What makes an ideal public game?

NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
edited February 2014 in NS2 General Discussion
As the title says, What is an ideal public game?

There are a few factors to consider. Skill, player count, and game mentality are all relevant. Natural selection 2 is a game therefore the goal is to have fun while playing. Duh right. Each individual has their own way of having fun during a game. This is why I want to keep skill and player count out of this discussion as everyone knows their preference. I would like to focus on game mentality as a factor in fun.

So why do I want to focus on this? Well it is because I see it vary so much from pub game to pub game and from person to person. The competitive players, of which I am not, have their own set if not defined mentality. A culture if you will. Public games practically by definition lack this. “So what”? you might say because it is just a public game. It is what I should expect right? Maybe, but I think it does not have to be that way entirely.

Some problems that persist and are discussed in these forums even right now are stacking, over accusations of stacking, early conceding. I don’t want to discuss these individually here as they each have their own thread. I would rather see them as a collective problem and discuss them as such.
So are these problems systemic to ns2 with its high skill gap, snowball mechanics, and team based play? Can these problems be mitigated by a better more positive game mentality? How do we, the hardcore fans of ns2 that actually come to these forums, make a more positive game mentality or game culture with in the ns2 public games? I know I know these are not just problems

The other side of this that I see is not just what sours a match, but what makes a round of ns2 special. I am not sure how to put this into words. Besides the fun mechanics it comes from when people actually organize and play as a team. This is public games I am talking about and this does happen. A lot of people already play in competitive teams or pub to get this. The gather system is coming too. Is it possible to also try and push that team play mentality further into public players? If so, how do we as a community do just that outside of a gather system?
From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
coolitic

Comments

  • CCTEECCTEE Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Posts: 772 Advanced user
    Drunk, loud people with mics and nothing to do on saturday nights!
    grrrr im beast
    SolidSpiderGhosthree3
  • SolidSpiderSolidSpider Members Join Date: 2013-04-14 Member: 184805Posts: 46
    Less than 20 players. More important than a lot of people realise, judging by the server browser ._.
    DC_DarklingGhosthree3
  • nezznezz Members Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Posts: 291
    when i 100 bomb.
  • MoFoMoFo Members Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Posts: 150
    What makes an ideal pub game...

    1) Having enough people on each team who actually use their mics and listen. (you know, teamwork)
    2) Having two competent commanders who know what they're doing and give orders (at least via text if not via mic)
    3) Not having 1-3 players in the server who are god-like compared to everyone else in skill level.


    The most common cause of a "bad" pub game in my experience is #3... Many times there are 1-3 players who are just SO far above everyone else they just can't be touched. These players often compound the problem by rushing straight for the natural RT's and cutting them off, then they camp outside the base and farm kills instead of moving in to end the game. (because they want their high kdr)

    It becomes 100 times worse when these god-like players get the res for JP+SG or Fade... They can often unbalance the teams all on their own... Basically turning it into a 1 man "stack" lol


    ThePyroSquirrelSanCo
  • ZalamaelZalamael Members Join Date: 2013-08-18 Member: 186949Posts: 121
    If I had to put my finger on it, I would say no nimrods are allowed to play.

  • NarfwakNarfwak Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Posts: 3,787 admin
    edited February 2014
    In my personal opinion, these are the big things for NS2 specifically:
    1) 16-20 players (14 is okay for some maps)
    2) At least one person on each team that's friendly enough to explain things to new players
    3) 2-4 people on the ground per team that are fairly good but not high competitive level to make things interesting and keep the game flowing
    4) A commander for both teams. Obvious, sure, but let's not overlook the obvious.

    Once you've got that out of the way just don't have anyone who's flagrantly obnoxious or trying to grief the game and it's pretty easy to get a good public round. Other things like the server being stable and having reasonable, mature admins helps, but it's really not required. As long as the players are sufficiently capable of being sociable with each other the added value of a server community and playing with friends that you know isn't a strict requirement (but obviously is still fun and does add value). The problem is that usually that selection of people listed above that know the game well like to stick together for fairly obvious reasons - it's more fun to play with teammates of a similar skill level than hand-hold your team through the round. That's true even if they've never met or played together before, and it's true for almost any team-based game with team sizes larger than 2 or 3 per team. Making sure that you split up the player skill without making the veteran players feel like they're doing "work" and "carrying" the rest of the team is the significant challenge here, and that requires that the veterans not only be evenly split but also for the ratio of veterans to new players to be fairly even - quite a tall order when sales happen, as I'm sure everyone here has experienced!

    The new option to balance teams based on "skill" that's coming in 263 is a step in the right direction, but obviously the skill rating has some pretty big flaws right now so it's only somewhat useful until the "skill" rating is more reflective of actual player ability and not a player's investment in powering the stat as much as they can.

    The biggest panacea to easy, satisfying public play would be a solid matchmaking system. We're closer now than we've been in the past, but it's still a fair ways away. Matchmaking requires valid tracking statistics (which "skill" does not sufficiently satisfy) in addition to designing a system similar to gather that could collect players and plop them on a server. A lot of the work done on gather would translate to that in terms of the backend stuff, but the bigger hurdle of having valid and mature player skill stats remain.
    UWE Playtest Lead
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  • JektJekt Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    I just want medpacks and ammo when I play marine. That's all.
    MaxAmusTheriusGhosthree3
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    Yea, and i want a million dollars
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • justbob333justbob333 Members Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183502Posts: 13
    20+ players
    Even teams.
    not having me as marine comm.

