Congrats, you killed an overcommitted fade and an unsupported onos that should've just left. Lifeforms that play like that should die.
The Onos should've destroyed me though. I guess I can agree though that the movement change should make gores easier. I still don't see a viable reason as to why to reduce gore damage besides "Marines not having armor and getting lawnmowered.". Marines don't have armor, that's a mechanic that is exploited by the aliens. Should we be upset that Lerks spike down marine armor and Fades can 1 - 2 shot that unarmored marine?
I'm willing to test this mod out, but I think a few people didn't agree to more than tweaks in numbers for changes with this balance mod.
Lol subtle bragging about solo'ing an Onos that made a huge mistake and trying to argue balance about it.
I don't understand.
Yes, thank you Locklear. Thank you for your well thought out, constructed, and civil post that is contributing to this thread. If me linking to my videos offends you, then please find another video I can link where a marine solos an Onos in competitive play because I haven't been here long enough to know of any instances.
ye fiskbit i agree u should totally always have armor when about 2 fite onos o wait onos is always w/ his team durp
are in no way, shape, or form, constructive and contribute to the thread in a positive manner whatsoever? It's intimidating enough to post your opinions on changes that are being proposed by premier/div1 teams. Posts like these are discouraging any future opinions from being posted when you're acting like an ass.
I'll echo what ball2hi (3yebex) said at the end there. I'm finding posts such as Gibs' and many of Locklear's to be counter to the goal of obtaining feedback and discussion. It's disrespectful and stifles conversation. This mod is supposed to be improving the game to help the community survive, so people's comments on the changes should be more valued.
Fade damage is less than in the current balance mod, while structures have armor. So a pack of aliens will kill structures even slower.
I'd like to see some theorycrafting on numbers for this one. I still don't feel Fades should ever be able to do substantial damage to structures.
You don't need to theorycraft it, you can check it out here.
In the current iteration of the Compmod, fades do 37.5 damage to structures. In the new mod, you'll see 21 damage, 7 to health and 7 to armor (armor is worth 2 health). Some additional information - armor is cleared on structures at the following percentage: extractor - 30%, phase gate - 50%, observatory - 16%. These percentages should probably change via armor value adjustment, I'd like to see them all at ~30%.
Congrats, you killed an overcommitted fade and an unsupported onos that should've just left. Lifeforms that play like that should die.
The Onos should've destroyed me though. I guess I can agree though that the movement change should make gores easier. I still don't see a viable reason as to why to reduce gore damage besides "Marines not having armor and getting lawnmowered.". Marines don't have armor, that's a mechanic that is exploited by the aliens. Should we be upset that Lerks spike down marine armor and Fades can 1 - 2 shot that unarmored marine?
I'm willing to test this mod out, but I think a few people didn't agree to more than tweaks in numbers for changes with this balance mod.
No, we shouldn't be upset. It's clearly a case of lerks and fades using teamwork to deal damage within a window of time to kill marines. I certainly won't be upset to see a marine stripped of their armor, shot by a single spike, then one shot by an onos. The thing I don't like is having to compromise positioning in an engagement with an onos in order to weld. Could this change be a mistake? Possibly, but we can only really know through testing.
Lol subtle bragging about solo'ing an Onos that made a huge mistake and trying to argue balance about it.
I don't understand.
Yes, thank you Locklear. Thank you for your well thought out, constructed, and civil post that is contributing to this thread. If me linking to my videos offends you, then please find another video I can link where a marine solos an Onos in competitive play because I haven't been here long enough to know of any instances.
I would agree that Locklear's comment is fairly bad-mannered, but I would also agree that the video is a terrible example to base an argument upon.
ye fiskbit i agree u should totally always have armor when about 2 fite onos o wait onos is always w/ his team durp
are in no way, shape, or form, constructive and contribute to the thread in a positive manner whatsoever? It's intimidating enough to post your opinions on changes that are being proposed by premier/div1 teams. Posts like these are discouraging any future opinions from being posted when you're acting like an ass.
