@coolitic there is nothing easy about lerking against competent Marines in comp matches. They are so squishy it's not even funny. Fade upgrades do need to be worked on, but the fade itself is otherwise in a good spot. A fade with high accuracy and game sense is very very tough to deal with unless you're already ahead in tech.
In almost every game I play, lerk feels unchallenged to me. What I mean is that for 25 res, you can kill over 50 res worth of marines. (as in their equipment). Of course it's much easier to use lerk when you get umbra. It also might be im just too good with dem lerks =D
Have a go against comp/pro marines with shotguns. Most pub players aren't smart enough to anticipate Lerks when they make their play obvious, so there is never enough combined firepower to drop them. And the Lerk flies off and heals up at the nearest Crag/Hive/Gorge. Against good players though, you will die the moment you try the same play twice, as the moment you are visible, 2-3 players will be in position to rip you a new orifice, and you wont be able to escape before you die.
Hmm, do you mean I should play competitive games? My definition of competitive is tournament and my definition of pub is just to play and have fun. I do not like tourneys nor do I for the sake of winning, I play for fun. Of course if you aren't suggesting I play tournaments please say so. I have played against "skilled" marines (and there are not too many tbh) and I still usually don't find it hard to kill considerably more res-worth than I spend on the lerk.
But hey, we are talking about fades here and not lerks right?
You don't have to play on a comp team to play higher skilled players. Pugs are open to everyone. Come play with us sometime as a lerk or a fade. $5 says you flash.
On a side note, a fade's job is just as important as a skulk or lerk that bites res, but in a different sense. A fade's main job is to respond to marine aggression before onos pop and deny recappers. Once a skulk or lerk destroy a res node, it's the fade's job to kill any recappers before they get a node up. Do you see that pubs, usually not. In pugs or comp play? Always.
Most teams send one marine to recap a node. Fade kills recapper. Comm sends one marine again to recap node. Fade kills recapper again. Comm sends two marines to recap node, which in turn forces a lane open as there aren't enough marines to properly lane block, thus giving aliens an opening to push to another area or, get this, destroy more nodes which in turn the fade, again, denies. Lather, rinse, repeat.
So, as you can see, fades are very useful. Upgrades? Nah. Don't really need them. Fades are fine without ups. I'd be happy with the aliens' comm spending that 35 res elsewhere.
@coolitic there is nothing easy about lerking against competent Marines in comp matches. They are so squishy it's not even funny. Fade upgrades do need to be worked on, but the fade itself is otherwise in a good spot. A fade with high accuracy and game sense is very very tough to deal with unless you're already ahead in tech.
In almost every game I play, lerk feels unchallenged to me. What I mean is that for 25 res, you can kill over 50 res worth of marines. (as in their equipment). Of course it's much easier to use lerk when you get umbra. It also might be im just too good with dem lerks =D
Have a go against comp/pro marines with shotguns. Most pub players aren't smart enough to anticipate Lerks when they make their play obvious, so there is never enough combined firepower to drop them. And the Lerk flies off and heals up at the nearest Crag/Hive/Gorge. Against good players though, you will die the moment you try the same play twice, as the moment you are visible, 2-3 players will be in position to rip you a new orifice, and you wont be able to escape before you die.
Hmm, do you mean I should play competitive games? My definition of competitive is tournament and my definition of pub is just to play and have fun. I do not like tourneys nor do I for the sake of winning, I play for fun. Of course if you aren't suggesting I play tournaments please say so. I have played against "skilled" marines (and there are not too many tbh) and I still usually don't find it hard to kill considerably more res-worth than I spend on the lerk.
But hey, we are talking about fades here and not lerks right?
I meant against highly skilled players. In my experience (and I mean no offense in saying this) Euro players are far more skilled than American players are, but American servers tend to have far more people using mics and coordinating their pushes, which doesn't happen enough on Euro servers. Playing as a Lerk against skilled Marines is very hazardous, but satisfies the high risk/high reward playstyle.
