Hmm, I just got an idea. How about making blink used for movement (and some escape) while shadow step becomes a tele or make it do large, high-energy leaps? Or like I said it could just be blink as tele and shadowstep for movement. Im just throwing ideas here.
Everything you've posted is just change for the sake of change. Why does fade need to be changed at all?
It kind of says in my post, and in the reply's of others why it needs to be changed. Would be nice if you read a bit more.
Just make shadowstep the only fade upgrade, lower upgrade cost, lower energy consumption and revert to previous shadowstep mechanics of pre-build 250.
I would love fade again. Fade hasn't been the same. They could even keep it as needing research.
I will say that the old fade could move around much more efficiently, and had that amazing unpredictability in combat. Shadowstep Fade could definitely be used as an upgrade (still keeping blink for JPs if you dont have Fade ups)
Except you haven't addressed any of the issues with the current fade, only suggesting completely arbitrary changes that actually exacerbate the issues you do try to identify.
Your posts are so full of ignorance and contradiction I have concluded you simply must be a troll.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2014
I think Fades are fine. JP + Shotgun could use another soft counter though. (Early Web perhaps?) Fades are the only effective lifeform against them right now.
Lerks can chase down Jetpacks with GL or FT. But good Shotgunners are just brutal against most aliens. With their high damage, and high speed to compensate for their short range, JP + SG have almost no weakness, and are comparable to Fades in term of power, but with more range, and without the anti-structural weakness.
Except you haven't addressed any of the issues with the current fade, only suggesting completely arbitrary changes that actually exacerbate the issues you do try to identify.
Your posts are so full of ignorance and contradiction I have concluded you simply must be a troll.
Except I, along with the other repliers, have addressed the issues. I kindly ask you to be constructive and read a bit rather than making unnecessary posts, or, if you think you cannot post constructively, just don't post replies.
EDIT: it seems to me it's almost always the same people that tend to troll these posts. @IronHorse it seems you might be needed.
I think Fades are fine. JP + Shotgun could use another soft counter though. (Early Web perhaps?) Fades are the only effective lifeform against them right now.
Lerks can chase down Jetpacks with GL or FT. But good Shotgunners are just brutal against most aliens. With their high damage, and high speed to compensate for their short range, JP + SG have almost no weakness, and are comparable to Fades in term of power, but with more range, and without the anti-structural weakness.
Yeah I think shotgun should have it's attack speed lowered for balancing and would be nice to nerf the jetpack a bit (sometimes I feel like the jpackers never get to the floor without going back up right after). JP + SG also uses less res than fades.
One pointer you should take into account: you cannot compare marine and alien pres costs as a basis for any argument. The res systems are so far apart from each other that comparing the numbers means nothing. I'm not sure why I bother stating this, however, since you seem to be lacking so much fundamental knowledge of NS2 mechanics and flow that your suggestions are little more than a jumble of uneducated opinions.
I think Fades are fine. JP + Shotgun could use another soft counter though. (Early Web perhaps?) Fades are the only effective lifeform against them right now.
Good leap skulks are almost better at taking down jps than fades. Fades only accel at killing jps in rooms with large open spaces. A combination of both is a very good counter.
I think Fades are fine. JP + Shotgun could use another soft counter though. (Early Web perhaps?) Fades are the only effective lifeform against them right now.
Good leap skulks are almost better at taking down jps than fades. Fades only accel at killing jps in rooms with large open spaces. A combination of both is a very good counter.
So true. It's ironic that skulks are actually very good at killing the stuff that comes later in the match. A good one can take down a jp (but recommended you use teamwork/surprise attack) and are good at killing exos especially when it's crowded. See the problem is that fade comes later in the match but is unable to kill marine's later game stuff except for jp's, but a skulk can be as good at doing it except for larger areas (and fades cost 50 res while skulks cost none). They still do excel at "cleaning up" after the other lifeforms attack but do not have enough presence during team fights. For example, a lerk can gas the enemy and protect their team with umbra. Onos is a behemoth that charges through and skulks are the grunts that follow. Fades however, for the amount of res they consume, cannot maintain a large enough presence in teamfights as they are single target killers and often have to go back to base to heal up which does take some time.
Also, to address certain issues here (not necessarily you mattji), if any1 has an issue with me or does not want to post constructively, feel free to do it with messages and refrain from posting it here as it does not solve anything and just derails the topic.
I think Fades are fine. JP + Shotgun could use another soft counter though. (Early Web perhaps?) Fades are the only effective lifeform against them right now.
Good leap skulks are almost better at taking down jps than fades. Fades only accel at killing jps in rooms with large open spaces. A combination of both is a very good counter.