  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    What makes a decent game?

    Where teams are evenly balanced that last well into the 30 to 60 min period, where its a constant 50 / 50 push against gaining control of hives, losing one stronghold only to gain another until the balance of power is favoured to one side.

    Gathering a few like minded individuals that will listen to reason, slow down, take a deep breath and formulate a plan e.g. sneak gorge tunnel / bilebomb rush or surprise phasegate followed by nerve gas to surpress armor with shotguns to bare on an unguarded hive.

    Even when your on the losing side, I can admit defeat and say GG despite all the whiners, conceders, trolls, rookies.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UKMembers, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Posts: 564 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Good commanders that use the mic and DROP MEDS AND AMMO, and players that listen and dont back seat command, its all good saying "this area is clear, do u want anything here"
    A team thst dose just that, work as a team,

    ENSL.org Ns2 League Ref/Caster -- Natural Selection 2 Playtester -- How to kill a fade East's One Man Wrecking Band My Twitch.tv Channel
  • SanCoSanCo Members Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155744Posts: 139
    edited February 2014
    MoFo wrote: »
    farm kills instead of moving in to end the game. (because they want their high kdr)

    Wrong. Doesn't matter how good you are, you can't kill a hive by yourself if you have killed everyone so they spawn over and over again, there is no way you'll have the DPS to both kill skulks and hive. Holding a favorable marine position, cutting off the Kharaa and getting map control for the commander is what they're doing. I sincerely doubt farm killing is their thought (comp players, hard to tell with skilled pubbers).
    Theriuscoolitic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Lets try to keep this away from skill and player count as I mentioned in the OP. Can we focus on game mentality and how to make it more positive?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    coolitic
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    The best public games I've had have been completely full with comp players...
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    For me it is:

    Teams communicating and working together
    1 or 2 Field Comms (depending on size of team) leading and encouraging the players out in the field on individual assaults
    Players communicating and helping each other where possible
    Comms who know what they are doing.

    With good communication comes an enjoyable experience, even if you are on a vastly inferior team..
    Games:Subnautica Fan Game Mods: GorgeCraft & CTF & Proving Grounds Website: andysoulrider.uk
    Twitter: @AndySoulRider Twitch: Twitch.tv/SoulRider YouTube: Youtube.com/user/IamSoulRider/videos

    Capitalisation is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.
    Knowledge is gained through listening, Understanding is gained through discussion.
    coolitic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Roobubba wrote: »
    The best public games I've had have been completely full with comp players...
    Is that just the overall skill effecting that, or is it the competitive mentality in a pub game?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Jekt wrote: »
    I just want medpacks and ammo when I play marine. That's all.
    But then how will the comm get upgrades? Stop being so damn selfish.
    76561197996992409.png
    Jekt
  • wulfwulf Members Join Date: 2008-08-03 Member: 64749Posts: 415 Fully active user
    What makes a good game for me is open mindedness and enthusiasm of player to do ridiculous things and not just the standard pub-strat forumula.

    Rush catalyst? Fck yeah. Gorge rush? Fck yeah. When players are excited for these kinds of games it warms my heart. Too bad these unconventional rounds are shunned as troll-games on some servers...
    JektcooliticNordic
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    An ideal public game all depends on the # of good players and the admins/rules. Good players are ones that communicate at least a bit and have at least some skill (but more preferably a good attitude), and good admins are fun, have a good attitude, and enforce good rules. There aren't that many servers that have admins that are both good and active but you can find a few. Good players can either come by luck, or some community's tend to have good players hence their servers will tend to have good players.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Can som1 explain to me what are "snowball" mechanics?
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • CCTEECCTEE Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Posts: 772 Advanced user
    once a snowball starts rolling down the hill it gets bigger and bigger by picking up more snow.
    In other words: the team that is winning gets stronger and stronger.
    grrrr im beast
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    james888 wrote: »
    Roobubba wrote: »
    The best public games I've had have been completely full with comp players...
    Is that just the overall skill effecting that, or is it the competitive mentality in a pub game?

    In a 'pub' game where it happens that you have all comp players, I find the attitude of those players changes more towards a pug or pcw. Everyone looks at the scoreboard and realises two things: a) this is going to be a tougher than average match and b) I can rely on my teammates much more than usual for a pub.

    B above is fantastic. It's what I hope for in all pubs. People buy welders and use them. People position themselves to cover each other. People count down before engagements. There is pressure, defence, res-biting and the commander gives succinct and sensible orders. People lane block, they stay near phase gates during a double pressure, they cut off lifeforms.
    And best of all, they aim well. You cannot get away with the normal pub play that makes us comp players rusty and gives us bad habits.
    If I could only play both with and against top players, I would.
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Part B I really think is a big part of the ns2 game mentality that needs to be worked on in pubs. This is a team game and needs to be played as such even in a pub setting with strangers.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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