When it does get removed (which is fine by me, sj makes no difference), can we get a special badge for all the whiners in this thread that says 'I thought strafe jumping was the problem.'
When it does get removed (which is fine by me, sj makes no difference), can we get a special badge for all the whiners in this thread that says 'I thought strafe jumping was the problem.'
Why would that happen? If they did revert it, it would just go back to when there were no complaints at all regarding strafe jumping. These complains only started arising a few patches ago, so your prediction is incredibly dumb.
If SJ is not the problem, stop bothering to contest it's removal then.
Plenty of people have explained why SJ is a problem, or is superfluous and doesn't need to exist. It's not about winrate, the game being noob friendly, or skulk's viability past early game. It's entirely about sj contradicting design direction and not having a real reason to exist.
I've played a lot and it seems clear to me that sj is not the actual problem here. With that said, I don't actually see the point of sj and I wouldn't mourn its loss, but then instead of the 'waa sj op my floor skulk gets destroyed' threads we will end up with a load of 'waa skulks too slow' or 'Marines op!' threads instead.
The reason for this is that most pub players are not good skulks, and most pub players seem to think that 1v1 engagements should be the norm. To all those people saying that sj makes them godlike marines: you will still get destroyed by good skulks unless you are already a good marine irrespective of sj.
SJ is a small additional horizontal boost to the normal jump. It also reduces the jump height and has a fairly lengthy cooldown in combat terms.
Please do by all means get rid of sj. But the following plea still stands regardless: learn to skulk. That is the answer to the problems being described in this thread, I'm afraid.
And I will post what I just posted to another user in a similar thread:
Every defense I see for the current strafe jumping always comes back to the same excuses. Blaming the players skill and competence on how to play skulk.
I've played a lot and it seems clear to me that sj is not the actual problem here. With that said, I don't actually see the point of sj and I wouldn't mourn its loss, but then instead of the 'waa sj op my floor skulk gets destroyed' threads we will end up with a load of 'waa skulks too slow' or 'Marines op!' threads instead.
The reason for this is that most pub players are not good skulks, and most pub players seem to think that 1v1 engagements should be the norm. To all those people saying that sj makes them godlike marines: you will still get destroyed by good skulks unless you are already a good marine irrespective of sj.
SJ is a small additional horizontal boost to the normal jump. It also reduces the jump height and has a fairly lengthy cooldown in combat terms.
Please do by all means get rid of sj. But the following plea still stands regardless: learn to skulk. That is the answer to the problems being described in this thread, I'm afraid.
And I will post what I just posted to another user in a similar thread:
Every defense I see for the current strafe jumping always comes back to the same excuses. Blaming the players skill and competence on how to play skulk.
What a surprise we have here.
So basically we're back with this argument. Which isn't wrong on a part but ultimately biased as it consider every complaint are from bad skulk. Does it makes me the exception ? Let's sum up some argument proposed before.
*Proper marine should take care of positioning and checking better.
As the "ground skulk" argument can be seen as valid. The "Dumb Rambos" argument is valid the same. So L2P argument arn't that much of an importance. We all had to learn to play the game.
ALso :
maD_maX_, Asmodies on page 3.
RadimaX on page 4.
My own experience on page 6 (i'm not the best marine ever).
maD_maX_ on page 6 (pistolero land).
MoFo on page 8
elodea on page 9
Achilles on page 10
Zalamael on page 11
*SJ come at a wrong moment.
At the same time Alien have been granted (nerfed) an orange AV (seriously ??? Orange?), a hit cone reduced, still have the stupid teeth racks on the screen which really increase the difficulty (blocking view). The shotgun that behave like a 360° melee weapon. Even from behind you die: whut?
ALso:
Blarney_Stone on page 9
SJ is ridiculous:
Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing...
See RadimaX on page 1.
MoFo on page 9
and many after that
SJ is relying on lag (as WJ and BH):
The game is laggy; so why add more stuff relying on lag ? A melee engagement becomes a lottery.
ALso :
Asmodies on page 2
me & Kamamura on page 11
PaLaGi on page 11
1on1 is melee range.
Melee range should be granting alien a bit of earnings.
*Sj allow Rambos to escape a perfectly executed ambush with one stroke.
*Even if a bite is landed properly no marine is slowed down.
