1.04b Impressions
geldonyetich
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Based on having actually tried a beta..</div> Played around on 1.04b for a few games. Perhaps not really enough to form an informed assessment, but so far my impression is thus:
Aliens still have a fundamental advantage in that those Fades are pretty nasty. They haven't gotten much weaker from 1.03. In one game my entire team of marines was pretty much salughtered by an entire team of fade/lerks. We had full weapon/armor upgrades, a few grenade launchers and HMG. However, it just wasn't enough. It took a little longer than usual, but the Aliens were able to remove some of our remote turret emplacements. Perhaps if we had brought in more jetpacks and heavy armor the tide may have turned.
Thus, the rules of the game are the same: Take two hives before the aliens do, or lose. However, it is a bit harder for the marines to rush hives using phase gate tactics since phase gates cost a little more and skulks can kill them faster. My team nonetheless managed to lock down two hives, but unfortunately the com didn't notice that one of the hives had it's turret defences taken out. That's why we ended up taking on fades.
The good news for the Marines is that balance on the battlefield has been bumped just a bit towards Marines. Marines seem just a bit better at holding what they have. The acid rockets still hurt, but their missed shots don't damage you as easily - I've done pretty good exchanging fire pistol versus acid rocket at long range, although the fade is too durable to be easily taken down this way. Grenade Launchers are scoring more kills than they were before, but of course they're not good for close up fights so you can't use them to defend effectively when the aliens rush. Which, since the acid rockets aren't quite as effective, the aliens did alot. I went down to fade claws more time than I want to remember.
So far in the games I have been in I noticed the Aliens seem to have a big resource advantage. In the first game I was in there was some Marines saying that they think the aliens might have been exploiting. However, in the Alien game I played I didn't notice any faster resource income than normal. Nonetheless, I seemed to be running into more offencive chambers than usual.
Overall assessment so far: A definate improvement (especially having to use phase gates). Not perfect, but then, what is? I think we'll see some more interesting games as a result of 1.04's changes, but Fades still seem a little overpowered to me.
Aliens still have a fundamental advantage in that those Fades are pretty nasty. They haven't gotten much weaker from 1.03. In one game my entire team of marines was pretty much salughtered by an entire team of fade/lerks. We had full weapon/armor upgrades, a few grenade launchers and HMG. However, it just wasn't enough. It took a little longer than usual, but the Aliens were able to remove some of our remote turret emplacements. Perhaps if we had brought in more jetpacks and heavy armor the tide may have turned.
Thus, the rules of the game are the same: Take two hives before the aliens do, or lose. However, it is a bit harder for the marines to rush hives using phase gate tactics since phase gates cost a little more and skulks can kill them faster. My team nonetheless managed to lock down two hives, but unfortunately the com didn't notice that one of the hives had it's turret defences taken out. That's why we ended up taking on fades.
The good news for the Marines is that balance on the battlefield has been bumped just a bit towards Marines. Marines seem just a bit better at holding what they have. The acid rockets still hurt, but their missed shots don't damage you as easily - I've done pretty good exchanging fire pistol versus acid rocket at long range, although the fade is too durable to be easily taken down this way. Grenade Launchers are scoring more kills than they were before, but of course they're not good for close up fights so you can't use them to defend effectively when the aliens rush. Which, since the acid rockets aren't quite as effective, the aliens did alot. I went down to fade claws more time than I want to remember.
So far in the games I have been in I noticed the Aliens seem to have a big resource advantage. In the first game I was in there was some Marines saying that they think the aliens might have been exploiting. However, in the Alien game I played I didn't notice any faster resource income than normal. Nonetheless, I seemed to be running into more offencive chambers than usual.
Overall assessment so far: A definate improvement (especially having to use phase gates). Not perfect, but then, what is? I think we'll see some more interesting games as a result of 1.04's changes, but Fades still seem a little overpowered to me.
Comments
Can this be addressed? Or that supposed to be like that?
Your right though, the minimap doesn't seem to update much at all. This is probably a known missing feature.
Basically, the "two-Hive game" means that Aliens only have to take over ONE position to hit their "stride" while the Marines have to capture TWO and most likely STILL hold their base unless they rush directly to a Hive and build there.
With 7 buildings and 164 resources after the game starts the Aliens are ready to end the game and win. 1 Hive + 3 Defense Chambers + 3 Movement Chambers = Fully upgraded Aliens. Then 48 resources per player to go Fade with Adren/Carapace.
Fully upgraded Marines = Armoury + Armoury Upgrade + Arms Lab + 3 Weapon Upgrades + 3 Armour Upgrades + Heavy Armour Researched + Observatory + Motion Tracking Researched. PLUS handing that out to everyone: 25 (HA) + 25 (HMG) + 10 (Welder). 60 resources per player. This also doesn't include Infantry Portals...
