Should Fade Be More Advanced?

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  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Khyron wrote: »
    coolitic wrote: »
    Erm, I noticed that the site you have shown uses the kingkahuna games server quite alot, which may have a different community than the servers I play in. Also, long games will show there less often since the long time means less frequency, but still the different community's might be it.
    What is the average length of an NS2 game in your experience?

    more like 30-40 minutes.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Ots wrote: »
    Just had a god awful 70 min round on 24slot server last night with just horrendous players on both sides with 3hives against 3/3/jp/exo marines for more than half of it, and i sure as hell couldve more than halved of that time if my fade would at least at some point do normal damage to structures. Was so beat i couldnt play ns2 after it, yet when the round ended all the scrubs went "WOW GOOD GAME GUYS". >_<

    I am having trouble of understanding what you said. Can you restate that?
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    What if vortex worked the other way round?

    So if you use it, and you've slashed a marine within the last 10 seconds or whatever, it teleports you to that player.

    So swipe, swipe, blink away and dont get caught.... vortex, swipe, get kills, tee hee.

    Could be useful for avoiding pinches, and also useful as an offensive move. Possibly OP, what do you think?

    That'd be fun. Particularly if the marines could tell if someone/something had been marked.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    "Oh no Jimmy was marked, everyone surround him with shotguns."
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    james888 wrote: »
    "Oh no Jimmy was marked, everyone surround him with shotguns."

    Imagine with FF on......


    Seriously though. Vortex worked out very well as a CC ability. Since we dont know exactly why it was changed:

    If it was to strong (big AoE, effectivly shutting down Exos and their welders)
    - Make vortex affect the next basic attack, and only remove one player/object instead of the group

    If it was too weak (marines could reposition and reload when vortex'd)
    - Prevent reload/use and keep large AoE
    - Reduce CC to one unit (see above) and do not allow CC'd unit to move or reload



    and replace Stab with metabolize** (again, metabolize works better with fade's playstyle than a slow attack)
    (** or remove movement penalty/attack wind up)
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    coolitic wrote: »
    more like 30-40 minutes.
    I'm sorry to say that's just not believable, but it is understandable why you might think that. Longer games go for longer, so you might think you play more of them.

    Basically with a body of statistical data as comprehensive as ns2stats, it's impossible to believe that someone could experience NS2 in so drastically a different way to the rest of the community.

    I'm usually pretty willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but this is not a situation where individual experience is a strong variable. 15 mins is the average. iirc earlier in this thread you said you had played 150+ hours which is at least 300 games by your average. To have that many games that were so statistically abnormal is just unbelievable.

    This does give some insight as to why you think there are problems with the fade. If fades arrive on the battlefield between 6 and 8 minutes, your perception is that fades are in play for ~80% of the duration of a match whereas they're 'normally' in play for about 50% of the duration of a match.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited February 2014
    Like I said Khyron, different servers tend to have different community's (such as regulars and admins for that server) and that can cause differences in game length. The servers I generally play in are majorly rookie-friendly (so I can help rookies and because they're a bit more friendly), but I still go to a lot of non-rookie servers.
    james888 wrote: »
    "Oh no Jimmy was marked, everyone surround him with shotguns."

    "Heh heh, im totally gonna get this mari-, OH WHAT THE HELL"

    Maybe marines shouldn't see mark but fade has 5-10 seconds to use on marine he last hit (or another way to mark them) so they may suspect an oncoming fade. If this were to be implemented it shouldn't give marine team a huge sign that shows this dude is marked. Should be more subtle. I agree that a CC ability would be good but maybe more of a hindrance so it fits fade role.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ok then. "Guys, its Jimmy. I have been marked. Get your shotguns ready."
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    james888 wrote: »
    Ok then. "Guys, its Jimmy. I have been marked. Get your shotguns ready."

    better. =D
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    james888 wrote: »
    Ok then. "Guys, its Jimmy. I have been marked. Get your shotguns ready."

    *fade never uses vortex and marines stand around looking confused*

    SEE?! There's a meta behind it, could totally work <:-P
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Members
    edited February 2014
    Like many people, I wasn't accustomed to the vortex/stab play. So I hated, boycotted, whined about it.

    Now? I have adapted to it's uses and can incorporate it into the fade playstyle. Now I don't complain about it.

    Why not? Try this. Marines with weapons3 and shotguns almost killing you? Vortex in adjacent room/blink in/start stab animation/shadowstep to compensate for marine dodge. Minimal/moderate dmg taken. Rinse and repeat. Have veils? Aura. Rack up kills and never die again at the cost of a couple extra APM.