The win ratio argument:
Increasing lucky shot numbers with lag isn't a proper way to balance it. Imagine tomorrow we all have fiber and <10 ping... Marine needed something to bypass the loss of some shotguns or PG. That could be solved with economy or giving back the shotty as he respawn (even if the shotgun would cost more). Plus stats are biased when a sale week happen.
Other opinion :
Achilles on page 8
BestProfileName on page 6
reeql on page 10
MoFo on page 11
And :
-Yes i'm not a ground skulk.
-Yes i play pub as i don't need after +10 years of NS to prove anything to anyone. I won my share, i'm over it.
-Yes i never end up on the bottom of the scoreboard.
-Yes i played against competitive players on NS2 (for those who say : it's not the same on pub). As there aren't so many ppl right now; it's easy to get on the same servers. Classic/Combat name it. Ex: TWAT or Pro-combat server where you can cross sometimes Cyborg eye like SammyG or Heracles and many others. I was not on the bottom scoreboard these days either. In fact comp it's mostly a better aim not forcibly a better "6th sense" of the game.
-Yes i'm gliding at +12 (mini) speed unit and sees the Benny Hill show regularly, or should i say "Bunny Hill" show.
-Yes i still vote SJ, WJ, BH out as the prediction system is wrong or cranky (teleporting) most of the time. The game isn't ready for that. I mean everybody is complaining about the default speed as it doesn't feel right since many builds. Hiding lag issue is always done by reducing speeds.
Strafe Jump is one problem. It won't be if many issue (like lag, key assignment and such) are solved.
Really tiring to see this thread keep going on with the same nonsense being reiterated by a small alien stacking cabal. Ultimately, this is a learn to play issue. Perhaps you guys should get off your usual server and spend some time in a higher skill server, such as some of the European ones, and see how things are done by highly skilled skulks. If you are on the east coast, the pings are manageable.
DO you realise that MOST people who play computers games do not have the skills to become good at computer games? Sure, go around shouting Learn To Play, like some elitist moron, but the vast majority of people who game do not have the necessary, Hand-eye co-ordination, or the tactical awareness, or the speed of thought required, or any one of a number of attributes required to get good at computer games.
So you are saying, lets make sure NS2 stays as a game that only 20% of the player base can play well and have any fun with, all you people who aren't good at games, but bought NS2, go and take a jump.
If SJ is not the problem, stop bothering to contest it's removal then..
This. One thousand times this.
If it doesn't effect you one way or the other, and you will not mourn it's loss, why the hell are any of you even bothering to post L2P arguments??
Especially the continued heckling from some users.. @roobubba suggesting branding those who gave their feedback on the matter.. tsk tsk, i am disappointed.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
risking getting flamed but...
I ENJOY skulking against marines who can strafejump as well as normal jump. I mean, ambush is getting the first bite in right? Successful attacks are getting the rest of the bites in.
A jumping marines does up the difficulty of doing so.
What happens when I attack a less experienced marine from the back regardless of armor level? They die, because they do not jump and react when I got a few bites in.
Experienced marines jump on the first hit and are harder to hit.
It makes it much more interested. A skulk can still win this engagement with more chance then a marine with some good climbing, direction changing and biting. But the marine has added chance.
Yes I also spend bite after bite getting dodged which showed me one thing.. I can improve. Every time I keep missing bites I speed to some form of cover, get up, change directions, jump & bite and usually get another hit in. The problem with most skulk vs (strafe) jumping marines is they stay on the ground.
A jumping marine is already complicating aim, make it even worse and swap directions. Reambush.
I am sure many shant agree, but I for one enjoy the depth of it more then I would annoy it.
This is the Beta mod which has changes that will eventually make it into the game ...
Check out the beta and post your comments in http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128755/sewlek-s-beta-test-mod about your take on how its implemented to get the changes put into the game.. instead of ranting here.. you have an opportunity to make this change happen .. enough spam tbh
Really tiring to see this thread keep going on with the same nonsense being reiterated by a small alien stacking cabal. Ultimately, this is a learn to play issue. Perhaps you guys should get off your usual server and spend some time in a higher skill server, such as some of the European ones, and see how things are done by highly skilled skulks. If you are on the east coast, the pings are manageable.
DO you realise that MOST people who play computers games do not have the skills to become good at computer games? Sure, go around shouting Learn To Play, like some elitist moron, but the vast majority of people who game do not have the necessary, Hand-eye co-ordination, or the tactical awareness, or the speed of thought required, or any one of a number of attributes required to get good at computer games.