I realize that posting opinions contrary to the beliefs of others can be a hard thing, and I thank you for giving us your thoughts. I hope everyone can keep in mind that we asked people for their opinions, and anyone that presents us with an opinion backed by somewhat thoughtful reasoning should be treated and responded to with respect. Anyone that comes in with baseless and gutless arguments? Troll to your heart's content.
My B. I guess I was working on a ton of projects right around the time of the scrims. Mind was in a different place. I probably just assumed that since lock had to keep telling me to evolve at 35. Forgot they started at 15 now. X_X
@ball2hi OK, so why are you arguing about hive 3 abilities being too strong in a balance mod that is meant for competitive ns2? Hive 3 is supposed to be a game ender. If you've gotten to the point where you can contaminate and your Skulks can xenocide, the game is pretty much over already...
As for webs being too spammable at 0 pres, why shouldn't they be spammable? You don't want to promote players to sit on hive 3 upgrades for a long time. Rather, you want the players to end the game with their hive 3 upgrades. If webs could only be used defensively, then you'd have even more games with aliens turtling on 3 hives for 10 minutes when they could have just finished the game.
Yes, thank you Locklear. Thank you for your well thought out, constructed, and civil post that is contributing to this thread.
I realize my post comes across as bm and I did read the book: how to win friends and influence people. I know people respond poorly to "No, you're wrong and bad" yet I did not mean to completely discourage you from giving feedback. That was not my intention.
Gore does 200 structural damage, it will hit players for 100 damage. Charge has not had a damage modifier on it for some time.
ok. I wonder if the bastards sneaked this one in since I have habit of reading the changelogs. Could have missed it as well.
Now that I think of the meaning of 100dmg it is basically the only thing aliens have to really overcome medspamming. This would make this 60-78pres lifeform more aware of attacking single lmg marines if the commander decides to keep that marine alive threat being 2-3 more will pop-up soon. Onos clearly not being my main class no real idea if I like or hate this.
That being said, I still liked the charge attack combo more.
My comments are two things. First, Grenades from Grenade Launchers should glow. I saw a lot more use from the weapon in the GIBS server I was playing on, and earlier. Getting oneshot from someone spamming around the corners due to Grenades being hard to see on the ground, meh. I do get how this mod is for comp 6v6 play, but this suggestion is mostly for 8-9 player pubs.
The second is the Onos. I agree with making them be less of a tank, but I really felt the pain. Before with the Onos being super floaty, it was at least possible to keep decent speed up with Charge. Now that the Onos has good acceleration, it lost the floaty of before. Obviously a good idea, but it was hard in the game. Charge energy cost felt like a large amount, and I could barely get anything out of it. It wouldn't have been a big deal, but the Marine team was constantly getting medkits and I was having issues killing anyone due to the 90 damage.
What I mean to say in the end of this, I feel like a .5 m/s movement speed boost or decreasing Charge energy down by 4 or so a second will make the Onos more action packed.
I could be wrong since it was a pub and not a real comp game, but that is what I feel at least on the more pub side of this mod.
First, Grenades from Grenade Launchers should glow. I saw a lot more use from the weapon in the GIBS server I was playing on, and earlier. Getting oneshot from someone spamming around the corners due to Grenades being hard to see on the ground, meh. I do get how this mod is for comp 6v6 play, but this suggestion is mostly for 8-9 player pubs.
The balance mod doesn't touch grenade launchers at all. Are you just making this as a suggestion?
By 8-9 I'm assuming you mean 8v8 or 9v9.
It wouldn't have been a big deal, but the Marine team was constantly getting medkits and I was having issues killing anyone due to the 90 damage.
Keep in mind that they did have armor 2, and you were having to solo a lot of those Marines. You were able to hold the line by yourself for quite a long time, against 4-8 Marines at a time. I think being able to keep a Hive defended is good enough for the Onos to be able to do alone. If you would have been able to simply run straight into their group and pick three or four guys off, then run back, heal, repeat, then I think that'd be a little unfair. At armor 2 if you land 5 consecutive gores, you can kill a Marine who is being medded. So you can still pick off at least one by yourself.
