Alien Research Tree, Would a slight rebalance improve the game?
CyberKun
Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Hello! I am making this post due to the title.
Anyways, my issue with this game currently is the massive difference in amount of time/cost it takes to upgrade the Marines compared to the Aliens. This leads to a lack of options in the Alien tech tree.
It is entirely possible for Marines to research Jetpacks, a higher tier tech, in 10+30+40+25=105 res and 220 seconds. Obviously this is not done in the start of the game, but it is more showing just how fast the similar upgrades to Aliens are. Leap itself will cost the 40+20+20+10+20=110 res and 225 seconds assuming the Whip is built and upgraded to Skulk while the Hive is building. This is Marine end game tech being faster than Alien tech. It is not even end game tech, as Flamers/GL's can be out as they only require a 30 res investment and that changes Marine play, and nothing Aliens do can really compare. I do understand that Aliens will have more map control and tend to have more resources. My issue is more with the Alien tree taking so much longer to research in general along with being much more costly to replace.
Now this should be stated that I don't think the game is unbalanced as it is not obviously the case. I feel like the Aliens are winning in general more to just having strong default lifeforms without these upgrades, and the fact that the damage doesn't (or need to) scale on Biomass is part of the reason it is this way. I am trying to think if the game could be improved by changing the values to make Aliens slightly more dependent on research, but then decreased research time. The only real choice to have with the Aliens is what research path to go (this works out almost well, Shade is a little sad but that is a different topic) and how long should the Shells/Spurs be delayed to allow for base expansion. I am not even sure that is more than an annoyance that I have, but I figured it would be fun to have a discussion about it.
I also admit I have not been following competitive games for some time, and if this is all needed on comp side, ignore this post like the pub trash it is. When I say that part, I mean this. I am not saying that Aliens are OP/UP, I am saying that I am wondering if a slightly changed research tree number wise would improve the gameplay but the research tree is needed as it. I am not talking about winrate.
Anyways, my issue with this game currently is the massive difference in amount of time/cost it takes to upgrade the Marines compared to the Aliens. This leads to a lack of options in the Alien tech tree.
It is entirely possible for Marines to research Jetpacks, a higher tier tech, in 10+30+40+25=105 res and 220 seconds. Obviously this is not done in the start of the game, but it is more showing just how fast the similar upgrades to Aliens are. Leap itself will cost the 40+20+20+10+20=110 res and 225 seconds assuming the Whip is built and upgraded to Skulk while the Hive is building. This is Marine end game tech being faster than Alien tech. It is not even end game tech, as Flamers/GL's can be out as they only require a 30 res investment and that changes Marine play, and nothing Aliens do can really compare. I do understand that Aliens will have more map control and tend to have more resources. My issue is more with the Alien tree taking so much longer to research in general along with being much more costly to replace.
Now this should be stated that I don't think the game is unbalanced as it is not obviously the case. I feel like the Aliens are winning in general more to just having strong default lifeforms without these upgrades, and the fact that the damage doesn't (or need to) scale on Biomass is part of the reason it is this way. I am trying to think if the game could be improved by changing the values to make Aliens slightly more dependent on research, but then decreased research time. The only real choice to have with the Aliens is what research path to go (this works out almost well, Shade is a little sad but that is a different topic) and how long should the Shells/Spurs be delayed to allow for base expansion. I am not even sure that is more than an annoyance that I have, but I figured it would be fun to have a discussion about it.
I also admit I have not been following competitive games for some time, and if this is all needed on comp side, ignore this post like the pub trash it is. When I say that part, I mean this. I am not saying that Aliens are OP/UP, I am saying that I am wondering if a slightly changed research tree number wise would improve the gameplay but the research tree is needed as it. I am not talking about winrate.
Comments
I have suggested though that biomass be reworked to better scale in this thread.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133222/biomass-scaling-suggestion?new=1
Where I do agree is that the biomass system seems very linear and doesn't, IMO, give the alien commander sufficient strategic depth. Combined with the low cost of whips (covered in another topic), this makes things a little stale just at the moment.
I tend to disagree. Mid-game, kham have to manage his ressources between 2nd upgrade x3, building forward base (sorry, forward *whips), getting lifeform evolution...
And you could also have alien end-game tech very quickly. Onos upgrade cost bio1+crag+evo= 65 TRES
it just will be totally useless because you don't have an onos at this time
@Desther You don't see Fade upgrade because it's the less needed upgrade now
Whereas pre-balance mod, it unlocked blink, the most needed (with BB).
20+min Leap = bad com. Should be obvious in the first few min., so should be an easy eject.
Fade upgrades in NS1 were far more useful but it could also be argued that they were too powerful
2 out of 3 fade ups are pretty bad. Shadow step is godly.
The reason is more like the other lifeform upgrades are significantly better.
So, what sort of upgrades do you think the fade should have?
I only think this due to the 2 Shotgun hits and some change it takes to kill a fade, and how slow they blink.
Acid Rocket would let them harass, then go in for the kill, while metabolize would let them hit and run more effectively with a faster recovery from damage.
Either one would be great, both might be too much though.
Either one could replace Stab, and if vortex is reverted, Fade would be in an amazing place imo.
@Benson It's this part that has me pondering. By default, the fade is a glass cannon. The main thing I'm wondering is whether there's a selection of upgrades that would allow the upgraded fade to fulfil a different role. Also, what should that role should be.
To me, it looks like lifeform upgrades make the lifeform preform the same function, only better and in a different way.
Skulks become better at general combat, and able to close distances easier with leap (xeno is kind of a gimick)
Gorges become structure specialists, both building and destroying with bilebomb
Lerks become even better ranged support with spores and umbra in addition to spikes
Onos becomes a better tank/disruptor with boneshield and stomp
Fades are the only one that have abilities that don't make its role better. Shadowstep is the only one, as it makes the fade even more elusive, however stab and vortex are out of place for a hit and run assassin. Following the trend of the other lifeforms, the fade should have upgrades that enhance it's original role, such as metabolize.
Honestly, I always wanted Vortex to allow the fade to teleport a marine and/or itself to a different location, similar to how the current vortex works, only when the fade lands the hit, it moves the marine and/or itself back to the vortex. This would be good for literally dissecting squads one piece at a time. And if Stab was replaced with Metabolize, hit and run would become much more efficient. Both of these methods would enhance the Fade's role and change it's playstyle
Anyway, thats just my dream fade and my take on how upgrades should work.
On Topic: I think the only change that the alien tech tree needs to have the ability researches removed from support structures, even if the structure itself is required to begin the research (except whips, base lifeform upgradesshouldn't need any requirements but Tres and biomass)
IDK where you've been since they buffed it, but xeno ends games... at least in pubs. Even an average skulk can kill someone pretty decent with a jetpack... by just jumping at them (lol?). No aiming required :-) . Nevermind what xeno does to attempts at hive rushes or "turtling." I think it's stupidly OP; IMO it should lose potency in a straight line with the health of the skulk exploding.
IMO they're not "out of place," just feel "off." Stab, for one, needs to be a lot more powerful than now I think. Then again, that would make already amazing fades even more unstoppable... :-P
I agree with this 100%. In fact, when they were changing it, that's exactly the kind of implementation I was hoping it would be (casting vortex on something enables you to "1v1" them in a "shadow world" for a few seconds. When I saw what the implementation was changed to I was like... ehhhhh, useless.
Then again, I play lerk exclusively these days... and have been for months now *shrug*. Might as well abuse the OPness that's left in the game (bite speed increase... why?!).