    In my opinion, I believe vortex and stab is one of the few things that help to deal with 24+ servers. Where late game is just a wall of lvl3 bullets and grenades.
  • ZalamaelZalamael Join Date: 2013-08-18 Member: 186949Members
    edited February 2014
    My only issue with Fade is that it has a steep learning curve. You can either play cautiously, disengaging the moment you take damage and healing back up, or playing aggressively, which more often than not results in a quick death, especially on servers that have more marines than the Fade is balanced for. Playing it safe results in a drop in match effectiveness, whereas playing aggressively leaves you with little time to learn how to be effective with the Fade. I find the speed/energy tradeoff to be a horrible one, because you either move quickly and run out of energy quickly, or move like a pregnant yak while being able to swipe away to your hearts content and still have the energy to slowly run away.

    This is why I have been spending more time playing on Combat servers, as dying simply requires you to evolve back into the Fade and carry on. Even then though, it doesn't work very well for learning the Fade role in a normal match, because you have the option of additional upgrades, and because the gameplay is very different. Many Marine teams hide behind mines spamming grenades down the corridors, which often results in taking a lot of damage before you even get within striking distance of a target.

    In any case, it's a learn to play issue on my part.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    KungFuJV wrote: »
    Like many people, I ...

    Usually swiping is a better idea since the windup time makes stabbing less effective. Essentially, it's only plus is that you can kill the marine before the marines notice, but usually that doesn't help much. Vortex can be helpful at absorbing bullets, but obviously it should do something else since that doesn't fit the fade's role.
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Zalamael wrote: »
    In any case, it's a learn to play issue on my part.
    This. A hundred times this.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    NeXuS wrote: »
    Zalamael wrote: »
    In any case, it's a learn to play issue on my part.
    This. A hundred times this.

    Depends on person to person.
  • tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Should fade be more advanced? No. Next thread.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Erm, if you are not gonna be helpful or even read at all, do not post here.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    coolitic wrote: »
    Erm, if you are not gonna be helpful or even read at all, do not post here.

    So far you have 11 disagrees and no agrees, followed by Hobo's post which has 11 agrees and you disagreeing with it.

    I think it's fair to say that the side of public opinion is generally against your original post, coolitic. All of the 'discussion' in this thread is everyone saying that you're wrong except for in one area: that vortex and stab are crap and need to be reworked. But other than that, the fade is not useless in the early, mid or late game.
    There is a steep learning curve for fade, that is very true. If there were an easy way to shallow that curve off, I'd be in favour of it, but ONLY if it doesn't ruin the high level fade play.

    This topic comes up from time to time, but no-one ever seems to think about it in the context of the game, which is primarily a resource game. If aliens hold lots of territory (perhaps by virtue of good fades), then they will accumulate enough res to re-fade in the event of losing their glass cannons in a freak shotgun accident. If the alien team is strapped for res, then it's not solely the fade's problem - the whole team is simply losing, and lifeforms should expect to feel even more vulnerable. If you haven't been resbiting, the marines will get upgrades and map presence: the former to make them more potent in battle and the latter to a) allow them to control alien economy more effectively and b) allow them to choose the place and time of the fights more and more.

    That last point is what gets many fades killed. Through the resource game, the fade is forced more and more into fighting in unfavourable places, to getting pinched and/or baited, or having to defend in awkward spots.
    We should not be buffing the fade in any way to compensate for those situations where the aliens as a team are losing.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited February 2014
    coolitic wrote: »
    Erm, if you are not gonna be helpful or even read at all, do not post here.
    Actually, why not take your own advice and stop making these idiotic posts that make me wonder if you've ever even played this game, and then defending them when you're told you don't know what you're talking about by people with many factors more experience than you.
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Members
    Imma let you finish, but fade has the best music video around
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Music video?

    Anyways, what would be the pros and cons of replacing stab with metabolize?
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    james888 wrote: »
    Ok then. "Guys, its Jimmy. I have been marked. Get your shotguns ready."

    *fade never uses vortex and marines stand around looking confused*

    SEE?! There's a meta behind it, could totally work <:-P

    How it was written, I assumed it was automatic.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    My intention was that if you had hit a marine, you could use vortex to warp back to them.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    Wouldn't mind if fade was EXACTLY Like this:
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited February 2014
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    Wouldn't mind if fade was EXACTLY Like this:

    Exactly like that would be OP, but i like how the fade phases in and out. Maybe vortex works both ways and lasts longer? The downside is that you would have to remove the warp-on-attack thing and that would be OP, so another solution would be needed. Or would you guys rather have meat machine's suggestion, which is also a good idea.
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Well, this video shows how the fade would be if the mechanics from the beta video (shown earlier) had been implemented in game.

    I like where fade is now. I've said this before. Just make the upgrade the pre-build 250 shadow step and cost less team res. Done. Fade upgrades are researched more often.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited February 2014
    I personally think stab needs to be replaced/changed. Vortex has some use, but I think it could use a change (it isn't useful enough to research). I like the general idea of metabolize based on how people explained it.
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