So true. It's ironic that skulks are actually very good at killing the stuff that comes later in the match. A good one can take down a jp (but recommended you use teamwork/surprise attack) and are good at killing exos especially when it's crowded. See the problem is that fade comes later in the match but is unable to kill marine's later game stuff except for jp's, but a skulk can be as good at doing it except for larger areas (and fades cost 50 res while skulks cost none). They still do excel at "cleaning up" after the other lifeforms attack but do not have enough presence during team fights. For example, a lerk can gas the enemy and protect their team with umbra. Onos is a behemoth that charges through and skulks are the grunts that follow. Fades however, for the amount of res they consume, cannot maintain a large enough presence in teamfights as they are single target killers and often have to go back to base to heal up which does take some time.
You might have misunderstood my point. Fades are going to be the primary killing machines through out mid/late game. Groups of skulks may be extremely effective at killing jetpacks but fades still have to land swipes in those engagements. A solo skulk is not going to be able to bite a jp marine 4+ times to kill him.
tl;dr Fades are still the most effective lifeform late game as far as overall killing power is concerned.
Please read my post (I dont mean that in negative way.) I'm basically saying fades usually don't maintain a large enough presence (for the amount of res they use) during team fight since they are single target killers and because they often have to go back to base to back to base to heal a few times during the teamfight and that consumes time.
@coolitic Regarding your response to meatmachine, please remove your abuse flag on his post. That's not the intended purpose of the abuse flag. Since you already called IronHorse on this, I'll let him deal that. But he will say the same as I just did.
Fades are still the most effective lifeform late game as far as overall killing power is concerned.
And that's their intended purpose. Killing ground Marines with Fades in the field is usually pretty easy. However, learning how and when to engage JP Marines is a different story. Trying to take down a JP Marine in an open room like Cargo is a nightmare, especially since it's usually more than one Marine attacking at a time. You should never try, or at least I don't think you should try, to land all 4 swipes in one engagement. Both your energy and health will drop. Instead let your teammates help, whether skulks or lerks, and try to finish them when they are low on health or retreat to smaller corridor with a lower ceiling like Y-Junction.
See the problem is that fade comes later in the match but is unable to kill marine's later game stuff except for jp's, but a skulk can be as good at doing it except for larger areas (and fades cost 50 res while skulks cost none). They still do excel at "cleaning up" after the other lifeforms attack but do not have enough presence during team fights.
Again, you seem to misunderstand the purpose of the fade. The fade was designed as a Marine killing machine. More specifically, a Marine recapper killing machine. When a comm sends a marine to recap a node, its the fade job to kill that marine in a 1v1 scenario. Yes, fades do "clean up" after Onos enter the field but that's also usually when JPs are out and the onos can only land one or two hits before the marine flies out range for onos to finish. Enter Fade or skulks w/ leap. Fades become support for Onos in the late game while still trying deny recappers in a 1v1 situation. A good fade can manage all this effectively.
I consider it abuse because he said I'm "so full of ignorance" and that I "must be a troll". If you can make a good argument as to why thats not abuse, I'll remove the flag.
Going back on topic, as for the first part of what you said, I already know that and couldn't agree more. As for the second part I know that a fade can kill all 1v1's, but 1 or 2 skulks can do that too (and they dont use res). As for what you said about fades "supporting" the onos, I assume you meant assisting the onos. The fade can very well assist the onos, but still it isn't always worth the res cost and 2 skulks can partially fulfill that role. A good fade manages to do enough damage while still escaping safely, but, fades have a very limited window to do damage and then have to go back to heal up which means, like I said, fades don't have a large enough presence in teamfights. Expanding this windows by giving the fade more agility (maybe with the abilities I suggested?), giving it an ability to heal very quickly (not the best choice), and/or letting it dish out more damage in that time window would definitely help increase it's presence in teamfights.
As per Ironhorse in a PM on Steam, abuse is classified as extreme belittlement of a user by using profanity, racial slurs, etc. Saying your posts are ignorant and you are a troll doesnt qualify for an abuse flag. While he could probably reword his post, flagging for abuse isnt appropriate.
You say skulks can do the same job as Fade. Well, here's a question. 2 skulks vs 1 A3/W3 JP/Shotty Marine or 1 Fade vs 1 A3/W3 JP/Shotty Marine? If you say 2 skulks over 1 fade, you need to learn the game more. Fades are fine. Upgrades could use more work but it seems you just don't like fades and want them to be "tougher to use" despite an incredibly high skill ceiling already imposed.
Do you watch comp matches on Twitch? I would suggest you look there if you haven't to see how some of the top players in the world perform as fade and not just using public matches as a base for an argument.
yep, watch them closely please, and see how much they struggle. The fade is too weak, the low speed/high energy consumption combo is a nightmare. Nerfing the structure damage was enough to achieve the "no fade ball" goal. Right now when fades are out, it's either lerks have done the job and fades are just there to finish the round, or the marines have the edge and having enough impact with fades to come back in the game is REALLY hard.