But yes, you are right, this topic is about Fades. I am not really the best person to talk about Fade play, as I suck pretty badly as Fade (poor energy management combined with lack of practice, really should get my arse onto a Combat server and learn to play it properly). But I still believe with the exception of Vortex and Stab, Fades have their place in the game. Aside from leaping Skulks (unreliable) and Lerks (flimsy) Fades have their place as they are good for taking out JP + SG Marines.
You don't to play on a comp team to play higher skilled players. Pugs are open to everyone. Come play with us sometime as a lerk or a fade. $5 says you flash.
Saw your name earlier in game on the Vexta high skill server (I didn't play, was merely browsing the server details). Not sure if I fit the requirements, but I might well come and have a go, would be nice to play matches with 2 solid teams. Are the matches on that server any good?
You don't to play on a comp team to play higher skilled players. Pugs are open to everyone. Come play with us sometime as a lerk or a fade. $5 says you flash.
Saw your name earlier in game on the Vexta high skill server (I didn't play, was merely browsing the server details). Not sure if I fit the requirements, but I might well come and have a go, would be nice to play matches with 2 solid teams. Are the matches on that server any good?
I think there must be another Nexus around unless I joined that server without realizing it. :P You could try it out unless they have a skill requirement. On the other hand, if you're interested I could give the info for the pugs where all the competitive players hang out and play.
The way teleporting would be balanced would be energy cost and casting distance. Maybe killing marines can give you some energy? Also, fades would have to be very careful against energy sap grenades (which would be one of the marine's fade counters) as it would leave the fade highly vulnerable. I think positioning and timing requires a mix of planning, precision, and quick thinking.
I don't think the pulse grenade saps energy. I think it just slows attacks of affected aliens. Energy consumption is the same but the time between attacks is just slightly increased. And blinking like in the video would be so OP it's ridiculous. Facing the nearest target? Too easy.
No item in the game saps energy. Flamethrower reduces energy recharge speed. Pulse grenades slow down attack speed (and/or reduce energy recharge time). Im not sure on the parentheses enclosed part. Anyway... both current fade and lerk are balanced "in an environment of equally skilled players on each team." All Nexus was trying to say was: A skilled fade/lerk in a pub may not do nearly as well in a organized environment. Fading against a good marine in a pub is fairly easy... but fading against a group of 5 good field marines is quite a different story. Your god-fade/lerk suddenly might feel a bit more squishy.
You don't to play on a comp team to play higher skilled players. Pugs are open to everyone. Come play with us sometime as a lerk or a fade. $5 says you flash.
Saw your name earlier in game on the Vexta high skill server (I didn't play, was merely browsing the server details). Not sure if I fit the requirements, but I might well come and have a go, would be nice to play matches with 2 solid teams. Are the matches on that server any good?
I think there must be another Nexus around unless I joined that server without realizing it. :P You could try it out unless they have a skill requirement. On the other hand, if you're interested I could give the info for the pugs where all the competitive players hang out and play.
Ah, might not have been, but I'm pretty certain it had the cap X in the middle. Thanks for the offer, but I'm still an NS2 noob at the moment (although I usually tend to be pretty good at shooters once I get used to playing them) so I will probably need a bit more practice, especially on my Lifeform skills Miffed at the moment, my FPS mouse has a break in the cable so it is intermittent, having to play with a Logitech G600 MMO mouse that weighs more than my tackle :P
No item in the game saps energy. Flamethrower reduces energy recharge speed. Pulse grenades slow down attack speed (and/or reduce energy recharge time). Im not sure on the parentheses enclosed part. Anyway... both current fade and lerk are balanced "in an environment of equally skilled players on each team." All Nexus was trying to say was: A skilled fade/lerk in a pub may not do nearly as well in a organized environment. Fading against a good marine in a pub is fairly easy... but fading against a group of 5 good field marines is quite a different story. Your god-fade/lerk suddenly might feel a bit more squishy.
I could of sworn pulse grenades sapped energy. Maybe it should? Or maybe cause slows?
Also, fading against a group of 5 marines will obviously get you killed because you're extremely outnumbered. A good player does not get himself into that kind of situation.
I didn't mean 5 good marines in the same room... I guess I worded that poorly. I meant just a handful of good marines on the same team (ie go play a pug.)