EDIT: Sorry for double post. Meant to add this to my previous one.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I'm pretty sure that the only argument against fades doing full structure damage is that it causes everyone to save for fade.
This doesn't say anything about fades being using in the desired 0-1 gorge 1-2 lerk 1-2 fade 1-2 onos meta.
And hive 3 aliens should win 99% automatically. It's not easy to get 3 hives. At all. So It's 3 hives + time to get upgrades/biomass, which is time for marines to take down the hive. If they can research webs, they should be free. It doesn't cost other lifeforms res to do stuff? What if blink costs 0.05 res per blink. That'd be wrong
The balance mod doesn't touch grenade launchers at all. Are you just making this as a suggestion?
By 8-9 I'm assuming you mean 8v8 or 9v9.
Well it makes AA 10 res cheaper, so it vaguely does. But yes, I would be willing to just say that as a suggestion. Also yes, I mean 8v8 to 9v9 play. The biggest reason that this is a pub suggestion is that 6v6 play, you should always know where the grenades are anyways due to being less players and more obvious to keep track of the nades. Only in larger player counts does it become hard to track the nades and then it gets dumb getting oneshot.
Keep in mind that they did have armor 2, and you were having to solo a lot of those Marines. You were able to hold the line by yourself for quite a long time, against 4-8 Marines at a time. I think being able to keep a Hive defended is good enough for the Onos to be able to do alone. If you would have been able to simply run straight into their group and pick three or four guys off, then run back, heal, repeat, then I think that'd be a little unfair. At armor 2 if you land 5 consecutive gores, you can kill a Marine who is being medded. So you can still pick off at least one by yourself.
I know that situation was a massively skewed to what normally happens, but what I did was the best case. The Marines should have killed me within a minute, as they had a large enough pack that even if I ran to hive, I would be dead. They played too passively in that case, and I don't think that should be counted as a plus for the Onos.
The problem is that while I felt the better acceleration, it didn't really do anything helpful in that case. I lost speed faster after my charge due to friction, and I left faster due to acceleration. Due to that, and the fact that the Onos is huge, my overall time from Hive healing to attacking a Marine to backing to the Hive, it seemed to be the same. 6v6 it might play better, but I would be surprised if was really noticeable. What is noticeable is the loss of damage.
In that situation, I would want to be the old Onos. In fact, I feel like I would always want to be the old Onos just for the damage since I don't feel like the new movement is all that better. I could be completely wrong, but that is how it felt.
Yes, I am ignoring the nerf on the the Bone Wall Shield whatever since I agree with the change.
Five consecutive hits when a marine is dodging and using props isn't necessarily an easy task, and if you add to that a catpack, that's really terrifying.
I was playing with the balance mod today and didn't like that you can't jump with a jetpack on unless you have no fuel. This makes typical crouch jumps a little awkward and makes climbing things with low jetpack fuel (like the boxes in Platform on Biodome) very cumbersome, since you have to either wait for enough fuel to fly to your destination or waste fuel so you can make each jump. If jetpacks activated maybe a quarter of a second or so after the jump starts, that would allow someone to tap the spacebar for a normal jump or hold it for jetpack movement.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
*Regen too powerful on lerk and fade
*Metab heal too powerful, especially in conjunction with regen.
*Crags, whips, shifts and shades too cheap still, especially since everything else is dead cheap now.
*Res still spammy and placement is thoughtless -> too cheap
*Why do we still need powernodes ? pointless gameplay
*Gliding lerk cannot be heard, give it the shitty woosh sound you can hear in first person which might make phantom useful.
Sometimes i think to myself, This is not NS1 and the same factors do not work with the maps for NS2. Be fucking creative and stop being ns1 followers and think or something new. moreso, give australians (mf & baka & Grissi) the rights to edit this game and it would be perfect any one else is a fucking idiot & should not be listened to & i'm sorry but titus(rantologoy) should not be listened to.
