Erm, I noticed that the site you have shown uses the kingkahuna games server quite alot, which may have a different community than the servers I play in. Also, long games will show there less often since the long time means less frequency, but still the different community's might be it.
What is the average length of an NS2 game in your experience?
Just had a god awful 70 min round on 24slot server last night with just horrendous players on both sides with 3hives against 3/3/jp/exo marines for more than half of it, and i sure as hell couldve more than halved of that time if my fade would at least at some point do normal damage to structures. Was so beat i couldnt play ns2 after it, yet when the round ended all the scrubs went "WOW GOOD GAME GUYS". >_<
I am having trouble of understanding what you said. Can you restate that?
"Oh no Jimmy was marked, everyone surround him with shotguns."
Imagine with FF on......
Seriously though. Vortex worked out very well as a CC ability. Since we dont know exactly why it was changed:
If it was to strong (big AoE, effectivly shutting down Exos and their welders)
- Make vortex affect the next basic attack, and only remove one player/object instead of the group
If it was too weak (marines could reposition and reload when vortex'd)
- Prevent reload/use and keep large AoE
- Reduce CC to one unit (see above) and do not allow CC'd unit to move or reload
and replace Stab with metabolize** (again, metabolize works better with fade's playstyle than a slow attack)
(** or remove movement penalty/attack wind up)
I'm sorry to say that's just not believable, but it is understandable why you might think that. Longer games go for longer, so you might think you play more of them.
Basically with a body of statistical data as comprehensive as ns2stats, it's impossible to believe that someone could experience NS2 in so drastically a different way to the rest of the community.
I'm usually pretty willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but this is not a situation where individual experience is a strong variable. 15 mins is the average. iirc earlier in this thread you said you had played 150+ hours which is at least 300 games by your average. To have that many games that were so statistically abnormal is just unbelievable.
This does give some insight as to why you think there are problems with the fade. If fades arrive on the battlefield between 6 and 8 minutes, your perception is that fades are in play for ~80% of the duration of a match whereas they're 'normally' in play for about 50% of the duration of a match.
Like I said Khyron, different servers tend to have different community's (such as regulars and admins for that server) and that can cause differences in game length. The servers I generally play in are majorly rookie-friendly (so I can help rookies and because they're a bit more friendly), but I still go to a lot of non-rookie servers.
"Oh no Jimmy was marked, everyone surround him with shotguns."
"Heh heh, im totally gonna get this mari-, OH WHAT THE HELL"
Maybe marines shouldn't see mark but fade has 5-10 seconds to use on marine he last hit (or another way to mark them) so they may suspect an oncoming fade. If this were to be implemented it shouldn't give marine team a huge sign that shows this dude is marked. Should be more subtle. I agree that a CC ability would be good but maybe more of a hindrance so it fits fade role.
Like many people, I wasn't accustomed to the vortex/stab play. So I hated, boycotted, whined about it.
Now? I have adapted to it's uses and can incorporate it into the fade playstyle. Now I don't complain about it.
Why not? Try this. Marines with weapons3 and shotguns almost killing you? Vortex in adjacent room/blink in/start stab animation/shadowstep to compensate for marine dodge. Minimal/moderate dmg taken. Rinse and repeat. Have veils? Aura. Rack up kills and never die again at the cost of a couple extra APM.
In my opinion, I believe vortex and stab is one of the few things that help to deal with 24+ servers. Where late game is just a wall of lvl3 bullets and grenades.
My only issue with Fade is that it has a steep learning curve. You can either play cautiously, disengaging the moment you take damage and healing back up, or playing aggressively, which more often than not results in a quick death, especially on servers that have more marines than the Fade is balanced for. Playing it safe results in a drop in match effectiveness, whereas playing aggressively leaves you with little time to learn how to be effective with the Fade. I find the speed/energy tradeoff to be a horrible one, because you either move quickly and run out of energy quickly, or move like a pregnant yak while being able to swipe away to your hearts content and still have the energy to slowly run away.