I think my title asks a good question indeed (lets hope this doesn't turn ugly). I personally think fade should be much harder, should be that lifeform in NS2 that has more skill-oriented gameplay. Right now, the fade is less useful compared to other lifeforms. It is mainly used for drawing fire and assisting phase gate destruction from my experience as the other lifeforms are often better in other cases (onos still draws fire better, but not as good at escaping to make it useful enough). I have an idea for blink, where instead of flying it can be an ability that allows for teleporting (not too far) at the cost of energy (amount of energy would have to do with balance). Shadowstep should maybe receive a buff and maybe even come first but as a tradeoff the fade should have lower health/armor. This way shadowstep would be useful for speed while blink can be used for positioning (maybe similarly to fade reveal trailer?) and both used together can help the fade escape. This way the fade would be a high-risk life form because of the low hp, and along with these abilities it would give an exhilarating and mildly intense experience (and probably frustrating for some). Do you guys think vortex should be changed or are you happy as it is?
Discuss.
How many hrs in NS2 do you have OP?
You say fade should be harder to play and are less useful than lerks and lerks are better jet killers but contrary to popular belief, lerks melt/render themselves useless in close quarter combat most of the time jets come out. Fades are the best counter to jets because a good marine will just stay out of spiking site of a lerk and close distance. Fades can flank jetters and if they fail, they can try again... I do it very often in pubs, pugs, comp games. Im not going to go over what fades are meant for because Nexus covered that and for the new skill implementations you've suggested, the current blink and shadowstep are fine... The fade has gone through multiple stages of reformation and it seems as if the public is still learning the current meta fade. I doubt devs would want to change it again.
People still haven't figured out how to incorporate shadowstep into their fades too and to ask for the fade to be "harder" is like drifting a car and asking for it to be harder when you have no knowledge of downshifting. I have vids of fading if you want to see what its like from a decent fade perspective.
175 hours. I only play a match every so often. Most of these hours are from a year ago. "Pugs" are not necessarily more skilled than "pubs" and I'm not gonna go on teamspeak all the time just to play ns2 for fun. Also, fade is worse than lerk when it comes to jetpacks imo. But of course, maybe for others it might not and I am unable to know that. Like I said earlier, lets get off the topic of lerks and get back to fade.
First, just in case some of you might be confused:
Pugs: Stands for "Pick Up Games" meaning you organize a casual/competitive match via teamspeak, steam, or the like
Pubs: Stands for "Public Games" and is basically any open server.
Competitive: Except in the case of pugs (where you would just call it a pug obv), competitive matches are when you play mainly for ranking high on the leaderboards or to get money.
"Pugs" are not necessarily more skilled than "pubs"
How did you manage to come to that conclusion when you have never actually participated in a pug?
For someone who only has 175 hours, you sure [air quotes] "know" [/air quotes] a lot about game balance/mechanics in ns2.
"Pugs" are not necessarily more skilled than "pubs"
How did you manage to come to that conclusion when you have never actually participated in a pug?
For someone who only has 175 hours, you sure [air quotes] "know" [/air quotes] a lot about game balance/mechanics in ns2.
And people wonder why competitive players have a reputation for embarrassingly large egos. I just can't understand why someone might get that impression.
Seriously guys, deriding someone for 'only' having 175 hours played? Stop that.
No I'm deriding him for making numerous claims on life form balance when he has not even been actively playing the game since 249. It's getting ridiculous.
"Pugs" are not necessarily more skilled than "pubs"
How did you manage to come to that conclusion when you have never actually participated in a pug?
For someone who only has 175 hours, you sure [air quotes] "know" [/air quotes] a lot about game balance/mechanics in ns2.
And people wonder why competitive players have a reputation for embarrassingly large egos. I just can't understand why someone might get that impression.
Seriously guys, deriding someone for 'only' having 175 hours played? Stop that.
He wasn't, he was wondering why someone would say that pick up groups aren't any more skilled than public groups, when anyone who has participated in both knows there is a huge skill divide between the two. I have over 200 hours played, but only about 30 in game, because I spend so much time learning the maps and mechanics in the training sim. Yet I can play to a decent standard if you put me in a PuG. In pub play though, I get humped because I have so many unreliable teammates.