Honestly, have these balance tester think that maybe the maps are the issue. You're trying to balance the game around maps that don't work?
Alot of oldschool ns1 vets from aus have turned there back on this game.
I'm surprised any of these testers have not asked for any australian input, From all the suggestion i've seen a few high profile players in australia have the best solutions to this game. While you think we are unable to compete on a international standard. I can tell you right now given a chance to lan on the same ping i would be surprised if we didn't come out on top.
Marine would need 3 medpacks to survive 4 gores from an Onos at A2.
Given the current pickup delay and gore ROF that is possible, but would require quite precise medpacking.
Didnt realize that Grissi is Australian, and that he didnt have priority input on this, or that anyone was being excluded... Not wise to make comments when you only have a very small understanding..
Beyond that, you have to realize there is a limit to what can be changed. Change to much, and your just going to needlessly frustrate/drive away existing players, especially when you start dragging in mostly meaningless changes. There is also a real issue of complexity, and how we should be striving to simplify gameplay.
Yeah! .. give 'em the rights m8. Let's talk about how well you'd do on LAN.. that's totally relevant to the balance mod.
Please, have a little faith in the current balance team.. it includes Grissi (not an Australian but someone who you requested) and several other bright and intelligent people. Insulting them and calling them idiots is quite comical. If you want to be listened to at least give them the respect they deserve.
EDIT:
Just rofl @ you coming in and complaining about the NSL not picking the people you want to do the balance mod.
I'm sure it would be a perfect game if the people that Nezza wants were the ones in charge...
Where is the post saying that we think you can't perform at an international standard? I don't see it.
Probably the most ridiculous post I've ever read on these forums.
And I for one have had zero to do with any of the balance changes.. just my personal opinion on your post.
give australians (mf & baka & Grissi) the rights to edit this game and it would be perfect any one else is a **** idiot
ZeframJoin Date: 2004-05-11Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
edited April 2014
If you want, both of you can continue this over Steam or the forum PM. Please leave this thread for actual feedback. Your friendly NSL admin and forum mod.
Five consecutive hits when a marine is dodging and using props isn't necessarily an easy task, and if you add to that a catpack, that's really terrifying.
No, it's five consecutive hits when a marine is constantly receiving medpacks. It is also much easier to land gores on marines with the onos movement changes.
and makes climbing things with low jetpack fuel (like the boxes in Platform on Biodome) very cumbersome, since you have to either wait for enough fuel to fly to your destination or waste fuel so you can make each jump.
Comments
You realize this mod is for competitive ns2, right?
I'm willing to test this mod out, but I think a few people didn't agree to more than tweaks in numbers for changes with this balance mod.
Yes, thank you Locklear. Thank you for your well thought out, constructed, and civil post that is contributing to this thread. If me linking to my videos offends you, then please find another video I can link where a marine solos an Onos in competitive play because I haven't been here long enough to know of any instances.
You realize that posts like these... are in no way, shape, or form, constructive and contribute to the thread in a positive manner whatsoever? It's intimidating enough to post your opinions on changes that are being proposed by premier/div1 teams. Posts like these are discouraging any future opinions from being posted when you're acting like an ass.
That Onos died because he stayed in way too long. All you did was fire your gun in the general direction of the gigantic bus.
You don't need to theorycraft it, you can check it out here.
In the current iteration of the Compmod, fades do 37.5 damage to structures. In the new mod, you'll see 21 damage, 7 to health and 7 to armor (armor is worth 2 health). Some additional information - armor is cleared on structures at the following percentage: extractor - 30%, phase gate - 50%, observatory - 16%. These percentages should probably change via armor value adjustment, I'd like to see them all at ~30%.
No, we shouldn't be upset. It's clearly a case of lerks and fades using teamwork to deal damage within a window of time to kill marines. I certainly won't be upset to see a marine stripped of their armor, shot by a single spike, then one shot by an onos. The thing I don't like is having to compromise positioning in an engagement with an onos in order to weld. Could this change be a mistake? Possibly, but we can only really know through testing.
