagreeing with me.
You can't do anything vs a jetpack as skulk, but xeno.
Yes you can leap, but try that on Cargo or something, webs are useless.
I'd say jetpack rush is endgame for marines, unless you got a REALLY good team, you can't stop it.
What?
If you know what you're doing, you'll find killing jetpack marines with just bite (and maybe leap) is very, very possible.
if they aren't actively shooting you. and you don't have the long teeth advantage. lag bites.
Yes yes, if you're super good you can knife an Onos.
But seriously, 3 JP/GL can fly into most big hive locations and just casually nade down the Hive, while no skulk can reach them.
I know you can take on a JP as skulk, but the problem lies of course with more than one and the average player skill level. You need Lerks and Fades and GOOD ones at that, while a rookie JP/GL can be just as effective.
And of course, when your luck runs out, the JP/GL turns around, lobs a nade in your general direction, blows your face off. 50 res gone.
JP/GL rushes are basically unstoppable. I've seen it so many times, 3/4 Hives, marines down to nothing and then they get one sneaky PG, rush a hive, beacon, aliens are confused, another rush and suddenly the game is over. But even if you see them coming, you can't stop them. They just fly past and the nades kill everything in a 50m radius.
Furthermore, Aliens are limited by their energy, while a jetpack can almost instantly take off again.
If you think you're likely to get a kill on any marine that's actively shooting you, I can see why jetpackers might be a problem.
Seriously, very few players use jetpacks well enough for them to be of use for anything except rushing cargo hive and rushing to save RTs that shouldnt be being bitten in the first place.
JP/GL rushes are basically unstoppable. I've seen it so many times, 3/4 Hives, marines down to nothing and then they get one sneaky PG, rush a hive, beacon, aliens are confused, another rush and suddenly the game is over.
If marines are down to nothing and you have 3/4 hives, then you really, really need to base trade to win the game in the event of a JP rush like that. Proper scouting sees the rush coming, and allows you to prepare to rush their base as soon as they start on the hive, then they have to decide whether to beacon and lose the PG and maybe take down some lifeforms, or completely lose their entire base and maybe stand a chance at relocating.
3/4 hives vs 1 CC and then losing? Sorry that's not the game's fault, that's simply failing to work as a team.
I'd really like to see the over 50% chance of skulks killing 1-2 jpers in cargo that are conserving their fuel and gling the hive (and eggs, and structures) being killed by a few skulks with just leap. Best case scenario is they kill them, but the marines pushed everything back while your entire team tries to fight the glers.
I say over 50% because I originally said not likely but not impossible.
I think Xeno is too powerful to be available for free. I have experienced a few games where the aliens are on the backfoot, with a majority of higher lifeforms dead and little res flow coming in, but due mostly to a lack of marine teamwork they've failed to take down that third hive location before xeno comes up. after that all the aliens are skulks (couldn't afford new higher lifeforms) and some will start blowing themselves up. it only takes a couple of skulks working together with Xeno to clear out a packed bunch of marines making it almost impossible to actually get to and destroy the hive.
A small P.res cost to evolve the ability (once researched) would make the ability more tactical in close matches without impacting on it's use to finish off a marine turtle (99% of the time aliens control most of the map and replenish p.res quickly by the time xeno is researched).
I think Xeno is too powerful to be available for free. I have experienced a few games where the aliens are on the backfoot, with a majority of higher lifeforms dead and little res flow coming in, but due mostly to a lack of marine teamwork they've failed to take down that third hive location before xeno comes up. after that all the aliens are skulks (couldn't afford new higher lifeforms) and some will start blowing themselves up. it only takes a couple of skulks working together with Xeno to clear out a packed bunch of marines making it almost impossible to actually get to and destroy the hive.
A small P.res cost to evolve the ability (once researched) would make the ability more tactical in close matches without impacting on it's use to finish off a marine turtle (99% of the time aliens control most of the map and replenish p.res quickly by the time xeno is researched).