Basically...the upgrades for Marines cost too much and come to slow to deal with how fast the Aliens can get Fades, their only real needed "top end". The Phase Gate Rush and the Siege Rush really remain the only effective chance a Marine team has of winning. They just have a greater chance of failing now and thus dooming the Marines to lose.
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i stopped reading there
But!
When I <i>do</i> comm, I generally make a <i>point</i> of giving the aliens two hives, since it's no fun if you don't. I commed ns_caged earlier tonight. Here's what you do:
-grab one hive
-grab every single RT on the map (or as close as possible) with 1 or 2 wandering marines
-have the rest keep the aliens busy by hitting their other hive constantly
-upgrade like mad
The mid-endgame was a furious running battle of about 6 or so HA with HMGs and nades destroying their first hive, then their second, then them destroying our spawn, then us rebuilding our spawn in their first hive, then finally taking down gen (their last hive, which was the one we had grabbed in the beginning).
In other words - properly equipped HA own the bejeezus out of fades. The naders destroy the lerk or lerks and the HMG guys cut down the fades. As long as they keep welding each other and the comm keeps health/ammo spawning, a mob of HA is hard to beat.
You get that mob by grabbing res like a madman.
Nerfing sieges won't matter so much to me since they'll be what I think they should be - a defensive measure first and an offensive measure second. Hell, I never even upgraded a fac in that game. And before you say anything about skill levels, it isn't true. All the people playing on that server are average to good, and organization existed on both sides. They got gen and our spawn by using coordinated fade/lerk/gorge groups, etc.
People don't hit the marine midgame because they putter around in their spawn and their hive or hives.
-Kavasa
In that game, they HAD their 2nd hive and they HAD their fades but we TOOK IT! Come patch 1.04 I'd most likely had saved 1 set of upgrades and tried to give my men a nader to clear out with.
so its easyer for the commander
On a side note. wrong forum.
A better idea would be a small list of player names on a separate panel, coloured based on their current health level (green,yellow,red as on them now) and clicking on their name goes to that marine. This would also make locating people who don't use the radio commands easier as well, as you could just click on the appropriate marine.
this is strange, in 1.03 almost every marine side I played against had a competant commander, and the aliens would never be able to get the second hive without a fight. The marines would be right outside just as the second hive was about to go up. I can't see in 1.03 OUT OF EXPERIANCE with good commanders, how the marines are supposedly too slow to the midgame. Even with a gorge saving souly for the second hive, the marines very rarely get to the second hive any later than when that gorge is about to put it up.
Are you saying that the marines have been slowed down in 1.04?
-Lee
Also,
resources seem to flow much faster in 1.04b now. Marines are able to hit get there midgame crap much faster than before.
when ur comm and some calls for like medic pack it should show a lil sign or something on the mini map
so its easyer for the commander
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Pressing your "jump" key will immediately shift your commander view to the marine that yells for ammo or health. Sheesh!
Um, yeah... Or, what it actually does is pop you to the room there 2-3 marines are milling around, one of which called for help. With a little first aid symbol, you'd know right off who needed it.
I also like the idea of having a list of your marines on the side of the comm hud. Possibly allowing the comm to select from the names as well.
They are not.
In clan matches, marines win 90% of the time right now.
How does that make marines unfair?
It's more like that the marines are harder to play, that's all.
However, when executed properly, the marines rule.
"Okay guys, I can hear where their Hive is, so we rush there and Phase, then just overrun them with our twice-as-fast spawning."
If the timining is off on taking the second hive, you don't have enough time (mostly) to get both HA and HMG before they are all over the base and any supporting structures. Umbra is a nice 3rd hive skill, making it neccessary to get all three by either team to win.
Personally I think there is a balance issue in the turrents. They have too much health and cost too much. Lesser cost would allow for marines to grab resources easier and lessor health would allow aliens to kill them faster. This would put more back and forth back into the game. Once marines loose a small farm of turrents it is costly and time consuming to take the resource back. The offensive chambers go up much faster and tend to be more effective because a few of them can completely block marines from getting by while aliens can run by turrents while taking minimal damage (ever see skulks rush a turrents base without one near command chair?).
A nice idea for a future version might be to have some marine structures that get a portion of the resources from the pool. These structures would then give out items upon request, to free up the commander. It might be a set level or settable by the commander. Thus Ha or HMG could be simply "requested" from the sturcture if that structure has enough resources to produce one. Welders would make a good example here, and possible jetpacks.
They are not.
In clan matches, marines win 90% of the time right now.
How does that make marines unfair?
It's more like that the marines are harder to play, that's all.