So you are saying, lets make sure NS2 stays as a game that only 20% of the player base can play well and have any fun with, all you people who aren't good at games, but bought NS2, go and take a jump.
Wow, you are such a nice person...
And why not? Why should every single game over the past 7 or so years be dumbed down so that the lowest common denominator can play it? These players have dozens of options available for games with a really low skill floor, games that were designed for bad players, but instead they choose to play a high skill game, and then insist that it be dumbed down for their sake. Why can't the skilled and intelligent players have a game designed for their higher level of play?
You may well be right in that not everyone has excellent hand-eye co-ordination (which affects twitch aiming), but most of the bad players I see aren't bad because they don't aim very well, they are bad because they don't think very well and they don't learn from their mistakes.
Nowhere have I said that sj should stay. It's a pointless addition that really doesn't being anything useful or interesting to the game. However, it is not the problem that is being described here, that is plain and simple bad skulks and/or people who don't understand what level of teamwork is required when. Removing sj won't fix bad play.
Really tiring to see this thread keep going on with the same nonsense being reiterated by a small alien stacking cabal. Ultimately, this is a learn to play issue. Perhaps you guys should get off your usual server and spend some time in a higher skill server, such as some of the European ones, and see how things are done by highly skilled skulks. If you are on the east coast, the pings are manageable.
Good thing i'm French. But... Is it making me a "Cabalist Supa bastard-skulk with French fries and Mayonnaise" ?
Learning should be like stairs. Steps must be the same size. Here rookies skulks are confronted with uncomfortable factors (AV, hit cone, lag, prediction system, rubber band etc.. a lot has been said) which make it discouraging from step one as marine is easier on the same "step one". Also you can't learn to play against lag. It varies at any moment. There is no regular lag (technically impossible). SJ/Wj/BH are too much depending on lag.
Really tiring to see this thread keep going on with the same nonsense being reiterated by a small alien stacking cabal. Ultimately, this is a learn to play issue. Perhaps you guys should get off your usual server and spend some time in a higher skill server, such as some of the European ones, and see how things are done by highly skilled skulks. If you are on the east coast, the pings are manageable.
DO you realise that MOST people who play computers games do not have the skills to become good at computer games? Sure, go around shouting Learn To Play, like some elitist moron, but the vast majority of people who game do not have the necessary, Hand-eye co-ordination, or the tactical awareness, or the speed of thought required, or any one of a number of attributes required to get good at computer games.
So you are saying, lets make sure NS2 stays as a game that only 20% of the player base can play well and have any fun with, all you people who aren't good at games, but bought NS2, go and take a jump.
Wow, you are such a nice person...
And why not? Why should every single game over the past 7 or so years be dumbed down so that the lowest common denominator can play it? These players have dozens of options available for games with a really low skill floor, games that were designed for bad players, but instead they choose to play a high skill game, and then insist that it be dumbed down for their sake. Why can't the skilled and intelligent players have a game designed for their higher level of play?
You may well be right in that not everyone has excellent hand-eye co-ordination (which affects twitch aiming), but most of the bad players I see aren't bad because they don't aim very well, they are bad because they don't think very well and they don't learn from their mistakes.
Well seeing as almost no bugger is playing it at the moment who is it being made for? gotta pay the bills after all.
And why not? Why should every single game over the past 7 or so years be dumbed down so that the lowest common denominator can play it? These players have dozens of options available for games with a really low skill floor, games that were designed for bad players, but instead they choose to play a high skill game, and then insist that it be dumbed down for their sake. Why can't the skilled and intelligent players have a game designed for their higher level of play?
You may well be right in that not everyone has excellent hand-eye co-ordination (which affects twitch aiming), but most of the bad players I see aren't bad because they don't aim very well, they are bad because they don't think very well and they don't learn from their mistakes.
Like I said, there are many reasons some can't get good, and for some it may be because they can't think on the battlefield. My point isn't make it a no skill game, my point is it should have a skill curve. At the moment it is not so much a curve as a huge step.
Nowhere have I said that sj should stay. It's a pointless addition that really doesn't being anything useful or interesting to the game. However, it is not the problem that is being described here, that is plain and simple bad skulks and/or people who don't understand what level of teamwork is required when. Removing sj won't fix bad play.