There is a cost to Xeno - respawn timer. If all skulks are xenoing, this places great pressure on eggs available, and will allow marines to push a location. Also, if you don't bunch up, and have A3, xeno doesn't kill you out right, so some meds and welding will save you. If your team work is so poor that you can't push a hive after all the higher life forms are gone, then well, its anyone's game. Also, if you hit multiple locations at once, you will have a chance to take at least one hive down. There are many things your team could have done to swing the game in your favour, if you can't capitalize on it and let the aliens push you back, well...
If aliens have xeno and are using it, it is near impossible to push a hive, all it takes is 2 skulks working in tandem to obliterate any marine push.
I honestly believe xeno along with excessive gl/grenade spam is the worst aspect to this game in regards to gameplay, totally skill-less and frustrating to play against, and other than the odd time you kill a bunch of marines, xeno is pretty unrewarding to use.
i really like the idea of a 3 tech tree approach to each side, the commander decides which tech tree to pursue and all upgrades/ additional equipment come from that tree, some require 1 tech point and some more than 1. So the aliens would choose something along the lines of shade crag or shift tech and marines would choose robotics barracks and prototype tech. Each tree would have advantages and disadvantages.
The only issue would be adding all the additional conent to make all tech paths viable
as an example
the robotics tech tree would have
Armory
welder
heavy welder
shotgun
HE mine
gl
flamer
gas grenade
Robotics
MAC
ARC
Turrets
(flamer turret upgrade)
Prototype lab
single mini EXO
Obs pack (mobile observatory)
The barracks tech tree would have
Armory
welder
shotgun
AP mine
cluster grenade
flamer
HMG
Robotics
MAC
Turrets
Prototype lab
powered armor
Catpack (permanent boost to speed and melee attack speed)
I think Xeno is too powerful to be available for free. I have experienced a few games where the aliens are on the backfoot, with a majority of higher lifeforms dead and little res flow coming in, but due mostly to a lack of marine teamwork they've failed to take down that third hive location before xeno comes up. after that all the aliens are skulks (couldn't afford new higher lifeforms) and some will start blowing themselves up. it only takes a couple of skulks working together with Xeno to clear out a packed bunch of marines making it almost impossible to actually get to and destroy the hive.
A small P.res cost to evolve the ability (once researched) would make the ability more tactical in close matches without impacting on it's use to finish off a marine turtle (99% of the time aliens control most of the map and replenish p.res quickly by the time xeno is researched).
There is a cost to Xeno - respawn timer. If all skulks are xenoing, this places great pressure on eggs available, and will allow marines to push a location. Also, if you don't bunch up, and have A3, xeno doesn't kill you out right, so some meds and welding will save you. If your team work is so poor that you can't push a hive after all the higher life forms are gone, then well, its anyone's game. Also, if you hit multiple locations at once, you will have a chance to take at least one hive down. There are many things your team could have done to swing the game in your favour, if you can't capitalize on it and let the aliens push you back, well...
If you've got 3 hives, running out of eggs is unlikely unless you're playing in a 40player server with all the aliens going xeno... You only need 2 skulks with xeno to do huge amounts of damage to marines. instantly the closest marines are dead and the range of xeno is very large, stripping the armour of other nearby marines that surivive the initial blast. Now for them to push, they need med packs and 10 seconds to weld each other up back to full... the skulks that exploded will be spawning back in by then (theres no extended respawn timer for xeno) and that's not accounting for the rest of the alien team who arn't xeno'ing.
Have you actually tried taking down a hive with a few coordinated xeno skulks defending it? you don't have time to weld each other up constantly (if you stopped to do so after each xeno you'd never get anything done) and you can be 25ft away from the explosion and still take damage, spreading out will mitigate the damage somewhat but you're still going to find yourself without armour pretty quickly, and from there no amount of medpacks could stop a xeno killing you in 1 hit. Now you're not running in there with nothing but a rifle, so there will be a p.res cost when you die as well as a t.res cost for all that med support. If you're push fails once (maybe twice) you simply can't afford another one... the aliens meanwhile have had to spend a total of 0 p.res to defend that hive (but they may use t.res for support too). SO as the marine p.res dwindles the aliens expands and sooner or later the higher lifeforms start reappearing... at the time when you can no longer afford the tools to effectively deal with them.