This is why I have been spending more time playing on Combat servers, as dying simply requires you to evolve back into the Fade and carry on. Even then though, it doesn't work very well for learning the Fade role in a normal match, because you have the option of additional upgrades, and because the gameplay is very different. Many Marine teams hide behind mines spamming grenades down the corridors, which often results in taking a lot of damage before you even get within striking distance of a target.
In any case, it's a learn to play issue on my part.
Usually swiping is a better idea since the windup time makes stabbing less effective. Essentially, it's only plus is that you can kill the marine before the marines notice, but usually that doesn't help much. Vortex can be helpful at absorbing bullets, but obviously it should do something else since that doesn't fit the fade's role.
Erm, if you are not gonna be helpful or even read at all, do not post here.
So far you have 11 disagrees and no agrees, followed by Hobo's post which has 11 agrees and you disagreeing with it.
I think it's fair to say that the side of public opinion is generally against your original post, coolitic. All of the 'discussion' in this thread is everyone saying that you're wrong except for in one area: that vortex and stab are crap and need to be reworked. But other than that, the fade is not useless in the early, mid or late game.
There is a steep learning curve for fade, that is very true. If there were an easy way to shallow that curve off, I'd be in favour of it, but ONLY if it doesn't ruin the high level fade play.
This topic comes up from time to time, but no-one ever seems to think about it in the context of the game, which is primarily a resource game. If aliens hold lots of territory (perhaps by virtue of good fades), then they will accumulate enough res to re-fade in the event of losing their glass cannons in a freak shotgun accident. If the alien team is strapped for res, then it's not solely the fade's problem - the whole team is simply losing, and lifeforms should expect to feel even more vulnerable. If you haven't been resbiting, the marines will get upgrades and map presence: the former to make them more potent in battle and the latter to a) allow them to control alien economy more effectively and b) allow them to choose the place and time of the fights more and more.
That last point is what gets many fades killed. Through the resource game, the fade is forced more and more into fighting in unfavourable places, to getting pinched and/or baited, or having to defend in awkward spots.
We should not be buffing the fade in any way to compensate for those situations where the aliens as a team are losing.
Erm, if you are not gonna be helpful or even read at all, do not post here.
Actually, why not take your own advice and stop making these idiotic posts that make me wonder if you've ever even played this game, and then defending them when you're told you don't know what you're talking about by people with many factors more experience than you.
Exactly like that would be OP, but i like how the fade phases in and out. Maybe vortex works both ways and lasts longer? The downside is that you would have to remove the warp-on-attack thing and that would be OP, so another solution would be needed. Or would you guys rather have meat machine's suggestion, which is also a good idea.
Well, this video shows how the fade would be if the mechanics from the beta video (shown earlier) had been implemented in game.
I like where fade is now. I've said this before. Just make the upgrade the pre-build 250 shadow step and cost less team res. Done. Fade upgrades are researched more often.
I personally think stab needs to be replaced/changed. Vortex has some use, but I think it could use a change (it isn't useful enough to research). I like the general idea of metabolize based on how people explained it.
Comments
more like 30-40 minutes.
I am having trouble of understanding what you said. Can you restate that?
That'd be fun. Particularly if the marines could tell if someone/something had been marked.
Imagine with FF on......
Seriously though. Vortex worked out very well as a CC ability. Since we dont know exactly why it was changed:
If it was to strong (big AoE, effectivly shutting down Exos and their welders)
- Make vortex affect the next basic attack, and only remove one player/object instead of the group
If it was too weak (marines could reposition and reload when vortex'd)
- Prevent reload/use and keep large AoE
- Reduce CC to one unit (see above) and do not allow CC'd unit to move or reload
and replace Stab with metabolize** (again, metabolize works better with fade's playstyle than a slow attack)
(** or remove movement penalty/attack wind up)
Basically with a body of statistical data as comprehensive as ns2stats, it's impossible to believe that someone could experience NS2 in so drastically a different way to the rest of the community.
I'm usually pretty willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but this is not a situation where individual experience is a strong variable. 15 mins is the average. iirc earlier in this thread you said you had played 150+ hours which is at least 300 games by your average. To have that many games that were so statistically abnormal is just unbelievable.