It's nice that you have an opinion, but I don't care. Most of us don't because you've outed yourself as being incredibly biased and 100% convinced that you're right with zero margin for error and that anyone that disagrees with you is bad at the game. If you want to throw skill into the mix, I play with div 1 and 2 players in the NA scene when they occasionally pub, I was cal-i in cs 1.6 and I've gone to (and even won one) inter-naitonal tournaments. I guarantee you not wanting strafe jump in is not a L2P issue. It's poor design, contradicts the design direction for encounters stated by UWE, and it has effected the early game (0:00 to about 5:00) in a negative way creating a very binary situation where if rines win it's most often in the first 7 mins.
The win %'s are "balanced" but the internal parts of the game aren't, aliens get too large a boost of strength mid-game and marines have too large a one early game. If late game comes around at 20+ minutes it's whichever side took the advantage and snowballed with res, THAT is the actual problem, and by removing strafe jump you remove a bit of marines early potency. After that we need to flatten out the aliens power curve by giving them a little more power around the 4 min mark and a little less power at the 6-8 minute mark.
There, instead of just being full of yourself and spouting L2P, how about you learn to debate and put up some counterarguments for my points. L2P is off the table unless you've won an international tournament in and FPS.
The win %'s are "balanced" but the internal parts of the game aren't, aliens get too large a boost of strength mid-game and marines have too large a one early game. If late game comes around at 20+ minutes it's whichever side took the advantage and snowballed with res, THAT is the actual problem, and by removing strafe jump you remove a bit of marines early potency. After that we need to flatten out the aliens power curve by giving them a little more power around the 4 min mark and a little less power at the 6-8 minute mark.
I was gonna post the exact same thing in another thread.
This game is far from balanced ... anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know any better.
In NS1 the early game could go either side
The Mid game usually favored the side that won the early game but it was entirely possible to turn things around.
The Late game almost always went to the side that won the mid game, yet there was sometimes the rare comeback.
This was in no way perfect, as many players didn't like how the game was mostly decided by the mid game ... but it was so much more balanced than NS2.
@Asmodies I am not full of myself, what you are attempting to do is to detract from my arguments by discrediting me with your pathetic personal attacks. While I was in the top clan in the world for kingpin, I am not now at that top 10 in the world player level that I once was. No doubt this admission will devalidate anything further I have to say in your eyes. So be it.
@Asmodies I am not full of myself, what you are attempting to do is to detract from my arguments by discrediting me with your pathetic personal attacks. While I was in the top clan in the world for kingpin, I am not now at that top 10 in the world player level that I once was. No doubt this admission will devalidate anything further I have to say in your eyes. So be it.
All I've seen from you is "L2P", you've not made any other arguments substantiated by any other basis. You are discrediting people that disagree with a personal attack saying they only have that opinion because they are not skilled. *I'M* telling YOU to stop deflecting from the argument, you've already said you have no contention with sj being removed, and you've not responded to any arguments with anything other than "L2P" in pages and pages of posts.
Your last post was just another deflection, I'm not attacking you personally, I'm saying you have no basis to say "L2P" as an argument and doing so is an assertion of superiority over other forum posters.
@Asmodies I am not full of myself, what you are attempting to do is to detract from my arguments by discrediting me with your pathetic personal attacks. While I was in the top clan in the world for kingpin, I am not now at that top 10 in the world player level that I once was. No doubt this admission will devalidate anything further I have to say in your eyes. So be it.
All I've seen from you is "L2P", you've not made any other arguments substantiated by any other basis. You are discrediting people that disagree with a personal attack saying they only have that opinion because they are not skilled. *I'M* telling YOU to stop deflecting from the argument, you've already said you have no contention with sj being removed, and you've not responded to any arguments with anything other than "L2P" in pages and pages of posts.
Your last post was just another deflection, I'm not attacking you personally, I'm saying you have no basis to say "L2P" as an argument and doing so is an assertion of superiority over other forum posters.
While I do think that strafe jump is OP, it is not a game breaking mechanic. Before strafe jump, we would see aliens dominating early game engagements and then the higher lifeforms would win even more against poorly equipped marines.
I'm all for reducing the effectiveness of strafe jump as I think it is OP, but I hope they do not remove it.
Now for the L2P argument.
I know myself and many other skulks are not having big problems fragging marines with strafe jump. We are considered as highly skilled but I struggle to believe that we've only just hit the skill level required to kill strafe jumping marines. Just as you complain that you can't hit them, we are saying that we can. You say that it's too hard, we say it's not as bad as you say it is. We are proof that it's not impossible and that if you were to improve, you'd be seeing results too.