So yeah, between pug and pub playl, there is a world of difference, in communication, coordination, teamwork, skill, tactics and strategy. Anyone who thinks there is no difference has never been in a pug, sorry to say.
And as for egos, comp players have earned the right to know what they are talking about, pub players with big egos haven't. Again, there is a world of difference between the two.
"Pugs" are not necessarily more skilled than "pubs"
How did you manage to come to that conclusion when you have never actually participated in a pug?
For someone who only has 175 hours, you sure [air quotes] "know" [/air quotes] a lot about game balance/mechanics in ns2.
And people wonder why competitive players have a reputation for embarrassingly large egos. I just can't understand why someone might get that impression.
Seriously guys, deriding someone for 'only' having 175 hours played? Stop that.
Don't confuse low patience for incorrect claims outside of one's area of expertise for having a large ego. I wouldn't presume to tell a carpenter how to make a table just because I occasionally saw a plank in half.
Anyway, inappropriate for a moderator to derail a thread even more, although not surprising given where your prejudices lay.
@Zalamael I didn't say pugs are less skilled then pubs, I merely said they are not necessarily more skilled than pubs as certain people seem to be making the assumption that pug players are always better than pub players, which is not true. I have played since 249 I just have played less frequently but still have played enough. Also, even if people are good enough to win national tourney doesn't give people the right to treat others with disrespect or make assumptions. Now, can we PLEASE get back on topic? Arguing like this wont help anyone.
I don't know why you think fades are more useless than other lifeforms. You absolutely need them late game to even be useful. You expect lerks and oni to kill jetpackers? Lerks get 1 shot by w3 shotguns.
I usually do much better with lerk vs jp shotgun, could just be because pub but getting close enough to a jp to swipe 4 times means getting shottied 4 times as well since you have to approach each time seperately. Meanwhile the lerk can do his business from afar and often bait the shotty into emptying his clip ineffectually.
@Zalamael I didn't say pugs are less skilled then pubs, I merely said they are not necessarily more skilled than pubs as certain people seem to be making the assumption that pug players are always better than pub players, which is not true. I have played since 249 I just have played less frequently but still have played enough. Also, even if people are good enough to win national tourney doesn't give people the right to treat others with disrespect or make assumptions. Now, can we PLEASE get back on topic? Arguing like this wont help anyone.
Sorry mate, wasn't meaning to argue or be offensive. But pub play is so awful these days, that skilled players organised themselves into Gathers so that they could avoid the really bad players, and as such pugs were formed. In a pug, everyone works together, everyone uses comms, everyone is onboard with the commander, and it is an absolute peach to be part of.
On the other hand, pub play is often antagonistic, disorganised, unpleasant and downright tedious unless you are lucky enough to pick a server with lots of decent players. As for attitudes, as Scatter put it so well, it is very presumptuous to tell a pro player how thing stand unless you are also a pro player.
Anyhow, you are quite right sir, back on topic. I still think Fades have a solid place in the meta, killing random Marines is a bonus, but the good ones go for the JP + SG Marines (as they are best suited to it), and that is already challenging enough, I'm not sure I would want it to be any harder considering how easy it is to play JP + SG Marine.
@Zalamael I didn't say pugs are less skilled then pubs, I merely said they are not necessarily more skilled than pubs as certain people seem to be making the assumption that pug players are always better than pub players, which is not true. I have played since 249 I just have played less frequently but still have played enough. Also, even if people are good enough to win national tourney doesn't give people the right to treat others with disrespect or make assumptions. Now, can we PLEASE get back on topic? Arguing like this wont help anyone.
Sorry mate, wasn't meaning to argue or be offensive...
I appreciate your mature-ness in this matter. However, it seems to me that shotguns are actually the fades worst enemy (they can kill jp as long as there is only 1 or 2 marines, and rifles good at getting them when they run). They seem to be better at killing more vulnerable marines such as ones who are welding stuff and ones with flamers or gl (however, if marines manage to score few lucky gl shots, it can take down the fade). Sorry for any misconceptions on the fade being harder as for some people it may be easier as there would be better skill-scaling (not sure if that's a word though, im not always good at explaining what's on my mind).