@NeXuS, alright you make a good argument but it seems you have misunderstood my post. I said 2 skulks can partially fulfill much of the fades role but the big drawback here is that fades use considerable res (both for the player and the khamm) and the res isn't worth that much for what it can do. My biggest problem with the fade is their presence in teamfights and I explained the problem and possible solutions. Lets start talking about the teamfight aspect of the fade.
EDIT: Also, shouldn't the majority of the players count as the base rather than the best players in the world? I'll look into these twitch feeds later.
Why would you even suggest making serious balance changes around the portion of the playerbase that by and large doesn't know how to play the game properly?
Alright, this is why I suggested 2 balance modes multiple times earlier (not on this topic). One is for the skilled/experienced players, the other is for new/kind-of-experienced players. Each is based around the other but the problem obviously being more development time. And I didn't say base it on the playerbase that doesn't know how to play, I said it shouldn't be balanced around the top players in the world, rather based on most of the players. (of course, it's possible that isn't what nexus meant)
And...why shouldn't balance changes be based around the players that display the uppermost potential of every style of play in the game?
These are the best possible parameters to base balance decisions around because things such as players not knowing what things do, not knowing what to do in specific situations, mechanical errors with certain weapons/lifeforms, and lack of communication, map awareness, or teamwork are minimized or eliminated, as these variables can lead to seriously skewed viewpoints on what is balanced or not.
Those parameters do not only apply to the top players of the world. Lots of people can meet all those requirements but that does not make them the top players of the world. Let me make an example: When I was playing Crysis 3 (before hackers came in the middle of the 2 week beta test), I was swift, stealthy, and had quite a trigger finger. I ranked high on the leaderboards and even got in top 600 for kills and top 300 for doing skill shots (requires resourcefulness, accuracy, timing, and placement). Did that make me one of the top players in the game? Maybe in some aspects but definitely not mindset. However, there is a fine line between these top players of the world and the highly-skilled pub players and one of the things that separates them is mindset. Competitive players will treat the game much differently then pub players regardless of skill.
What do Crysis 3 leaderboards that take their statistics from random public play matches have to do with making balance decisions based on the play of two organized competitive teams of six in NS2?
You can't have 2 balance changes (one for comp and one for pubs) When you change the game to facilitate a lower skill group, no matter how large, the higher skilled players will have more of an advantage than they already do by understanding how to play the game.
Let's suppose you buff the Fade as you suggest. Faster energy regen, more hp, and more structure damage. Yes, you make it make it easier for newer and less skilled players to adapt and perform well as a fade. However, imagine how higher skilled players will perform considering they already excel at fade at its current iteration. You would see more complaints of "Fade OP" than you already do.
What do Crysis 3 leaderboards that take their statistics from random public play matches have to do with making balance decisions based on the play of two organized competitive teams of six in NS2?
How is that even relevant?
Well I explained that even with high-skill, even if you have all those qualities you mentioned, a pub player isn't the same as a competitive player regardless of skill because their different mindsets make them both play and treat the game differently. Take Counter Strike for example: It's not focused on competitive players and there are both highly-skilled players and new players in the game. Can it be played competitively? Yes, and it still works well.
Comments
Maybe Fade upgrades should unlock double jump too!
It kind of says in my post, and in the reply's of others why it needs to be changed. Would be nice if you read a bit more.
I will say that the old fade could move around much more efficiently, and had that amazing unpredictability in combat. Shadowstep Fade could definitely be used as an upgrade (still keeping blink for JPs if you dont have Fade ups)
Your posts are so full of ignorance and contradiction I have concluded you simply must be a troll.
Lerks can chase down Jetpacks with GL or FT. But good Shotgunners are just brutal against most aliens. With their high damage, and high speed to compensate for their short range, JP + SG have almost no weakness, and are comparable to Fades in term of power, but with more range, and without the anti-structural weakness.
Except I, along with the other repliers, have addressed the issues. I kindly ask you to be constructive and read a bit rather than making unnecessary posts, or, if you think you cannot post constructively, just don't post replies.
EDIT: it seems to me it's almost always the same people that tend to troll these posts. @IronHorse it seems you might be needed.
Yeah I think shotgun should have it's attack speed lowered for balancing and would be nice to nerf the jetpack a bit (sometimes I feel like the jpackers never get to the floor without going back up right after). JP + SG also uses less res than fades.
Good leap skulks are almost better at taking down jps than fades. Fades only accel at killing jps in rooms with large open spaces. A combination of both is a very good counter.