The problem with this argument is that now people go into "game is catered for pro players" and "ur 2 noob lol" modes where both sides just slag each other off. But that's almost going to be the case with every feature until a compromise has been met which is what is being attempted to be achieved by the decrease in effectiveness of strafe jump. Lets just wait and feel how the game plays out when the next patch comes out. It should make skulks easier to play and yet still give marines a mechanism to cope with super speedy skulks from b250.
IMO, reduce marine strafe jump 75% and bring back panting!
@Asmodies I am not full of myself, what you are attempting to do is to detract from my arguments by discrediting me with your pathetic personal attacks. While I was in the top clan in the world for kingpin, I am not now at that top 10 in the world player level that I once was. No doubt this admission will devalidate anything further I have to say in your eyes. So be it.
I know myself and many other skulks are not having big problems fragging marines with strafe jump. We are considered as highly skilled but I struggle to believe that we've only just hit the skill level required to kill strafe jumping marines. Just as you complain that you can't hit them, we are saying that we can. You say that it's too hard, we say it's not as bad as you say it is. We are proof that it's not impossible and that if you were to improve, you'd be seeing results too.
The problem with this argument is that now people go into "game is catered for pro players" and "ur 2 noob lol" modes where both sides just slag each other off.
He's saying he was the best at a quake 2 mod that no one ever played.
Coincidentally, if he had just been the world's top Woody Harrelson or Randy Quaid impersonator; it would of held equal weight as far as e-cred goes.
Don't blame me if all you youngsters don't have a clue what online gaming was like in the 90s Playing vs US teams from the UK over a dial up connection with pings between 150 and 250 was... interesting. Totally incomparable to playing NS2 with that sort of ping, I might add.
Yes, KP was a little-known game, but it was a lot of fun, and we had a blast doing it. I ran a Kingpin Intensive Training course for newbies, vets and pros, had a mapper on board creating me maps to train at all levels, and had a few of the top players on board as helpers to run the sessions. Fun times
But none of that gives me any more credibility in NS2, and nor should it. The fact that I've been around the block a few times, that I've played competitive level gaming for considerably over a decade in multiple titles, that I played NS1 and ran a server then, that I am now a (albeit lowly div 3) comp player in NS2 before and after the strafe jump addition: those things do in fact give me some small semblance of a leg to stand on when I discredit those whose sole argument is 'SJ breaks the game.' Because actually, although SJ SHOULD be toned down or removed entirely, those same skulks will still get owned by the same marines jumping about in combat in the absence of SJ altogether.
I am NOT saying I am a godlike player, because I am not. But if even I - as a truly mediocre player of this game - do not constantly get owned by marines because of strafe jump, then perhaps the argument against strafe jump itself isn't in fact right. Unless you're saying I am a godlike player, and therefore I don't have the same problem with it that others have (which is ridiculous).
@Asmodies I am not full of myself, what you are attempting to do is to detract from my arguments by discrediting me with your pathetic personal attacks. While I was in the top clan in the world for kingpin, I am not now at that top 10 in the world player level that I once was. No doubt this admission will devalidate anything further I have to say in your eyes. So be it.
All I've seen from you is "L2P", you've not made any other arguments substantiated by any other basis. You are discrediting people that disagree with a personal attack saying they only have that opinion because they are not skilled. *I'M* telling YOU to stop deflecting from the argument, you've already said you have no contention with sj being removed, and you've not responded to any arguments with anything other than "L2P" in pages and pages of posts.
Your last post was just another deflection, I'm not attacking you personally, I'm saying you have no basis to say "L2P" as an argument and doing so is an assertion of superiority over other forum posters.
While I do think that strafe jump is OP, it is not a game breaking mechanic. Before strafe jump, we would see aliens dominating early game engagements and then the higher lifeforms would win even more against poorly equipped marines.
I'm all for reducing the effectiveness of strafe jump as I think it is OP, but I hope they do not remove it.
Now for the L2P argument.
I know myself and many other skulks are not having big problems fragging marines with strafe jump. We are considered as highly skilled but I struggle to believe that we've only just hit the skill level required to kill strafe jumping marines. Just as you complain that you can't hit them, we are saying that we can. You say that it's too hard, we say it's not as bad as you say it is. We are proof that it's not impossible and that if you were to improve, you'd be seeing results too.