PS: The Crack Miata gaming server has good admins and they tend to have good enough skill. Unfortunately, the server is often full.
I find most of the fades abilities either redundant, or more trouble than theyre worth. Fade ends up being almost completely about blink and swipe, everything else feels like periphery nonsense. The fact that all those other abilities come out so late also does not do them any favours.
Hmm, I just got an idea. How about making blink used for movement (and some escape) while shadow step becomes a tele or make it do large, high-energy leaps? Or like I said it could just be blink as tele and shadowstep for movement. Im just throwing ideas here.
Hmm, I just got an idea. How about making blink used for movement (and some escape) while shadow step becomes a tele or make it do large, high-energy leaps? Or like I said it could just be blink as tele and shadowstep for movement. Im just throwing ideas here.
Everything you've posted is just change for the sake of change. Why does fade need to be changed at all?
Comments
Hmm, do you mean I should play competitive games? My definition of competitive is tournament and my definition of pub is just to play and have fun. I do not like tourneys nor do I for the sake of winning, I play for fun. Of course if you aren't suggesting I play tournaments please say so. I have played against "skilled" marines (and there are not too many tbh) and I still usually don't find it hard to kill considerably more res-worth than I spend on the lerk.
But hey, we are talking about fades here and not lerks right?
On a side note, a fade's job is just as important as a skulk or lerk that bites res, but in a different sense. A fade's main job is to respond to marine aggression before onos pop and deny recappers. Once a skulk or lerk destroy a res node, it's the fade's job to kill any recappers before they get a node up. Do you see that pubs, usually not. In pugs or comp play? Always.
Most teams send one marine to recap a node. Fade kills recapper. Comm sends one marine again to recap node. Fade kills recapper again. Comm sends two marines to recap node, which in turn forces a lane open as there aren't enough marines to properly lane block, thus giving aliens an opening to push to another area or, get this, destroy more nodes which in turn the fade, again, denies. Lather, rinse, repeat.
So, as you can see, fades are very useful. Upgrades? Nah. Don't really need them. Fades are fine without ups. I'd be happy with the aliens' comm spending that 35 res elsewhere.
I meant against highly skilled players. In my experience (and I mean no offense in saying this) Euro players are far more skilled than American players are, but American servers tend to have far more people using mics and coordinating their pushes, which doesn't happen enough on Euro servers. Playing as a Lerk against skilled Marines is very hazardous, but satisfies the high risk/high reward playstyle.
But yes, you are right, this topic is about Fades. I am not really the best person to talk about Fade play, as I suck pretty badly as Fade (poor energy management combined with lack of practice, really should get my arse onto a Combat server and learn to play it properly). But I still believe with the exception of Vortex and Stab, Fades have their place in the game. Aside from leaping Skulks (unreliable) and Lerks (flimsy) Fades have their place as they are good for taking out JP + SG Marines.
Saw your name earlier in game on the Vexta high skill server (I didn't play, was merely browsing the server details). Not sure if I fit the requirements, but I might well come and have a go, would be nice to play matches with 2 solid teams. Are the matches on that server any good?
Ah, might not have been, but I'm pretty certain it had the cap X in the middle. Thanks for the offer, but I'm still an NS2 noob at the moment (although I usually tend to be pretty good at shooters once I get used to playing them) so I will probably need a bit more practice, especially on my Lifeform skills
I could of sworn pulse grenades sapped energy. Maybe it should? Or maybe cause slows?
Also, fading against a group of 5 marines will obviously get you killed because you're extremely outnumbered. A good player does not get himself into that kind of situation.
How many hrs in NS2 do you have OP?