It's not totally impossible for marines to succeed at this stage, but assuming equal teams, the balance shifts so far in aliens favour once xeno comes out, you're going to be fighting a losing battle...If you can push through and take out a hive at this stage i'd argue that the team was good enough that it never should have got to that stage, unless perhaps you got a ninja pg pretty shortly after the 3rd hive went up.
as I said before, Xeno is excellent for taking down marine turtles and I wouldn't want to see it removed entirely, at the moment though it's far to easy to get just 2 skulks working together to wreak havok. Your almost gaurenteed multiple kills and then the survivors are sat around welding each other up, making no progress whilst your waiting to respawn, you've possibly removed some marine equipment from the map (such as JP's) and you'll probably be back on the field before the marines you took down finish respawning.
To get xeno up you need:
2 Hives @ 40 res each = 80
1 Whip + Skulk upgrade = 30
4 Biomass from hives = 20+20+20+30 = 90 (could be 100 if you go with 2 biomass on your first two hives to have xeno as soon as the hive goes up)
So pretty much 200 res invested to get xeno. That also means no bile-bomb, and no upgrades, and no defenses save for the one whip. So if aliens get it up mid-game, they have sacrificed plenty of other things.
I have seen aliens run out of eggs on 20 man servers before once xeno is up. Also seen marines kill a hive after xeno has been up for a while.
I've got no problem with the research costs of Xenocide. I don't think i've ever seen it researched in place of other upgrades and it comes out late in the game... but late-game isn't end-game and it's entirely possible for both teams to reach max tech and still have a fairly even match-up.
In situations where the aliens have map control, xenocide works perfectly well.. but after playing a back and forth match where everything is still to play for after 25mins the buff it gives aliens is enourmous. the free lifeform becomes the ultimate killing machine with a minimal amount of teamwork and no p.res cost. In the past you had a prolonged respawn for using xeno (counted as suicide), looking further back, you didn't gain p.res whilst dead. both these were small drawbacks to overusing the ability. today, there are none. If i can't afford a lerk or a fade, i'm going to be using xenocide until i can (assuming we're not in dire need of a gorge). the chances of me doing less damage than i would without xeno against a3 marines are next to none..the chances of me doing more damage than i would in the same timeframe as a higher lifeform are very high.
No cost, no skill required, good chance of killing multiple marines, good chance of removing marine tech from the field and as a bare minimum you've softened them up for your team. It's a devestating ability that seriously buffs the alien team, moreso than exo's or jetpacks because it's free to replace. If marines arn't quick to respond they'll lose from attrition alone.
Xenocide is almost worthless on < 18p servers but becomes ever more powerful the higher the player count is. There's not necessarily a balance problem here because an equal game is alien 2TP VS marine 3TP with 1-2 consistently more RTs than aliens. If aliens pick up a 3rd TP, then the balance of power shifts heavily towards aliens with the help of tier 3 abilities, that is how they close the game. Marines end games with superior economy, able to acquire more jetpacks, dual exos and ARCs at a faster rate than aliens can replenish lifeforms while also throttling alien tech. Supreme late game: marines > aliens.
The only balance issue I have with Xeno is that 7 biomass, it should be moved to 8 to give marines a bit more time after the 3rd hive is dropped to organise and retaliate. Sweeping balance changes and complete redesigns are a really bad idea, only minor suggestions should be worthwhile that don't greatly impact the meta.
also, xeno on unupgraded skulks against marines that don't suck... is pretty pointless. weapons 3 tears through no cara slow skulks... kill the eggs, and they won't spawn underfoot. or, better yet, shoot the hive while a couple of your friends just look around for respawners.
Comments
Huge lerk with the flamethrower attack. Dragons. With Jesus lerks flying around the dragon to take DMG for the cause.
WIN FOR BOTH SIDES
arcs, as has ever been,
triple speed skulks, with instant xenocide and instant respawn. using a gorge model... i'm basically saying make marines conceding turn all your slow lings into banelings.
aliens concede, give us q3 railguns with massive damage included. 3 shots for a RT type damage.
that is a win condition i could see being awesomesauce.
Xeno should not be in combat mod, period. Some things translate well, others, just no.