So true. It's ironic that skulks are actually very good at killing the stuff that comes later in the match. A good one can take down a jp (but recommended you use teamwork/surprise attack) and are good at killing exos especially when it's crowded. See the problem is that fade comes later in the match but is unable to kill marine's later game stuff except for jp's, but a skulk can be as good at doing it except for larger areas (and fades cost 50 res while skulks cost none). They still do excel at "cleaning up" after the other lifeforms attack but do not have enough presence during team fights. For example, a lerk can gas the enemy and protect their team with umbra. Onos is a behemoth that charges through and skulks are the grunts that follow. Fades however, for the amount of res they consume, cannot maintain a large enough presence in teamfights as they are single target killers and often have to go back to base to heal up which does take some time.
edit:
Wow. Maturity*... Mature-ness....
Also, to address certain issues here (not necessarily you mattji), if any1 has an issue with me or does not want to post constructively, feel free to do it with messages and refrain from posting it here as it does not solve anything and just derails the topic.
You might have misunderstood my point. Fades are going to be the primary killing machines through out mid/late game. Groups of skulks may be extremely effective at killing jetpacks but fades still have to land swipes in those engagements. A solo skulk is not going to be able to bite a jp marine 4+ times to kill him.
tl;dr Fades are still the most effective lifeform late game as far as overall killing power is concerned.
ANYWAYS, on topic..... And that's their intended purpose. Killing ground Marines with Fades in the field is usually pretty easy. However, learning how and when to engage JP Marines is a different story. Trying to take down a JP Marine in an open room like Cargo is a nightmare, especially since it's usually more than one Marine attacking at a time. You should never try, or at least I don't think you should try, to land all 4 swipes in one engagement. Both your energy and health will drop. Instead let your teammates help, whether skulks or lerks, and try to finish them when they are low on health or retreat to smaller corridor with a lower ceiling like Y-Junction.
Again, you seem to misunderstand the purpose of the fade. The fade was designed as a Marine killing machine. More specifically, a Marine recapper killing machine. When a comm sends a marine to recap a node, its the fade job to kill that marine in a 1v1 scenario. Yes, fades do "clean up" after Onos enter the field but that's also usually when JPs are out and the onos can only land one or two hits before the marine flies out range for onos to finish. Enter Fade or skulks w/ leap. Fades become support for Onos in the late game while still trying deny recappers in a 1v1 situation. A good fade can manage all this effectively.
Going back on topic, as for the first part of what you said, I already know that and couldn't agree more. As for the second part I know that a fade can kill all 1v1's, but 1 or 2 skulks can do that too (and they dont use res). As for what you said about fades "supporting" the onos, I assume you meant assisting the onos. The fade can very well assist the onos, but still it isn't always worth the res cost and 2 skulks can partially fulfill that role. A good fade manages to do enough damage while still escaping safely, but, fades have a very limited window to do damage and then have to go back to heal up which means, like I said, fades don't have a large enough presence in teamfights. Expanding this windows by giving the fade more agility (maybe with the abilities I suggested?), giving it an ability to heal very quickly (not the best choice), and/or letting it dish out more damage in that time window would definitely help increase it's presence in teamfights.
Anyways, I still like your argument.
You say skulks can do the same job as Fade. Well, here's a question. 2 skulks vs 1 A3/W3 JP/Shotty Marine or 1 Fade vs 1 A3/W3 JP/Shotty Marine? If you say 2 skulks over 1 fade, you need to learn the game more. Fades are fine. Upgrades could use more work but it seems you just don't like fades and want them to be "tougher to use" despite an incredibly high skill ceiling already imposed.
Do you watch comp matches on Twitch? I would suggest you look there if you haven't to see how some of the top players in the world perform as fade and not just using public matches as a base for an argument.
EDIT: Also, shouldn't the majority of the players count as the base rather than the best players in the world? I'll look into these twitch feeds later.
These are the best possible parameters to base balance decisions around because things such as players not knowing what things do, not knowing what to do in specific situations, mechanical errors with certain weapons/lifeforms, and lack of communication, map awareness, or teamwork are minimized or eliminated, as these variables can lead to seriously skewed viewpoints on what is balanced or not.
PS: What you guys think of my quadraxis? =P
How is that even relevant?
Let's suppose you buff the Fade as you suggest. Faster energy regen, more hp, and more structure damage. Yes, you make it make it easier for newer and less skilled players to adapt and perform well as a fade. However, imagine how higher skilled players will perform considering they already excel at fade at its current iteration. You would see more complaints of "Fade OP" than you already do.
Well I explained that even with high-skill, even if you have all those qualities you mentioned, a pub player isn't the same as a competitive player regardless of skill because their different mindsets make them both play and treat the game differently. Take Counter Strike for example: It's not focused on competitive players and there are both highly-skilled players and new players in the game. Can it be played competitively? Yes, and it still works well.