This does give some insight as to why you think there are problems with the fade. If fades arrive on the battlefield between 6 and 8 minutes, your perception is that fades are in play for ~80% of the duration of a match whereas they're 'normally' in play for about 50% of the duration of a match.
"Heh heh, im totally gonna get this mari-, OH WHAT THE HELL"
Maybe marines shouldn't see mark but fade has 5-10 seconds to use on marine he last hit (or another way to mark them) so they may suspect an oncoming fade. If this were to be implemented it shouldn't give marine team a huge sign that shows this dude is marked. Should be more subtle. I agree that a CC ability would be good but maybe more of a hindrance so it fits fade role.
better. =D
*fade never uses vortex and marines stand around looking confused*
SEE?! There's a meta behind it, could totally work <:-P
Now? I have adapted to it's uses and can incorporate it into the fade playstyle. Now I don't complain about it.
Why not? Try this. Marines with weapons3 and shotguns almost killing you? Vortex in adjacent room/blink in/start stab animation/shadowstep to compensate for marine dodge. Minimal/moderate dmg taken. Rinse and repeat. Have veils? Aura. Rack up kills and never die again at the cost of a couple extra APM.
In my opinion, I believe vortex and stab is one of the few things that help to deal with 24+ servers. Where late game is just a wall of lvl3 bullets and grenades.
This is why I have been spending more time playing on Combat servers, as dying simply requires you to evolve back into the Fade and carry on. Even then though, it doesn't work very well for learning the Fade role in a normal match, because you have the option of additional upgrades, and because the gameplay is very different. Many Marine teams hide behind mines spamming grenades down the corridors, which often results in taking a lot of damage before you even get within striking distance of a target.
In any case, it's a learn to play issue on my part.
Usually swiping is a better idea since the windup time makes stabbing less effective. Essentially, it's only plus is that you can kill the marine before the marines notice, but usually that doesn't help much. Vortex can be helpful at absorbing bullets, but obviously it should do something else since that doesn't fit the fade's role.
Depends on person to person.
So far you have 11 disagrees and no agrees, followed by Hobo's post which has 11 agrees and you disagreeing with it.
I think it's fair to say that the side of public opinion is generally against your original post, coolitic. All of the 'discussion' in this thread is everyone saying that you're wrong except for in one area: that vortex and stab are crap and need to be reworked. But other than that, the fade is not useless in the early, mid or late game.
There is a steep learning curve for fade, that is very true. If there were an easy way to shallow that curve off, I'd be in favour of it, but ONLY if it doesn't ruin the high level fade play.
This topic comes up from time to time, but no-one ever seems to think about it in the context of the game, which is primarily a resource game. If aliens hold lots of territory (perhaps by virtue of good fades), then they will accumulate enough res to re-fade in the event of losing their glass cannons in a freak shotgun accident. If the alien team is strapped for res, then it's not solely the fade's problem - the whole team is simply losing, and lifeforms should expect to feel even more vulnerable. If you haven't been resbiting, the marines will get upgrades and map presence: the former to make them more potent in battle and the latter to a) allow them to control alien economy more effectively and b) allow them to choose the place and time of the fights more and more.
That last point is what gets many fades killed. Through the resource game, the fade is forced more and more into fighting in unfavourable places, to getting pinched and/or baited, or having to defend in awkward spots.
We should not be buffing the fade in any way to compensate for those situations where the aliens as a team are losing.
Anyways, what would be the pros and cons of replacing stab with metabolize?
How it was written, I assumed it was automatic.
Exactly like that would be OP, but i like how the fade phases in and out. Maybe vortex works both ways and lasts longer? The downside is that you would have to remove the warp-on-attack thing and that would be OP, so another solution would be needed. Or would you guys rather have meat machine's suggestion, which is also a good idea.
I like where fade is now. I've said this before. Just make the upgrade the pre-build 250 shadow step and cost less team res. Done. Fade upgrades are researched more often.