However, when executed properly, the marines rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, its because clan matches you are dedicated which makes it fun, but if you go into a public server most people want to be aliens because they have more options they are basicly more fun.... While marines its.. build shoot defend shoot. See, i really think that it would make marines tons cooler if they had more options but not to where it gets really lame though
First off, fades with umbra support have been and continue to be a ridiculously effective combination. The effectiveness of umbra was reduced in 1.04, but only by about 3%. Honestly, I don't know why they bothered. What I <b>have</b> seen commanders do to counter umbra (in 1.04) is to be liberal with the grenade launchers-- to the point where the few HMGs are just on cleanup crew in case a skulk gets through.
But grenades seem to have been made a little too useful. Not only was the damage increased back to a base of 200, but since weapons upgrades now affect grenades, they effectively do 260-- a full eighty points higher than the 180 grenades were reduced to in 1.01. Why exactly the devs not only restored their earlier cuts, but heaped piles of extra damage on, I don't know. Maybe it was to provide a counter to umbra... but it counters a lot more than umbra. I've seen at least one reasonably miserable commander fight back fades by doing nothing more than throwing GLs at his players. And maybe it's my imagination, but if feels like the damage radius has increased. As a skulk I was getting repeatedly killed just standing at the end of a hallway where a combat was occuring. Does anyone know if grenades have a set radius, or does the damage just reduce by a set amount per unit of distance? In other words, did upping the damage neccesarily increase the blast radius?
I'm tempted to say that the saving grace (for the aliens) is the seige turret nerf, but I'm not sure it is. It does mean that hives last longer, but it makes combat miserable-- every time a HA marine bursts around a corner at you, there are only two options. Either you have no defenses to help you, and you're probably done for, or you have defenses, which are immediately seiged while you're next to them, and you're probably done for. Yes, it extends the game, but I'm honestly not sure if it's a nerf or a present.
~Spherical.
Um, yeah... Or, what it actually does is pop you to the room there 2-3 marines are milling around, one of which called for help. With a little first aid symbol, you'd know right off who needed it.
I also like the idea of having a list of your marines on the side of the comm hud. Possibly allowing the comm to select from the names as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
also weedkiller <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> i have the exact same thot as u
petitmorte.. nice ideas.. even when u jump u hafta check who needs health if u are being liberal wif the health packs (putting only one) and not spamming....
also...
HOW ABOUT THIS: MAKE UMBRA SEMI PERMEABLE AGAINST GL DMG... MEANING... no matter wut... GL will ALWAYS do dmg to umbra... but lets say.... the GL only does 60-75% dmg.. INSTEAD of reducing it give umbra an extra use .. THEREFORE encouraging aliens to spread out their classes! im serious.. does nyone think this would work... or perhaps configuring umbra to some certain way... along those lines...
This is hardly the case. Sufficient OC's and DC's have to be built to keep the phase rushers out of the hive, multiple Res Cmbr's also need to be built. Have you ever seen whant happens to am 8 player alien team that gets a second hive up with only 2 Res Cmbr's? Everyone sits and waits for fades and the marines just wind up siegeing a hive. The problem is generally turret happy commanders.
Also, marines suffer greatly from a lack of teamwork. IMHO it works like this: Marines need good teamwork to win, Aliens only need teamwork to beat a well coordinated Marine team. This is the problem with pubs and nothing but a shift in player attitudes will fix it.
ok 1.04b,
My only question is, grenades aren't going to be the massive building killers they once were will they? They are great for chasing away fades and killing those farting lerks, but I hope they won't be back the way they were before.
One of the intended drawbacks of umbra is that it will NOT protect from GL (or knife, etc.). If you now make it protect from GL because the GL is improperly balanced, you just enter an arms race. The answer is not to make the umbra invincible, it is to correct the GL so it is not so overpowered. Every "feature" should have some drawback, otherwise things would get way unbalanced.
One of the intended drawbacks of umbra is that it will NOT protect from GL (or knife, etc.). If you now make it protect from GL because the GL is improperly balanced, you just enter an arms race. The answer is not to make the umbra invincible, it is to correct the GL so it is not so overpowered. Every "feature" should have some drawback, otherwise things would get way unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but by making it semi permeable... only decreases dmg.....
but the aliens in umbra still RECIEVE 60-75% or wutever the value of dmg... AT LEAST 60%
this way.... aliens who dont get lerks will get fried.. and aliens wif lerks and umbra will stil get a BIT of help.. .
it encourages the use of LERKS... and not PURE fades.... therefore balancing the game in another way...
secondly, it lets us keep the current GL dmg.... without changing that... i never said make umbra invincible to knife....
nor did i say make it totally invincible to GL dmg... i jus said reduce a BIT to keep lerks in use
Pressing your "jump" key will immediately shift your commander view to the marine that yells for ammo or health. Sheesh!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what if 3 marines scream for waypoints at the same time, where do you then end up looking?
Sheesh!