I do love that someone disagreed with Dragon, when he's actually dug around in the code and knows the facts. Like how the marine and skulk acceleration variables have the same numeric values.
EDIT: Now the same (I assume) person has disagreed with me pointing out that they were an idiot for disagreeing with someone who actually digs around in what the game is made of. Internet you continue to impress me.
With these numbers you are assuming the following things:
1) The marine starts shooting at the exact same time as the first bite lands, i.e. reacts in a time of 0,00s to an ambushing skulk
2) The marine doesn't miss a single bullet
3) The skulk is bad at prediction and cannot predict where the marine is about to jump
So in effect, you're assuming that the marine has aimbot and FTL reflexes, while the skulk just sits there pressing W and M1.
*looks around, confused*
Wait.. isn't that what the entire foundation of this paper balance discussion was?
Isn't this how Charlie and NS1 PTs decided on numbers?
Isn't this the standard?
... or am i missing something?
How else do you begin calculating potential TTK for skulks if they are not already within range of doing damage? And how else would you debate without assuming equal timings with both firing at the same time and with neither missing??
So you calculate the TTK in a completely biased situation to support your claims? Am i the only one here not following this? Or does every marine react instantly and not miss, and all the skulks run into them and bite and cant predict their movements for ****...
Generally I would assume both are of equal skill, and therefore if the skulk is within bite range and the marine is 2 bites away from death, the skulk would always win.
The marine just cannot kill him fast enough without weapon upgrades.
So tell me, how does one calculate TTK on paper - equally and without bias, xdragon?
Edit:
Responding to your edit, I would say if "both are of equal skill" and we're assuming that "the skulk is within bite range" that the marine would have also hurt the skulk.
The foundation of melee vs ranged is that the goal of the melee team is to close the distance gap in order to attack, and the goal of the ranged team is to attack the enemy before the distance is closed ... So we would have to assume said skill level of closing the distance gap affords a certain degree of damage more than likely inflicted on said skulk, should the marine be equally skilled in accomplishing goals, would we not?
If so, then there's no clear indicator as to who may win considering the variance of damage that may be inflicted in that time period... making this far from a reliable scenario capable of calculating TTK on paper.
So i ask again : How does one calculate TTK on paper - equally and without bias, xdragon? If not for the theoretical "ideal conditions" that were laid out?
If you want to make an unbiased calculation of TTKs which assumes perfect play from both parties, then don't base your assumptions on something as flimsy as skulks needing an extra bite's time to compensate for strafe-jumping, because if the skulk knows how to engage in combat without losing momentum and is good enough to predict where the marine is going to jump, then the skulk can keep up with the marine and finish him in 0,5s. "SJ always requires skulks to bite one more time" is just as good a claim as "Every marine will always miss half their bullets", it's dependent on skill.
You have to consider multiple scenarios in a matrix that combines skill (positioning/6th sense/aim), time in game (early, mid, late), and situations.
A table on why i think SJ should go. It's based on my personal experience and stuff. The blue diagonal line is supposed to be a 50%50% chance to win. Before doing it i didn't think it could be bad for skulks like that.
My main argument is "in a perfect world is would be ok" but is it not a perfect world.
Obstacles are:
-Game has many issue concerning performances (everything stops effect)
-Networks and server lags (perf + software) isn't making the game better.
-SJ don't solve lag problems. It adds to it (prediction and stuff). BTW same for WJ and BH.
-Dumb Mexican jumping beans.
-Alien orange vision
-reduced hit cone (melee)
-Teeth rack (never liked, never will), view blocking.
And for those who say it's the same speed, the same blah blah. You have to consider it as a whole: Orange vomit, teeth, cone, lags etc...
Balance without SJ could be done with simple things like: raise extractor life a little so alien will have to fight a little more on RTs, extend marine upgrade time, pump money income for marine. So they can have more meds (which is basically their complaint).
Remember that right now, Div1 is Carapace, meatball and stuff like that. I wonder if one team would have the balls to start Shade.
Remember that right now, Div1 is Carapace, meatball and stuff like that. I wonder if one team would have the balls to start Shade.