People did complain because that specific game I got 7/11 marines killed, I also had many 5+ marine kills with one xeno that game. I and another player explained that if they did not group up in balls xeno would not be effective. Two waves, two mass xeno kills later, marines stopped balling up. This if anything made them play better because they could now shoot skulks off other teammates feet.
Yes you can leap, but try that on Cargo or something, webs are useless.
I'd say jetpack rush is endgame for marines, unless you got a REALLY good team, you can't stop it.
Exactly. Without xeno, skulks are pathetic compared to jps. Tbh, I think the JP is a lot more op... least 2 xenos can't kill structures,lifeforms, and/or hive like 2-3 JPs with gls and/or flamethrowers. Another topic I guess, and I'm sure there would be a lot of people disagreeing with me.
What?
If you know what you're doing, you'll find killing jetpack marines with just bite (and maybe leap) is very, very possible.
if they aren't actively shooting you. and you don't have the long teeth advantage. lag bites.
Possible? Yes. Likely? No.
Yes yes, if you're super good you can knife an Onos.
But seriously, 3 JP/GL can fly into most big hive locations and just casually nade down the Hive, while no skulk can reach them.
I know you can take on a JP as skulk, but the problem lies of course with more than one and the average player skill level. You need Lerks and Fades and GOOD ones at that, while a rookie JP/GL can be just as effective.
And of course, when your luck runs out, the JP/GL turns around, lobs a nade in your general direction, blows your face off. 50 res gone.
JP/GL rushes are basically unstoppable. I've seen it so many times, 3/4 Hives, marines down to nothing and then they get one sneaky PG, rush a hive, beacon, aliens are confused, another rush and suddenly the game is over. But even if you see them coming, you can't stop them. They just fly past and the nades kill everything in a 50m radius.
Furthermore, Aliens are limited by their energy, while a jetpack can almost instantly take off again.
Seriously, very few players use jetpacks well enough for them to be of use for anything except rushing cargo hive and rushing to save RTs that shouldnt be being bitten in the first place.
I stand by my post. Jetpackers aint no thang
If marines are down to nothing and you have 3/4 hives, then you really, really need to base trade to win the game in the event of a JP rush like that. Proper scouting sees the rush coming, and allows you to prepare to rush their base as soon as they start on the hive, then they have to decide whether to beacon and lose the PG and maybe take down some lifeforms, or completely lose their entire base and maybe stand a chance at relocating.
3/4 hives vs 1 CC and then losing? Sorry that's not the game's fault, that's simply failing to work as a team.
I say over 50% because I originally said not likely but not impossible.
A small P.res cost to evolve the ability (once researched) would make the ability more tactical in close matches without impacting on it's use to finish off a marine turtle (99% of the time aliens control most of the map and replenish p.res quickly by the time xeno is researched).
There is a cost to Xeno - respawn timer. If all skulks are xenoing, this places great pressure on eggs available, and will allow marines to push a location. Also, if you don't bunch up, and have A3, xeno doesn't kill you out right, so some meds and welding will save you. If your team work is so poor that you can't push a hive after all the higher life forms are gone, then well, its anyone's game. Also, if you hit multiple locations at once, you will have a chance to take at least one hive down. There are many things your team could have done to swing the game in your favour, if you can't capitalize on it and let the aliens push you back, well...
If aliens have xeno and are using it, it is near impossible to push a hive, all it takes is 2 skulks working in tandem to obliterate any marine push.
I honestly believe xeno along with excessive gl/grenade spam is the worst aspect to this game in regards to gameplay, totally skill-less and frustrating to play against, and other than the odd time you kill a bunch of marines, xeno is pretty unrewarding to use.
The only issue would be adding all the additional conent to make all tech paths viable
as an example
the robotics tech tree would have
Armory
welder
heavy welder
shotgun
HE mine
gl
flamer
gas grenade
Robotics
MAC
ARC
Turrets
(flamer turret upgrade)
Prototype lab
single mini EXO
Obs pack (mobile observatory)
The barracks tech tree would have
Armory
welder
shotgun
AP mine
cluster grenade
flamer
HMG
Robotics
MAC
Turrets
Prototype lab
powered armor
Catpack (permanent boost to speed and melee attack speed)
I can live with xeno endgame if marines have all but lost, as it does speed it up.
