Any plans for AMD Mantle support?

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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    Great post. Well thought out. I wish I had more like it.

    On mantle and consoles. Mantle is not developed for consoles but for PC's. Mantle will not be used on consoles. Source.

    Mantle gives the most gains to those who are held back by their cpu's. Almost all amd cpu owners would not have a performance problems if using mantle. This might be usefull in a game like ns2. My argument against mantle it is still beta. Let it mature. To be analogous, I wouldn't want to start baking a cake to find out there is no party if I was UWE.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    uke wrote: »
    So im starting a fresh new thread on it asking for Mantle support.

    I'm for Mantle support as i belong to the minority sticking to amd which is ~33% as a number but still thousands of people who would benefit of it.
    Not just because they get performance improvements also because they could save money instead of getting new hardware for 200-400$ (which is times the people considering an upgrade quite a bit of money).
    I'd rather spend my money directly on supporting UWE instead of getting myself some new parts thats cheaper for me and better for UWE. At this point the nvidia faction would also benefit.
    Furthermore they will benefit from the publicity being one of the first games implementing it which will also be -you guessed it- benefitial for all of us.

    I did just test Mantle with Oxides stress test and it looks really promising as it looks similar to the lategame performance drops in NS2.

    As from what i read it looks like a bit envy from your posts denying(no offense) us mantle support if its not that much effort to implement i mean they also implemented dx9,dx11 and opengl, where opengl could have done the job for all of us and save the devs time on implementing those other things. I think at least trying to implement it a soon its usable would be a fair trade.

    ---

    Concluding the main arguments* from the old thread:

    -Not worth the time and effort. [1][1.1][2]
    As i said people would save money which instead they can spend directly in the reinforcement program for instance and it is good publicity for NS2 and UWE. But not mentioned is the most important aspect(for me at least) it improves the playability and fun for all because with low fps you cant hit anything and on the other side your enemies wont get weak with decreasing performance if it could be fixed with Mantle. In numbers it could enhance the game by potential 33%(the AMD users and ofc not everyone can enable Mantle of them but as i said not only they profit of it)

    -Mantle would only be worth if the Spark engine would be developed for the new consoles. [3][4]
    [and some more i think]
    I'd agree if Mantle would only be provided to Console users but mantle is also available for PC.

    -Don't need it because I'm nvidia user.[2]
    Makes me a bit sad as it's a kind of egoism and makes me having my thoery of your envy.
    lwf wrote: »
    Let us at least wait until the first game with Mantle support and the first graphics card with Mantle support is out...
    (knowing about the age of the post)
    -supports HD 7xxx and the R9 series
    -BF4 >40% better performance (its not the only video proving it)
    HeatSurge wrote: »
    [...]
    I'm sad CUDA and ShysiX haven't disappeared yet. And I've had nvidia cards for 5+ years. CUDA and ShysiX add NOTHING that couldn't have been done with OpenCL, except exclusivity and probably some SDK tools.
    -CUDA are stream processors and amd also got stream processors - just not calling them CUDA
    -and physx seems to me like its programmed to run bad(if it runs) on anything else than nvidia because after a patch for borderlands 2 i could use them with my AMD card

    [1][1.1]: Ghosthree3
    [2]: BeigeAlert
    [3]: SmashIT
    [4]: GhoulofGSG9

    tl;dr:
    Read it. If it doesn't interest you are on the wrong thread!

    Also check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)

    *as far i cought them

    It's not a simple matter for UWE to just add it in... there's no "mantle support" checkbox that they can just flip on. Yes, they implemented dx11 and opengl, and that took a heck of a lot of time and effort on their part (which I applaud), not to mention that they did this long after the game had shipped. Also, these updates benefited ALL graphics card vendors, not just 33% (as you quoted). I don't know how much time and testing it would take to implement mantle... but unless it's something that can benefit all users (which it isn't), I don't imagine it's very high up on their list of priorities. They're a small company, they have to pick their battles very carefully.