The mucus is the reason for crag hive. shade is useless because with 2 tweaks to graphic settings you can see through the wannabe invisibility, illusions are baad, and scouting hardly is a problem with the drifters and decent teamplay
You dont calculate TTK because it is a mostly meaningless metric for skulk vs marine. The TTK for a skulk is completely unchanged for a reallly, reallly long time, but suddenly you see marines winning early engagements much easier. Its not because the TTK is messed up, its because its much harder to play a good skulk than a good marine currently.
And the worst thing you could do to this game atm is slow marines back down and give them more of a resource advantage.. No one enjoys fighting 50+ medpacks per engagement....
If you want to make an unbiased calculation of TTKs which assumes perfect play from both parties,.
I don't think anyone said "perfect play"?
The phrase used was "equally skilled"
That's the problem, really, in this discussion..
If perfect play occurred, the marine would have killed the skulk before it closed the gap. Vice versa for the skulk closing the distance and killing. Forget about the skulk tracking a SJ..
You also wouldn't use "perfect play" in this scenario because it does not apply to SJ, since everyone knows higher skilled players are uneffected and thus it makes for a poor calculation. Hence why were stuck comparing melee range skulk biting without missing against a marine firing his Rifle without missing.
The important part to remember : The lack of skill required to SJ properly is not equaled by the difficulty in a skulk predicting the SJ.
The mucus is the reason for crag hive. shade is useless because with 2 tweaks to graphic settings you can see through the wannabe invisibility, illusions are baad, and scouting hardly is a problem with the drifters and decent teamplay
go and join your cousins in the 'crappy mechanics that don't work in a melee vs ranged game' trash bin (aka. 'rifle knockback' and 'crappy collision marine jump knockback')
We also need to properly understand what it is to do things right. I heard Mendasp say aliens are no fun to play, because you cannot afford to make as many mistakes.
The point is this: Let's say that for a skulk to kill a marine, he just needs to get all his bites right. By contrast, suppose the skulk misses one bite - the marine might miss half a clip and still kill the skulk. In other words, should the standards for killing not be more equivalent? If the skulk attacks from a distance and dies - good; the skulk is supposed to die then (on average). But if the skulk has the jump on the marine, a 5/10 player should be able to kill a 5/10 marine at least 51% of the time, no?
Judging by the number of people who complain about this, I would say that is not the case.
Edit: Although mind you due to the speed differences marines should win more than 50% of engagements otherwise they would never make it out of their half of the map.
go and join your cousins in the 'crappy mechanics that don't work in a melee vs ranged game' trash bin (aka. 'rifle knockback' and 'crappy collision marine jump knockback')
go and join your cousins in the 'crappy mechanics that don't work in a melee vs ranged game' trash bin (aka. 'rifle knockback' and 'crappy collision marine jump knockback')
go and join your cousins in the 'crappy mechanics that don't work in a melee vs ranged game' trash bin (aka. 'rifle knockback' and 'crappy collision marine jump knockback')
they get tossed into the dark recesses of the mind forever locked away by our self conscious as if they never existed.
Same as this thread disappears into distant memories of arguments gone by.
I wish that's what would happen to the alien commander.
Dunno why people think the NS 1 style of alien team work wouldn't kill off public play within a week.
I'd throw my vote behind turning strafe jump into NS 1 marine strafe jump, i.e some long arse cool down between jumps of 0.5 seconds or 1.0 second to prevent the spamming, I wouldn't want to completely remove a marines ability to reposition themselves at least once in a fight as total removal would just result in a lot more camping/scanning and if this game gets any more passive I might just take up painting walls in my spare time.
I don't even mind current implementation but I can see why it is beyond frustrating for a lot of newer players, a more experienced marine is able to effectively engage 3-4 aliens in a 10 second window by being able to re position 5-8 times, often marine going one way while skulk went the other creating an impossible to close distance, elevation typically making things worse for skulk.
Maybe change it so reloading can't happen while jumping? Reloading halves mid air acceleration? Increase time between chaining jumps or plummet marine mid air accel ala NS 1?
Seems like a lot of options to explore that will probably be ignored so I look forward to NS2 featuring cover based press X to vault the railing in the near future.
go and join your cousins in the 'crappy mechanics that don't work in a melee vs ranged game' trash bin (aka. 'rifle knockback' and 'crappy collision marine jump knockback')
they get tossed into the dark recesses of the mind forever locked away by our self conscious as if they never existed.