The problem with this argument is that now people go into "game is catered for pro players" and "ur 2 noob lol" modes where both sides just slag each other off. But that's almost going to be the case with every feature until a compromise has been met which is what is being attempted to be achieved by the decrease in effectiveness of strafe jump. Lets just wait and feel how the game plays out when the next patch comes out. It should make skulks easier to play and yet still give marines a mechanism to cope with super speedy skulks from b250.
IMO, reduce marine strafe jump 75% and bring back panting!
You're right about early game in these build but this wasn't impossible to balance it with proper economy management. And much more simpler. If you buff a little the resource income for marines and make upgrades slightly longer to compensate you can balance it.
Of course the commander would make more assistance (med spam) and we would have complaints about that. But i prefer a TEAMWORK (commander + field units) mechanic than a "Solo pistolero" based one.
Ultimately it is possible to slow down marine economy when they have enough extractors. Say it take a huge Nano-CPU power to manage so many extractors. things like that.
A side effect would be the "Turtle posture" with one RT and the "hard to finish" symptom for Aliens. Again with proper economy management on alien side it can be balanced. On the contrary of marine aliens having all (or near it) resource on map would get a buffed economy. This would encourage to take action in marine base because Onos becomes cheap.
It would be a simple division or multiplication
ex:
Marine have 5 res: 5 res - ( 5 * <balanced coefficient> ).
Alien have 6 res : 5 res + (5 * <balanced coefficient>).
Something done the same way with proper numbers.
I know there is a thin threshold to make it quite fun and balanced. But it would be better and simpler than implementing some mechanics depending on lag/performances.
He's saying he was the best at a quake 2 mod that no one ever played.
Coincidentally, if he had just been the world's top Woody Harrelson or Randy Quaid impersonator; it would of held equal weight as far as e-cred goes.
Don't blame me if all you youngsters don't have a clue what online gaming was like in the 90s Playing vs US teams from the UK over a dial up connection with pings between 150 and 250 was... interesting. Totally incomparable to playing NS2 with that sort of ping, I might add.
Yes, KP was a little-known game, but it was a lot of fun, and we had a blast doing it. I ran a Kingpin Intensive Training course for newbies, vets and pros, had a mapper on board creating me maps to train at all levels, and had a few of the top players on board as helpers to run the sessions. Fun times
But none of that gives me any more credibility in NS2, and nor should it. The fact that I've been around the block a few times, that I've played competitive level gaming for considerably over a decade in multiple titles, that I played NS1 and ran a server then, that I am now a (albeit lowly div 3) comp player in NS2 before and after the strafe jump addition: those things do in fact give me some small semblance of a leg to stand on when I discredit those whose sole argument is 'SJ breaks the game.' Because actually, although SJ SHOULD be toned down or removed entirely, those same skulks will still get owned by the same marines jumping about in combat in the absence of SJ altogether.
I am NOT saying I am a godlike player, because I am not. But if even I - as a truly mediocre player of this game - do not constantly get owned by marines because of strafe jump, then perhaps the argument against strafe jump itself isn't in fact right. Unless you're saying I am a godlike player, and therefore I don't have the same problem with it that others have (which is ridiculous).
Man, your entire post reeks of arrogance. And then saying people don't know what online gaming was in the 90's because they don't recognize some offshoot mod you played is incredibly self-righteous. You come off as such a terrible person, lol.
Comments
Yeah nah don't like it, it's to easy to jump away from skulks.
Why would that happen? If they did revert it, it would just go back to when there were no complaints at all regarding strafe jumping. These complains only started arising a few patches ago, so your prediction is incredibly dumb.
Plenty of people have explained why SJ is a problem, or is superfluous and doesn't need to exist. It's not about winrate, the game being noob friendly, or skulk's viability past early game. It's entirely about sj contradicting design direction and not having a real reason to exist.
After reading the comment I replied to, I'm glad I've missed your earlier comments on SJ.
Edit: I couldn't help myself and come across this:
And I will post what I just posted to another user in a similar thread:
What a surprise we have here.
So basically we're back with this argument. Which isn't wrong on a part but ultimately biased as it consider every complaint are from bad skulk. Does it makes me the exception ? Let's sum up some argument proposed before.
*Proper marine should take care of positioning and checking better.