    Also, I don't know where you got the idea that suddenly every AMD owner is going to flock to this game just because of mantle support. Yea, it'll probably bring in a few more, but I doubt it would be as many as opengl did with linux support.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    The problem is, as stated in the other thread, is that NS2 is largely CPU bound. The problem with that and Mantle is that its CPU bound on the game logic, not the CPU overhead from the render. Mantle would do absolutely nothing to speed up the game logic, which 9 times out of 10 is most likely the most limiting in terms of FPS.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    There is a simple answer to this. Give UWE 100,000 dollars to fund mantle support. Otherwise, you're out of luck.
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Isn't Mantle only in Beta release right now? Also, some early benchmarks have shown some, although minor, CPU improvements. I think in order to receive the full benefit of Mantle you'd have to bite the bullet and buy the larger AAA titles from publishers like EA with the budget to support and troubleshoot Mantle API optimizations. I doubt any indie developer would have the capability to add it to their game.
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    edited February 2014
    @james888: of cause not the beta one (or maybe for a beta build or testing purposes)

    @BeigeAlert: i know it would be some effort but measured by effort/gain i think opengl for linux users had affected even less people than mantle would do if i consider that linux users are less than 5% (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems ; http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey#cat9)

    Dont get me wrong i dont want to be disgraceful about theit time and work. With due respect i think if they can do this they also could take MAntle into account.

    @xDragon: i dont exactly know how this works but according to the testvideo i posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHaYjVJaQqE - not only proven by this one) it doesnt seem that it only affects mid to low-end cpus

    coolitic wrote: »
    There is a simple answer to this. Give UWE 100,000 dollars to fund mantle support. Otherwise, you're out of luck.
    thank you for that wise contribution -.-

    Also i doubt that the guy who makes levels is the lead programmer who can implement this.
    (thought i read somewhere in the old thread the assertion that we're not gonna see more levels if this happens - just to clarify that)
    NeXuS wrote: »
    Isn't Mantle only in Beta release right now? Also, some early benchmarks have shown some, although minor, CPU improvements. I think in order to receive the full benefit of Mantle you'd have to bite the bullet and buy the larger AAA titles from publishers like EA with the budget to support and troubleshoot Mantle API optimizations. I doubt any indie developer would have the capability to add it to their game.
    i dont think their programmers are dumber than EAs they just got more which means they can do it faster. they already implemented dx11 and opengl i think it would be quite similar which also means it's not an unknown challenge
    its AMD which made the new apu and not UWE. UWE has to implement it. i doubt it would be good for amd if they made it an horrendous challenge to implement it
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited February 2014
    The layout of the OP is sexy as fuck... Also I stand by what I said, its effort:benefit ratio is just not good enough.

    EDIT: Well it's not the OP any more...
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    uke wrote: »
    i dont think their programmers are dumber than EAs they just got more which means they can do it faster. they already implemented dx11 and opengl i think it would be quite similar which also means it's not an unknown challenge
    its AMD which made the new apu and not UWE. UWE has to implement it. i doubt it would be good for amd if they made it an horrendous challenge to implement it
    I'm not not saying the programmers are dumber than EA's lol. Perhaps I should have elaborated more in my post. I meant exactly what you said. Indie developers don't have the huge budget to dedicate a team whose only job is to optimize the game for Mantle that more mainstream publishers have. It would take a lot of time and money to add Mantle support and with SN being worked on as well as NS2, I doubt they dedicate a few people for it.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to post this as a new thread.

    *Merged*

    However it is a well written and comprehensive post.
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    Mouse wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to post this as a new thread.

    *Merged*

    However it is a well written and comprehensive post.

    IronHorse wrote: »
    NeXuS wrote: »
    Yes. Make a new thread, instead of necroing an old post where some users may not still be active. And btw, that is not the correct use of the abuse flag. FYI
    ^ Exactly what this man said, he's correct on both counts. The previous poster called both responses stupid, yet you flag the individual explaining to him?

    But since we're here:
    Mantle isn't even released on any game yet (let alone BF4), so maybe we should wait for practical benchmarks from the public before even discussing it at all.
  • OuchOfDeathOuchOfDeath Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182825Members
    I did not read all 6 pages but I read about half, and I saw no mention of the fact that Mantle doesn't support all AMD hardware. Mantle only supports Radeon 7000 series and up. I think Mantle would be a great way to lower the completely absurd CPU requirements of this game, but most people would not be able to make use of it today. It wouldn't be anywhere near the 35% or so of users that Steam shows using AMD GPUs. 7000 and up is a minority right now.
  • Dictator93Dictator93 Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    IMO, supporting mantle does not make so much sense because recent Open GL development has offered similar speed ups on the CPU side.

    Mantle is obviously even lower than open GL; but its current AMD exclusivity makes it hard to recommend to a smaller studio like UWE.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    uke wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to post this as a new thread.

    *Merged*

    However it is a well written and comprehensive post.