Same as this thread disappears into distant memories of arguments gone by.
I wish that's what would happen to the alien commander.
Dunno why people think the NS 1 style of alien team work wouldn't kill off public play within a week.
I'd throw my vote behind turning strafe jump into NS 1 marine strafe jump, i.e some long arse cool down between jumps of 0.5 seconds or 1.0 second to prevent the spamming, I wouldn't want to completely remove a marines ability to reposition themselves at least once in a fight as total removal would just result in a lot more camping/scanning and if this game gets any more passive I might just take up painting walls in my spare time.
I don't even mind current implementation but I can see why it is beyond frustrating for a lot of newer players, a more experienced marine is able to effectively engage 3-4 aliens in a 10 second window by being able to re position 5-8 times, often marine going one way while skulk went the other creating an impossible to close distance, elevation typically making things worse for skulk.
Maybe change it so reloading can't happen while jumping? Reloading halves mid air acceleration? Increase time between chaining jumps or plummet marine mid air accel ala NS 1?
Seems like a lot of options to explore that will probably be ignored so I look forward to NS2 featuring cover based press X to vault the railing in the near future.
edit: words.
So you want NS1 marine strafe jump huh ? Well then i want NS1 skulk ambush gameplay.
... that would mean getting rid of interp (cant tell you how funny it is shooting an ambushing skulk on the ceiling when he doesn't even realize you are there, and then he accuses you of hacking)
... it would also mean slowing down the pace of the game and making the early game longer.
... other things i haven't thought of :P
But we all know that wont happen, so keep on dreaming like the rest of us.
Comments
Dont make up things you dont know.
EDIT: Now the same (I assume) person has disagreed with me pointing out that they were an idiot for disagreeing with someone who actually digs around in what the game is made of. Internet you continue to impress me.
Bad players need their excuses, without them they would have nothing to blame but their own lack of skill
Wait.. isn't that what the entire foundation of this paper balance discussion was?
Isn't this how Charlie and NS1 PTs decided on numbers?
Isn't this the standard?
... or am i missing something?
How else do you begin calculating potential TTK for skulks if they are not already within range of doing damage? And how else would you debate without assuming equal timings with both firing at the same time and with neither missing??
Generally I would assume both are of equal skill, and therefore if the skulk is within bite range and the marine is 2 bites away from death, the skulk would always win.
The marine just cannot kill him fast enough without weapon upgrades.
So you're just ignoring that that's what the discussion was being based on a page ago and assuming i'm just creating this new standard, huh? Interesting.
"In ideal conditions assuming the skulk starts at melee range"
So tell me, how does one calculate TTK on paper - equally and without bias, xdragon?
Edit:
Responding to your edit, I would say if "both are of equal skill" and we're assuming that "the skulk is within bite range" that the marine would have also hurt the skulk.
The foundation of melee vs ranged is that the goal of the melee team is to close the distance gap in order to attack, and the goal of the ranged team is to attack the enemy before the distance is closed ... So we would have to assume said skill level of closing the distance gap affords a certain degree of damage more than likely inflicted on said skulk, should the marine be equally skilled in accomplishing goals, would we not?
If so, then there's no clear indicator as to who may win considering the variance of damage that may be inflicted in that time period... making this far from a reliable scenario capable of calculating TTK on paper.
So i ask again : How does one calculate TTK on paper - equally and without bias, xdragon? If not for the theoretical "ideal conditions" that were laid out?
If you want to make an unbiased calculation of TTKs which assumes perfect play from both parties, then don't base your assumptions on something as flimsy as skulks needing an extra bite's time to compensate for strafe-jumping, because if the skulk knows how to engage in combat without losing momentum and is good enough to predict where the marine is going to jump, then the skulk can keep up with the marine and finish him in 0,5s. "SJ always requires skulks to bite one more time" is just as good a claim as "Every marine will always miss half their bullets", it's dependent on skill.
A table on why i think SJ should go. It's based on my personal experience and stuff. The blue diagonal line is supposed to be a 50%50% chance to win. Before doing it i didn't think it could be bad for skulks like that.
My main argument is "in a perfect world is would be ok" but is it not a perfect world.
