competitive vs public balance

clankill3rclankill3r Join Date: 2007-09-03 Member: 62145Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
NS2 is a really hard game to balance.
Aliens win around 54% of the games atm which seems quite balanced.

However in the world championship the game seems quite off balance when it comes to pro players.
Marines seem to win about almost everything.

I really hope that in WC2015 ns2 is more balanced for competitive play without hurting public play to much (having 2 versions seems like a bad idea).

Does anyone know the current changelog of the balancemod? I'm quite interested in it.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130391092

Anyway, i wondered if people here had ideas of how to make aliens stronger / marines weaker without affecting it public play to much?

And do people think servers are to big in public play? I know 6 vs 6 is not good in public play since people are coming / leaving all the time. But there are a lot of big servers. The good thing is it averages good players out so they don't have to much impact. But it also makes gorge rushes extremely deadfull.
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Comments

  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    It wasn't so much the difference between comp and pub that caused marines to win so much at the world cup but rather the difference between playing online matches with latency, where marines are bound to miss a lot of bullets and take longer to react to surprise attacks by aliens, and the LAN-environment of the world cup with 0 ping.

    I am curious if we will ever see netcode variables like tick rate exposed so that server owners can modify them themselves. And if that will actually make a difference.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2014
    That was a combination of LAN marines not missing shots from interp and overall bad alien play. Off-LAN, the competitive game is quite balanced as well.

    NS2WC:
    Snails alien rounds were probably the closest thing to how alien games are played off-lan even though I felt their play was different as well. I do know that we (Titus) played our alien rounds like shit for whatever reason.
    *shrug*

    As for gamebalance... there are some changes coming in the near future. Go find the other thread that was hinting at it.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231887610 is the 'new' balance mod afaik, something went wrong with the old mod ID i think.

    As for changes, that's really a mixed bag IMO.. While numerical 'balance' may not seem that far off, many parts of the game are still quite imbalanced... The problem with those imbalances is that they are consequences of lower level issues, and as such are probably beyond the realm of changes at this point. There are changes that can be made within the current game structure however which could resolve some of the ping/skill discrepancies.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2014
    uber fire breathing oni, with "lasssers". Freakin' lasers.
  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    edited March 2014
    I think taking the ns2wc marine wins to seriously is really incorrect. I felt snails could've taken the finals 4-0 vs titus if a few variables changed. This is only a wild guess thou after watching there games 3-4 times.

    The game is really quite balanced, The ping is a huge factor. Titus, who are great shots became a lot better & snails were regularly winning 1 v 3, 2 v 4. Which probably doesn't happen that much online with the ping variation, server performance.

    Given the 4 teams a week to play on lan, I think the win rate of aliens & marines would seriously balance out. It's to hard to judge from 1 event.
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    In the more recent patches to NS2 aliens have been nerfed into the ground, the fade was drastically slowed down, alien acceleration in general was made slower than marines, and combine that with the neccasarry hitreg improvements and you have a very nasty situation for aliens.

    I kept insisting aliens be nerfed by buffing marine economy or nerfing alien economy, not fucking up the combat dynamic we had. It was a bit more fun, aliens had a higher skill ceiling and so did marines due to more tracking difficulty.
  • rayzourayzou Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184066Members, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'd go for a pro mod.

    Suggestion already made but idea already excluded from UWE.

    Since the balance will never be effective on both sides, i don't really understand this.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2014
    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231887610
    List of changes found by Scatter

    Biomass 1 cost reduction from 20 to 15 res
    Biomass research times +20 seconds
    Harvest cost increased from 8 to 10 res
    Shells, spurs and veils reduced in cost from 20 to 15 res
    Reductions in Lifeform research times and res cost accross the board
    Hive type upgrade (crag, shell, shift) reduced from 10 to 5 res
    Added Evolution chamber which hosts the life form upgrades
    Approximate doubling of health life forms get per biomass
    Significant reduction in Whip armor from 175 to 20, increased health from 650 to 750
    Added "Mutator" which grants each team member 1 pres for 15 tres

    Hives now only go up to biomass 2
    Abilities moved to different biomass requirements:
    1) babblers, SS
    2) bile, Charge
    3) leap, umbra
    4) Vortex, boneshield
    5) web, spores
    6) xeno, stab stomp
    Did someone try this out? What does "Added Evolution chamber which hosts the life form upgrades" exactly mean?
    - 3x veils, shells, spurs => 9x Evolution chamber
    - 3x veils, shells, spurs => 3x Evolution chamber
    - 3x veils, shells, spurs => 1x Evolution chamber
    - Something else
    What is it?
  • philoglphilogl Join Date: 2012-10-24 Member: 163529Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=231887610
    List of changes found by Scatter