    IronHorse wrote: »
    NeXuS wrote: »
    Yes. Make a new thread, instead of necroing an old post where some users may not still be active. And btw, that is not the correct use of the abuse flag. FYI
    ^ Exactly what this man said, he's correct on both counts. The previous poster called both responses stupid, yet you flag the individual explaining to him?

    But since we're here:
    Mantle isn't even released on any game yet (let alone BF4), so maybe we should wait for practical benchmarks from the public before even discussing it at all.

    Fair enough. However as conversation had already continued well beyond that post by the time you made your thread, I'll keep the threads merged.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    uhhh did you seriously link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHaYjVJaQqE as relevant???? Did you even watch that video???? If you actually believe that is real... well then I have nothing further to say.

    EVEN if it did matter, performance in a game is the sum of many parts. Why mantle could speed up the render and allow them to add additional post processing effects, it wouldn't speed up the game logic which is and probably always will be what makes NS2's CPU requirements so high.

    Putting higher octane gas in your car doesnt generally make it any faster.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited February 2014
    2 Things:

    1 - Mantle only currently supports GCN 1.1 Architecture - Read R9 290 and R7 260. Eventually they hope to support GCN 1.0 architecture. HD7xxx and rest of Rx2xx series.

    2 - How many man hours do you think this would take to implement into the game? Times this number of hours by the wages/hr of Max, and you have a fairly significant sum of money one would guess, without extra charges - Electric etc. Can you guarantee adding Mantle support would bring in enough 'new' NS2 players to cover the cost of the upgrade?

    Don't forget, the players who are already here have already bought the game, as it is currently such a niche system, it needs to be financially viable.

    Having read a huge number of reviews and previews and even AMD official literature, Mantle doesn't seem like it will finish beta before NS2 is a long forgotten game. As I said before, maybe for UWE's next Spark based game, but it just isn't worth it with NS2.

    Oh and also, I am still waiting for them to properly finish implementing DX11 and OpenGL. I expect those to be implementations to be fixed and finished before they even think about adding Mantle.
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    @xDragon: uh just noticed its fake; thought hes rendering less gpu intensive environment... anyways i dont see how this invalidates any of my arguments

    got a better one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los and more and better will get uploaded
    or get yourself the oxide stress test and test it yourself i got way better performance so this fuel obviously has some nos

    @OuchOfDeath: did point that out

    @Dictator93: big enough to support linux while minority runs it
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    uke wrote: »
    got a better one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los and more and better will get uploaded
    or get yourself the oxide stress test and test it yourself i got way better performance so this fuel obviously has some nos

    You can't compare that benchmark to ns2. Very different circumstances. The point dragon is making, and I see as clear, is that mantle can't remove the bottleneck that ns2 has.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    Gah its like that point just goes right through people.. I have tested removing basically every single particle/post processing effect from NS2, along with down sampling of the textures to Super Mario levels, and still had FPS drops.. Generally speaking the render of Spark is actually quite fast, its mostly game logic which slows you down, and Mantle cannot provide any benefits to that.
  • RejZoRRejZoR Slovenia Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188450Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Why do people think it's so horribly hard to add Mantle to the game? It's just an API and while it requires work, it's a one time thing. It doesn't have to be constantly developed and added to the game like certain special efects that require changing every map every time. Plus, the game already has API switching available (DX9, DX11 and OGL). It would again be much harder if it only had DX9 and nothing else. So things to change API's is already in place.

    For example, why they bothered adding DX11 where i can't notice a single benefit from it (i just use it because i have DX11 capable card and thought why not)? I don't see any higher framerate or any better effects with it. Yet they "wasted" time adding it. Or OGL, which is so horribly slow it's completely useless. But ok, they have it for Linux. So, why not Mantle which provenly boosts performance across ALL configurations. There are boosts even on lhigher end configurations. Plus, now it's the time to promote your game through that. It would be among the first games to use Mantle. You will spend some time on it but you can also take some advantage of it through promotion. Imagine Natural Selection 2 being mentioned along Battlefiled 4 when it comes to Mantle. It has a potential on 2 fronts (performance and advertising the game) but if you just blindly dismiss it, then you'll never know...
  • HamletHamlet Join Date: 2008-08-17 Member: 64837Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    Fresh out:
    Interview with AMD's Guennadi Riguer, Mantle Chief Architect

    Extensive Mantle benchmarks:
    AMD Mantle im Test mit Battlefield 4 (www.pcgameshardware.de)

    Most surprising bench:
    Hz8NJVs.png
    Get this: An old Phenom II X4 @ Mantle (55fps) is as fast as an i7-3770K @ DirectX (56fps)!
    I'd definitely like to see Mantle for Natural Selection 2.
    Well, one can dream...