You say fade should be harder to play and are less useful than lerks and lerks are better jet killers but contrary to popular belief, lerks melt/render themselves useless in close quarter combat most of the time jets come out. Fades are the best counter to jets because a good marine will just stay out of spiking site of a lerk and close distance. Fades can flank jetters and if they fail, they can try again... I do it very often in pubs, pugs, comp games. Im not going to go over what fades are meant for because Nexus covered that and for the new skill implementations you've suggested, the current blink and shadowstep are fine... The fade has gone through multiple stages of reformation and it seems as if the public is still learning the current meta fade. I doubt devs would want to change it again.
People still haven't figured out how to incorporate shadowstep into their fades too and to ask for the fade to be "harder" is like drifting a car and asking for it to be harder when you have no knowledge of downshifting. I have vids of fading if you want to see what its like from a decent fade perspective.
P.S. Vortex is shit.
First, just in case some of you might be confused:
Pugs: Stands for "Pick Up Games" meaning you organize a casual/competitive match via teamspeak, steam, or the like
Pubs: Stands for "Public Games" and is basically any open server.
Competitive: Except in the case of pugs (where you would just call it a pug obv), competitive matches are when you play mainly for ranking high on the leaderboards or to get money.
How did you manage to come to that conclusion when you have never actually participated in a pug?
For someone who only has 175 hours, you sure [air quotes] "know" [/air quotes] a lot about game balance/mechanics in ns2.
And people wonder why competitive players have a reputation for embarrassingly large egos. I just can't understand why someone might get that impression.
Seriously guys, deriding someone for 'only' having 175 hours played? Stop that.
He wasn't, he was wondering why someone would say that pick up groups aren't any more skilled than public groups, when anyone who has participated in both knows there is a huge skill divide between the two. I have over 200 hours played, but only about 30 in game, because I spend so much time learning the maps and mechanics in the training sim. Yet I can play to a decent standard if you put me in a PuG. In pub play though, I get humped because I have so many unreliable teammates.
So yeah, between pug and pub playl, there is a world of difference, in communication, coordination, teamwork, skill, tactics and strategy. Anyone who thinks there is no difference has never been in a pug, sorry to say.
And as for egos, comp players have earned the right to know what they are talking about, pub players with big egos haven't. Again, there is a world of difference between the two.
Don't confuse low patience for incorrect claims outside of one's area of expertise for having a large ego. I wouldn't presume to tell a carpenter how to make a table just because I occasionally saw a plank in half.
Anyway, inappropriate for a moderator to derail a thread even more, although not surprising given where your prejudices lay.
I usually do much better with lerk vs jp shotgun, could just be because pub but getting close enough to a jp to swipe 4 times means getting shottied 4 times as well since you have to approach each time seperately. Meanwhile the lerk can do his business from afar and often bait the shotty into emptying his clip ineffectually.
Sorry mate, wasn't meaning to argue or be offensive. But pub play is so awful these days, that skilled players organised themselves into Gathers so that they could avoid the really bad players, and as such pugs were formed. In a pug, everyone works together, everyone uses comms, everyone is onboard with the commander, and it is an absolute peach to be part of.
On the other hand, pub play is often antagonistic, disorganised, unpleasant and downright tedious unless you are lucky enough to pick a server with lots of decent players. As for attitudes, as Scatter put it so well, it is very presumptuous to tell a pro player how thing stand unless you are also a pro player.
Anyhow, you are quite right sir, back on topic. I still think Fades have a solid place in the meta, killing random Marines is a bonus, but the good ones go for the JP + SG Marines (as they are best suited to it), and that is already challenging enough, I'm not sure I would want it to be any harder considering how easy it is to play JP + SG Marine.
I appreciate your mature-ness in this matter. However, it seems to me that shotguns are actually the fades worst enemy (they can kill jp as long as there is only 1 or 2 marines, and rifles good at getting them when they run). They seem to be better at killing more vulnerable marines such as ones who are welding stuff and ones with flamers or gl (however, if marines manage to score few lucky gl shots, it can take down the fade). Sorry for any misconceptions on the fade being harder as for some people it may be easier as there would be better skill-scaling (not sure if that's a word though, im not always good at explaining what's on my mind).
PS: The Crack Miata gaming server has good admins and they tend to have good enough skill. Unfortunately, the server is often full.
Everything you've posted is just change for the sake of change. Why does fade need to be changed at all?