I would agree that Locklear's comment is fairly bad-mannered, but I would also agree that the video is a terrible example to base an argument upon.
I realize that posting opinions contrary to the beliefs of others can be a hard thing, and I thank you for giving us your thoughts. I hope everyone can keep in mind that we asked people for their opinions, and anyone that presents us with an opinion backed by somewhat thoughtful reasoning should be treated and responded to with respect. Anyone that comes in with baseless and gutless arguments? Troll to your heart's content.
My B. I guess I was working on a ton of projects right around the time of the scrims. Mind was in a different place. I probably just assumed that since lock had to keep telling me to evolve at 35. Forgot they started at 15 now. X_X
As for webs being too spammable at 0 pres, why shouldn't they be spammable? You don't want to promote players to sit on hive 3 upgrades for a long time. Rather, you want the players to end the game with their hive 3 upgrades. If webs could only be used defensively, then you'd have even more games with aliens turtling on 3 hives for 10 minutes when they could have just finished the game.
I realize my post comes across as bm and I did read the book: how to win friends and influence people. I know people respond poorly to "No, you're wrong and bad" yet I did not mean to completely discourage you from giving feedback. That was not my intention.
So I apologize for that.
ok. I wonder if the bastards sneaked this one in since I have habit of reading the changelogs. Could have missed it as well.
Now that I think of the meaning of 100dmg it is basically the only thing aliens have to really overcome medspamming. This would make this 60-78pres lifeform more aware of attacking single lmg marines if the commander decides to keep that marine alive threat being 2-3 more will pop-up soon. Onos clearly not being my main class no real idea if I like or hate this.
That being said, I still liked the charge attack combo more.
My comments are two things. First, Grenades from Grenade Launchers should glow. I saw a lot more use from the weapon in the GIBS server I was playing on, and earlier. Getting oneshot from someone spamming around the corners due to Grenades being hard to see on the ground, meh. I do get how this mod is for comp 6v6 play, but this suggestion is mostly for 8-9 player pubs.
The second is the Onos. I agree with making them be less of a tank, but I really felt the pain. Before with the Onos being super floaty, it was at least possible to keep decent speed up with Charge. Now that the Onos has good acceleration, it lost the floaty of before. Obviously a good idea, but it was hard in the game. Charge energy cost felt like a large amount, and I could barely get anything out of it. It wouldn't have been a big deal, but the Marine team was constantly getting medkits and I was having issues killing anyone due to the 90 damage.
What I mean to say in the end of this, I feel like a .5 m/s movement speed boost or decreasing Charge energy down by 4 or so a second will make the Onos more action packed.
I could be wrong since it was a pub and not a real comp game, but that is what I feel at least on the more pub side of this mod.
The balance mod doesn't touch grenade launchers at all. Are you just making this as a suggestion?
By 8-9 I'm assuming you mean 8v8 or 9v9.
Keep in mind that they did have armor 2, and you were having to solo a lot of those Marines. You were able to hold the line by yourself for quite a long time, against 4-8 Marines at a time. I think being able to keep a Hive defended is good enough for the Onos to be able to do alone. If you would have been able to simply run straight into their group and pick three or four guys off, then run back, heal, repeat, then I think that'd be a little unfair. At armor 2 if you land 5 consecutive gores, you can kill a Marine who is being medded. So you can still pick off at least one by yourself.
EDIT: Sorry for double post. Meant to add this to my previous one.
This doesn't say anything about fades being using in the desired 0-1 gorge 1-2 lerk 1-2 fade 1-2 onos meta.
And hive 3 aliens should win 99% automatically. It's not easy to get 3 hives. At all. So It's 3 hives + time to get upgrades/biomass, which is time for marines to take down the hive. If they can research webs, they should be free. It doesn't cost other lifeforms res to do stuff? What if blink costs 0.05 res per blink. That'd be wrong
Well it makes AA 10 res cheaper, so it vaguely does. But yes, I would be willing to just say that as a suggestion. Also yes, I mean 8v8 to 9v9 play. The biggest reason that this is a pub suggestion is that 6v6 play, you should always know where the grenades are anyways due to being less players and more obvious to keep track of the nades. Only in larger player counts does it become hard to track the nades and then it gets dumb getting oneshot.