    Edit: Links fixed
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    just noticed its fake(thought he has such high fps because id didnt seem like hes rendering a gpu intensive scenery anyways) but i dont see any point why it should invalidate my arguments

    anyways i got a better one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXI1pn5los
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    edited February 2014
    here for you, who are interested in some raw data:
    http://steamcommunity.com/app/267130/discussions/0/558746994946730938/#p3

    interesting part for me is that it doesnt make much of a difference whether my cpu is intel or amd(in terms that it wont work with intel), also better cpu = more frames (for those who meant that it could sqeeze some fps out of the old cpu's which it does but also from new ones)

    btw its much easier to compare those data if you search for a keyword(in chrome they get highlighted) and compare the entries with the same graphics card(in my case)

    P.S. sry for the double post but nobody would read it if i just edited my last post
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    We need devs and we need them now. This shit is too good to slip by.
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    could also make a chart how ns2 could benefit form it...
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    @uke, you still haven't answered any of my questions asked of you in this thread, although the only one I really want you to answer is this one -
    How many man hours do you think this would take to implement into the game? Times this number of hours by the wages of Max, and you have a fairly significant sum of money one would guess, without extra charges - Electric etc. Can you guarantee adding Mantle support would bring in enough 'new' NS2 players to cover the cost of the upgrade?

    Don't forget, the players who are already here have already bought the game, as it is currently such a niche system, it needs to be financially viable. UWE are a indie developer, not EA remember.

    Also, remember DX11 and OpenGL are still in BETA in this engine, and it is more important they get fixed first, as OpenGL brought in thousands of Linux players, who currently can't play the game properly. That was an API addition financially worthwhile, I doubt Mantle would be.
  • HamletHamlet Join Date: 2008-08-17 Member: 64837Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    Almost twice the fps with Mantle, boosting the experience on an old Phenom II X4 3.2GHz from OK with occasional hangers (32fps) to sexy fluid (55fps)?
    I'll take that every day, thank you:
    09apEsJ.png
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited February 2014
    I don't think you know what almost twice means. What you mean is a third.

    EDIT: Also this is in BF4, NOT ns2. As has been pointed out, for ns2 this won't help because of the reason for the bottleneck.
  • ukeuke Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185840Members
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    @uke, you still haven't answered any of my questions asked of you in this thread, although the only one I really want you to answer is this one -
    How many man hours do you think this would take to implement into the game? Times this number of hours by the wages of Max, and you have a fairly significant sum of money one would guess, without extra charges - Electric etc. Can you guarantee adding Mantle support would bring in enough 'new' NS2 players to cover the cost of the upgrade?

    Don't forget, the players who are already here have already bought the game, as it is currently such a niche system, it needs to be financially viable. UWE are a indie developer, not EA remember.

    Also, remember DX11 and OpenGL are still in BETA in this engine, and it is more important they get fixed first, as OpenGL brought in thousands of Linux players, who currently can't play the game properly. That was an API addition financially worthwhile, I doubt Mantle would be.

    sry missed that one
    and of cause i cant guarantee that; as you cant guarantee the opposite
    but they already got a system to switch between dx9,11 and opengl shouldnt be as difficult and time consuming as doing it all from the ground up

    also what i already wrote to this subject
    As from what i read it looks like a bit envy from your posts denying(no offense) us mantle support if its not that much effort to implement i mean they also implemented dx9,dx11 and opengl, where opengl could have done the job for all of us and save the devs time on implementing those other things. I think at least trying to implement it a soon its usable would be a fair trade.

    and
    @BeigeAlert: i know it would be some effort but measured by effort/gain i think opengl for linux users had affected even less people than mantle would do if i consider that linux users are less than 5% (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems ; http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey#cat9)
    Dont get me wrong i dont want to be disgraceful about theit time and work. With due respect i think if they can do this they also could take MAntle into account.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    The main point of all this is that the performance gain would be almost 0.. I understand you see all these shiny fancy benchmarks on sites testing BF4.. But that game is completely different and is not NS2... You cannot just assume because you get a 75% FPS increase in BF4 that you would get the same in NS2... People that have a much greater understanding on how NS2's Spark engine works have already explained why that would be the case. Unless you care to explain how you can say that NS2 would benefit from Mantle on a technical level, I dont think there is any weight to the claims of doubling the FPS for low end computers.
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