    Biomass 1 cost reduction from 20 to 15 res
    Biomass research times +20 seconds
    Harvest cost increased from 8 to 10 res
    Shells, spurs and veils reduced in cost from 20 to 15 res
    Reductions in Lifeform research times and res cost accross the board
    Hive type upgrade (crag, shell, shift) reduced from 10 to 5 res
    Added Evolution chamber which hosts the life form upgrades
    Approximate doubling of health life forms get per biomass
    Significant reduction in Whip armor from 175 to 20, increased health from 650 to 750
    Added "Mutator" which grants each team member 1 pres for 15 tres

    Hives now only go up to biomass 2
    Abilities moved to different biomass requirements:
    1) babblers, SS
    2) bile, Charge
    3) leap, umbra
    4) Vortex, boneshield
    5) web, spores
    6) xeno, stab stomp
    Did someone try this out? What does "Added Evolution chamber which hosts the life form upgrades" exactly mean?
    - 3x veils, shells, spurs => 9x Evolution chamber
    - 3x veils, shells, spurs => 3x Evolution chamber
    - 3x veils, shells, spurs => 1x Evolution chamber
    - Something else
    What is it?

    As far as I know it's just moved the gorge/skulk/fade/onos/lerk upgrade onto one structure instead of having it on the whip crag etc
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'm actually more than OK with upgrade research being done on its own structure (yay alien arms lab!).

    Of course, I liked the idea of Biomass unlocking things automatically, but I guess there was cost issues (too cheap?) It just felt much more organic than clicking on an unrelated support structure to upgrade your units.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Oooh does that mean there's some new alien art assets? (I wanna see what the evolution chamber looks like!)
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2014
    For anybody curious, I just checked it out.

    Here's what it looks like (I assume it's a temporary look until they get something new made)
    f7bcc4d67bf861597145f02fde7735.jpg

    And the "mutator" is just a drifter that is killed as soon as it is born, giving each player 1 pres.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    And the "mutator" is just a drifter that is killed as soon as it is born, giving each player 1 pres.

    Pls no. I do not like seeing 4 min fades.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2014
    Can the Evolution chamber "walk" or would it need to be echoed in case of emergency? How much does the chamber cost?

    @CCTEE Ugh that living turd thingy cries to be killed. I guess its some llama type sitting around?
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    While I agree with Joshhh that Tres to Pres Conversions could (and i think have) caused imabalance in the early game, i do think that something like this is neccecary due to all alien tech being tied to their lifeforms.

    Maybe the cost of Tres eggs should come down, and the biomass levels adjusted to only have lifeform eggs available AFTER they would naturally be available under average conditions (3-4 harvesters).

    In order to make this work, perhaps the effectiveness of support structures and cost of upgrades should be adjsuted to make it impossible to just spam lifeforms (killing a fade should still feel like a big win)
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @_INTER_ I actually googled it with the term 'turd'. It's an Alpaca i believe.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    I mean, there's nothing in this game I'd rather see than the ineffectiveness of all static defenses. And I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of having separate balancing on some levels.

    Things like bone wall and cyst explosions feel like they add so much to a battle in a meaningful, enjoyable, sometimes just the right amount of annoying way to a marine.

    But whips are just plain boring, as are turrets. Very unnecessary parts of this game that I think should be remedied by empowering player and commander active abilities and power instead. I also think that this would bring a closer balance between public and competitive balance.

    I mean, why do we need a whip defending an rt if our regen upgrade wasn't so shitty. It's why fades aren't as effective early game as they should be versus decent marines, because the marines aren't as forced to burst down lifeforms like they could be.

    Turrets do way too much damage versus lifeforms whose health has been downgraded to compensate for pvp concerns.

    What if a commander could just spawn a whip temporarily instead of keeping them. Why is everything so reliant on infestation, why isn't it more of a choice?

    Such a boring game this can be
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    joshhh wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    And the "mutator" is just a drifter that is killed as soon as it is born, giving each player 1 pres.

    Pls no. I do not like seeing 4 min fades.

    Each one costs 15 tres. If you can afford to do a lot of these, the other team won't have much hope anyways.

    I would assume this is mainly to help aliens in the very late game stages, where marines have all their upgrades and start that slow-but-sure grind to victory.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Which race wins more often is too general of a way to balance.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    joshhh wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    And the "mutator" is just a drifter that is killed as soon as it is born, giving each player 1 pres.

    Pls no. I do not like seeing 4 min fades.

    Each one costs 15 tres. If you can afford to do a lot of these, the other team won't have much hope anyways.

    I would assume this is mainly to help aliens in the very late game stages, where marines have all their upgrades and start that slow-but-sure grind to victory.

    Idk... historically speaking nothing has justified or been as strong as life form timings..

    Remember the initial impact of lower cost lifeforms? The assumption was that you wouldn't go X lifeform without Y upgrade... that turned out to be incorrect because of what X lifeform could still accomplish. (not really surprising, given that the lifeforms were designed to be viable without upgrades from the beginning..)
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2014
    I don't think that was the intention of lower lifeform costs actually, it was more a result of lowering both the starting pres and the pres income rate. The upgrade costs were also designed to help (albeit very little) with the lifeform tech explosions.