I know that situation was a massively skewed to what normally happens, but what I did was the best case. The Marines should have killed me within a minute, as they had a large enough pack that even if I ran to hive, I would be dead. They played too passively in that case, and I don't think that should be counted as a plus for the Onos.
The problem is that while I felt the better acceleration, it didn't really do anything helpful in that case. I lost speed faster after my charge due to friction, and I left faster due to acceleration. Due to that, and the fact that the Onos is huge, my overall time from Hive healing to attacking a Marine to backing to the Hive, it seemed to be the same. 6v6 it might play better, but I would be surprised if was really noticeable. What is noticeable is the loss of damage.
In that situation, I would want to be the old Onos. In fact, I feel like I would always want to be the old Onos just for the damage since I don't feel like the new movement is all that better. I could be completely wrong, but that is how it felt.
Yes, I am ignoring the nerf on the the Bone Wall Shield whatever since I agree with the change.
I was playing with the balance mod today and didn't like that you can't jump with a jetpack on unless you have no fuel. This makes typical crouch jumps a little awkward and makes climbing things with low jetpack fuel (like the boxes in Platform on Biodome) very cumbersome, since you have to either wait for enough fuel to fly to your destination or waste fuel so you can make each jump. If jetpacks activated maybe a quarter of a second or so after the jump starts, that would allow someone to tap the spacebar for a normal jump or hold it for jetpack movement.
*Metab heal too powerful, especially in conjunction with regen.
*Crags, whips, shifts and shades too cheap still, especially since everything else is dead cheap now.
*Res still spammy and placement is thoughtless -> too cheap
*Why do we still need powernodes ? pointless gameplay
*Gliding lerk cannot be heard, give it the shitty woosh sound you can hear in first person which might make phantom useful.
+1 agree with scatter.
Honestly, have these balance tester think that maybe the maps are the issue. You're trying to balance the game around maps that don't work?
Alot of oldschool ns1 vets from aus have turned there back on this game.
I'm surprised any of these testers have not asked for any australian input, From all the suggestion i've seen a few high profile players in australia have the best solutions to this game. While you think we are unable to compete on a international standard. I can tell you right now given a chance to lan on the same ping i would be surprised if we didn't come out on top.
Given the current pickup delay and gore ROF that is possible, but would require quite precise medpacking.
Didnt realize that Grissi is Australian, and that he didnt have priority input on this, or that anyone was being excluded... Not wise to make comments when you only have a very small understanding..
Beyond that, you have to realize there is a limit to what can be changed. Change to much, and your just going to needlessly frustrate/drive away existing players, especially when you start dragging in mostly meaningless changes. There is also a real issue of complexity, and how we should be striving to simplify gameplay.
Please, have a little faith in the current balance team.. it includes Grissi (not an Australian but someone who you requested) and several other bright and intelligent people. Insulting them and calling them idiots is quite comical. If you want to be listened to at least give them the respect they deserve.
EDIT:
Just rofl @ you coming in and complaining about the NSL not picking the people you want to do the balance mod.
I'm sure it would be a perfect game if the people that Nezza wants were the ones in charge...
Where is the post saying that we think you can't perform at an international standard? I don't see it.
Probably the most ridiculous post I've ever read on these forums.
And I for one have had zero to do with any of the balance changes.. just my personal opinion on your post.
Just.. what?
You're derailing the thread and talking about things you know little about.
At the very least if you're going to give input talk about something actually related to balance.
That is only if the marine picks up every single medpack he is given.
No, it's five consecutive hits when a marine is constantly receiving medpacks. It is also much easier to land gores on marines with the onos movement changes.
Fuel management is real.
Mod edit - Nezz, if you can't be nice, don't post. Go elsewhere. This thread is for feedback for the balance mod, not for you to have a tantrum -Decoy