Obstacles are:
-Game has many issue concerning performances (everything stops effect)
-Networks and server lags (perf + software) isn't making the game better.
-SJ don't solve lag problems. It adds to it (prediction and stuff). BTW same for WJ and BH.
-Dumb Mexican jumping beans.
-Alien orange vision
-reduced hit cone (melee)
-Teeth rack (never liked, never will), view blocking.
And for those who say it's the same speed, the same blah blah. You have to consider it as a whole: Orange vomit, teeth, cone, lags etc...
Balance without SJ could be done with simple things like: raise extractor life a little so alien will have to fight a little more on RTs, extend marine upgrade time, pump money income for marine. So they can have more meds (which is basically their complaint).
Remember that right now, Div1 is Carapace, meatball and stuff like that. I wonder if one team would have the balls to start Shade.
And the worst thing you could do to this game atm is slow marines back down and give them more of a resource advantage.. No one enjoys fighting 50+ medpacks per engagement....
The phrase used was "equally skilled"
That's the problem, really, in this discussion..
If perfect play occurred, the marine would have killed the skulk before it closed the gap. Vice versa for the skulk closing the distance and killing. Forget about the skulk tracking a SJ..
You also wouldn't use "perfect play" in this scenario because it does not apply to SJ, since everyone knows higher skilled players are uneffected and thus it makes for a poor calculation. Hence why were stuck comparing melee range skulk biting without missing against a marine firing his Rifle without missing.
The important part to remember :
The lack of skill required to SJ properly is not equaled by the difficulty in a skulk predicting the SJ.
Next suggestion?
hmmmmm... never mind.
go and join your cousins in the 'crappy mechanics that don't work in a melee vs ranged game' trash bin (aka. 'rifle knockback' and 'crappy collision marine jump knockback')
:-h :-h :-h :-h :-h :-h Bon Voyage :-h :-h :-h :-h :-h :-h
Is this when running or jumping? Or both?
The point is this: Let's say that for a skulk to kill a marine, he just needs to get all his bites right. By contrast, suppose the skulk misses one bite - the marine might miss half a clip and still kill the skulk. In other words, should the standards for killing not be more equivalent? If the skulk attacks from a distance and dies - good; the skulk is supposed to die then (on average). But if the skulk has the jump on the marine, a 5/10 player should be able to kill a 5/10 marine at least 51% of the time, no?
Judging by the number of people who complain about this, I would say that is not the case.
Edit: Although mind you due to the speed differences marines should win more than 50% of engagements otherwise they would never make it out of their half of the map.
they get tossed into the dark recesses of the mind forever locked away by our self conscious as if they never existed.
Same as this thread disappears into distant memories of arguments gone by.
I wish that's what would happen to the alien commander.
Dunno why people think the NS 1 style of alien team work wouldn't kill off public play within a week.
I'd throw my vote behind turning strafe jump into NS 1 marine strafe jump, i.e some long arse cool down between jumps of 0.5 seconds or 1.0 second to prevent the spamming, I wouldn't want to completely remove a marines ability to reposition themselves at least once in a fight as total removal would just result in a lot more camping/scanning and if this game gets any more passive I might just take up painting walls in my spare time.
I don't even mind current implementation but I can see why it is beyond frustrating for a lot of newer players, a more experienced marine is able to effectively engage 3-4 aliens in a 10 second window by being able to re position 5-8 times, often marine going one way while skulk went the other creating an impossible to close distance, elevation typically making things worse for skulk.
Maybe change it so reloading can't happen while jumping? Reloading halves mid air acceleration? Increase time between chaining jumps or plummet marine mid air accel ala NS 1?
Seems like a lot of options to explore that will probably be ignored so I look forward to NS2 featuring cover based press X to vault the railing in the near future.
edit: words.
So you want NS1 marine strafe jump huh ? Well then i want NS1 skulk ambush gameplay.
... that would mean getting rid of interp (cant tell you how funny it is shooting an ambushing skulk on the ceiling when he doesn't even realize you are there, and then he accuses you of hacking)
... it would also mean slowing down the pace of the game and making the early game longer.
... other things i haven't thought of :P
But we all know that wont happen, so keep on dreaming like the rest of us.
bye bye strafe jump :-h
Didn't you read the cooking thread? Clog cakes of course!
I request someone update the thread plz.