Its when xeno pops up in the middle of a game that I hate it, Which fortunately isn't that often.
If you've got 3 hives, running out of eggs is unlikely unless you're playing in a 40player server with all the aliens going xeno... You only need 2 skulks with xeno to do huge amounts of damage to marines. instantly the closest marines are dead and the range of xeno is very large, stripping the armour of other nearby marines that surivive the initial blast. Now for them to push, they need med packs and 10 seconds to weld each other up back to full... the skulks that exploded will be spawning back in by then (theres no extended respawn timer for xeno) and that's not accounting for the rest of the alien team who arn't xeno'ing.
Have you actually tried taking down a hive with a few coordinated xeno skulks defending it? you don't have time to weld each other up constantly (if you stopped to do so after each xeno you'd never get anything done) and you can be 25ft away from the explosion and still take damage, spreading out will mitigate the damage somewhat but you're still going to find yourself without armour pretty quickly, and from there no amount of medpacks could stop a xeno killing you in 1 hit. Now you're not running in there with nothing but a rifle, so there will be a p.res cost when you die as well as a t.res cost for all that med support. If you're push fails once (maybe twice) you simply can't afford another one... the aliens meanwhile have had to spend a total of 0 p.res to defend that hive (but they may use t.res for support too). SO as the marine p.res dwindles the aliens expands and sooner or later the higher lifeforms start reappearing... at the time when you can no longer afford the tools to effectively deal with them.
It's not totally impossible for marines to succeed at this stage, but assuming equal teams, the balance shifts so far in aliens favour once xeno comes out, you're going to be fighting a losing battle...If you can push through and take out a hive at this stage i'd argue that the team was good enough that it never should have got to that stage, unless perhaps you got a ninja pg pretty shortly after the 3rd hive went up.
as I said before, Xeno is excellent for taking down marine turtles and I wouldn't want to see it removed entirely, at the moment though it's far to easy to get just 2 skulks working together to wreak havok. Your almost gaurenteed multiple kills and then the survivors are sat around welding each other up, making no progress whilst your waiting to respawn, you've possibly removed some marine equipment from the map (such as JP's) and you'll probably be back on the field before the marines you took down finish respawning.
2 Hives @ 40 res each = 80
1 Whip + Skulk upgrade = 30
4 Biomass from hives = 20+20+20+30 = 90 (could be 100 if you go with 2 biomass on your first two hives to have xeno as soon as the hive goes up)
So pretty much 200 res invested to get xeno. That also means no bile-bomb, and no upgrades, and no defenses save for the one whip. So if aliens get it up mid-game, they have sacrificed plenty of other things.
I have seen aliens run out of eggs on 20 man servers before once xeno is up. Also seen marines kill a hive after xeno has been up for a while.
In situations where the aliens have map control, xenocide works perfectly well.. but after playing a back and forth match where everything is still to play for after 25mins the buff it gives aliens is enourmous. the free lifeform becomes the ultimate killing machine with a minimal amount of teamwork and no p.res cost. In the past you had a prolonged respawn for using xeno (counted as suicide), looking further back, you didn't gain p.res whilst dead. both these were small drawbacks to overusing the ability. today, there are none. If i can't afford a lerk or a fade, i'm going to be using xenocide until i can (assuming we're not in dire need of a gorge). the chances of me doing less damage than i would without xeno against a3 marines are next to none..the chances of me doing more damage than i would in the same timeframe as a higher lifeform are very high.
No cost, no skill required, good chance of killing multiple marines, good chance of removing marine tech from the field and as a bare minimum you've softened them up for your team. It's a devestating ability that seriously buffs the alien team, moreso than exo's or jetpacks because it's free to replace. If marines arn't quick to respond they'll lose from attrition alone.
The only balance issue I have with Xeno is that 7 biomass, it should be moved to 8 to give marines a bit more time after the 3rd hive is dropped to organise and retaliate. Sweeping balance changes and complete redesigns are a really bad idea, only minor suggestions should be worthwhile that don't greatly impact the meta.
better yet, don't all be in the splash radius.