    Lifeform timings now are really not all that much different from pre B250 (at similar RT counts).

    Comp vs pub balance is actually a relatively easy problem to fix, in a general sense. The more complicated issue is the varying playercount, and the impacts that has on every single facet of the game.
  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    if your thinking about mutator again, make it 2nd hive ability or something... Don't need earlier lifeforms. just need to be able to replace lost lifeforms at some point if marines let game go long enough.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @xDragon‌
    Oh, I wasn't saying that was the intention of that..(iirc it was for consideration of "fun" gameplay by playing more higher lifeforms in a round.) But the cost of the lifeforms were also justified and balanced at one point - in part - by the costs of the upgrades. Which were definitely intended for disrupting tech explosions.

    I was just expressing concern over any justification for earlier lifeform timings.. historically speaking its seemed that no matter what, its always been worth whatever downside. (4 min onos comes to mind as just one example of this)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Slightly off topic... but how would he mutator work with say a team of eight or more and one or more people have 100 res. Would it be like normal and go to the rest of the players?

    I am thinking from pub experience where there always seems to be that one guy with 100 res.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited March 2014
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    For anybody curious, I just checked it out.

    Here's what it looks like (I assume it's a temporary look until they get something new made)
    f7bcc4d67bf861597145f02fde7735.jpg

    And the "mutator" is just a drifter that is killed as soon as it is born, giving each player 1 pres.


    That thing was around a few months ago already in the old Balance mod.

    I assume that making new assets is anything but trivial, so a completely new structure needs to prove its necessity first in plenty of playtesting before you would even consider to assign an artist to that job.


    And I think the cost reduction for upgrade chambers from 20 to 15 would be offset by a slight health reduction, to make them easier to snipe. That would give lone marines actually a little more reason to venture into an alien base in order to do some economic damage, similar to how lone aliens can pretty successfully cause disturbance in marine bases in just a few seconds if left unchecked.


    Overall the trend seems to be that aliens require less tRes (which makes sense, since they were always intended to be more reliant on pRes).
    Though it raises the question what aliens are going to do with that additional tRes. Nowadays I often find myself with plenty of spare res as comm (unless the game is progressing so well that I get Hives up in no time and are basically just waiting for the res to flow in in order to get all the upgrades and the team can end the game). If there will be even more spare res, then we might see even more lifeform eggs and more structure spam.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    What if, instead of a simple button press for Tres to Pres conversion, the alien Kahmm could "convert" individual harvesters to generate double Pres, and no Tres?

    A bit more elegant than simple Tres to Pres Conversion since it would be an obvious and up front trade off between expanding/tech and generating more lifeforms.

    Since the norm is that Marines need more RTs that Aliens, this lets aliens specialize their their smaller number of RTs to generate more of what they need, and less of what they don't.

    No more spamming whips cause there is nothing else more useful to spend it on, cause all those Extractors are given over to prodcing Pres for your team! Yay more decisions for Kahmm!
  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    edited March 2014
    Benson, that's how the old one worked kind of, we saw 4 min fades, 8 min onos. 4 min Exo trains haha... I remember playing a nxzl pug back then when it was added to bt mod. I instantly quit the game and that was the beginning of me taking a 3 month break
  • jackson7jackson7 France Join Date: 2013-10-05 Member: 188594Members
    CCTEE wrote: »
    @_INTER_ I actually googled it with the term 'turd'. It's an Alpaca i believe.

    It's a "llamaggot" ("Lamasticot" in French)
    ;)

    mattji104 wrote: »
    Things like bone wall and cyst explosions feel like they add so much to a battle in a meaningful, enjoyable, sometimes just the right amount of annoying way to a marine.

    But whips are just plain boring, as are turrets. Very unnecessary parts of this game that I think should be remedied by empowering player and commander active abilities and power instead. I also think that this would bring a closer balance between public and competitive balance.

    I agree. Bone Wall at 2 Biomass, cheaper Drifters (5 TRes?) old Nanoshield back, easier Cyst Explosion, CatPacks at 2 Tres, cheaper alien upgrades ... The Evolution Chamber sounds good to me too.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    nezz wrote: »
    Benson, that's how the old one worked kind of, we saw 4 min fades, 8 min onos. 4 min Exo trains haha... I remember playing a nxzl pug back then when it was added to bt mod. I instantly quit the game and that was the beginning of me taking a 3 month break

    I thought the old one was push a button to buy Pres for your team when you had free Tres?

    The Idea was to remove the Tres from the Kahmm completly so its not just a "well, I have spare Tres, so might as well give all my money to my team" scenario. It would be more like Kahmming on one RT, while your team gets twice the benefit from the other two.

    IDK, it might be horrible. But if the kahmm couldn't afford upgrades/lifeform research/new hives (due to him only getting Tres from a smaller pool of RTs), it might balance out.

    Maybe shutdown all resourse generation for 20-30 sec while "switching" resource generation type to balance it out?
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