As the "ground skulk" argument can be seen as valid. The "Dumb Rambos" argument is valid the same. So L2P argument arn't that much of an importance. We all had to learn to play the game.
ALso :
maD_maX_, Asmodies on page 3.
RadimaX on page 4.
My own experience on page 6 (i'm not the best marine ever).
maD_maX_ on page 6 (pistolero land).
MoFo on page 8
elodea on page 9
Achilles on page 10
Zalamael on page 11
*SJ come at a wrong moment.
At the same time Alien have been granted (nerfed) an orange AV (seriously ??? Orange?), a hit cone reduced, still have the stupid teeth racks on the screen which really increase the difficulty (blocking view). The shotgun that behave like a 360° melee weapon. Even from behind you die: whut?
ALso:
Blarney_Stone on page 9
SJ is ridiculous:
Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing... Doing...
See RadimaX on page 1.
MoFo on page 9
and many after that
SJ is relying on lag (as WJ and BH):
The game is laggy; so why add more stuff relying on lag ? A melee engagement becomes a lottery.
ALso :
Asmodies on page 2
me & Kamamura on page 11
PaLaGi on page 11
1on1 is melee range.
Melee range should be granting alien a bit of earnings.
*Sj allow Rambos to escape a perfectly executed ambush with one stroke.
*Even if a bite is landed properly no marine is slowed down.
The win ratio argument:
Increasing lucky shot numbers with lag isn't a proper way to balance it. Imagine tomorrow we all have fiber and <10 ping... Marine needed something to bypass the loss of some shotguns or PG. That could be solved with economy or giving back the shotty as he respawn (even if the shotgun would cost more). Plus stats are biased when a sale week happen.
Other opinion :
Achilles on page 8
BestProfileName on page 6
reeql on page 10
MoFo on page 11
And :
-Yes i'm not a ground skulk.
-Yes i play pub as i don't need after +10 years of NS to prove anything to anyone. I won my share, i'm over it.
-Yes i never end up on the bottom of the scoreboard.
-Yes i played against competitive players on NS2 (for those who say : it's not the same on pub). As there aren't so many ppl right now; it's easy to get on the same servers. Classic/Combat name it. Ex: TWAT or Pro-combat server where you can cross sometimes Cyborg eye like SammyG or Heracles and many others. I was not on the bottom scoreboard these days either. In fact comp it's mostly a better aim not forcibly a better "6th sense" of the game.
-Yes i'm gliding at +12 (mini) speed unit and sees the Benny Hill show regularly, or should i say "Bunny Hill" show.
-Yes i still vote SJ, WJ, BH out as the prediction system is wrong or cranky (teleporting) most of the time. The game isn't ready for that. I mean everybody is complaining about the default speed as it doesn't feel right since many builds. Hiding lag issue is always done by reducing speeds.
Strafe Jump is one problem. It won't be if many issue (like lag, key assignment and such) are solved.
DO you realise that MOST people who play computers games do not have the skills to become good at computer games? Sure, go around shouting Learn To Play, like some elitist moron, but the vast majority of people who game do not have the necessary, Hand-eye co-ordination, or the tactical awareness, or the speed of thought required, or any one of a number of attributes required to get good at computer games.
So you are saying, lets make sure NS2 stays as a game that only 20% of the player base can play well and have any fun with, all you people who aren't good at games, but bought NS2, go and take a jump.
Wow, you are such a nice person...
If it doesn't effect you one way or the other, and you will not mourn it's loss, why the hell are any of you even bothering to post L2P arguments??
Especially the continued heckling from some users.. @roobubba suggesting branding those who gave their feedback on the matter.. tsk tsk, i am disappointed.
I ENJOY skulking against marines who can strafejump as well as normal jump. I mean, ambush is getting the first bite in right? Successful attacks are getting the rest of the bites in.
A jumping marines does up the difficulty of doing so.
What happens when I attack a less experienced marine from the back regardless of armor level? They die, because they do not jump and react when I got a few bites in.
Experienced marines jump on the first hit and are harder to hit.
It makes it much more interested. A skulk can still win this engagement with more chance then a marine with some good climbing, direction changing and biting. But the marine has added chance.
Yes I also spend bite after bite getting dodged which showed me one thing.. I can improve. Every time I keep missing bites I speed to some form of cover, get up, change directions, jump & bite and usually get another hit in. The problem with most skulk vs (strafe) jumping marines is they stay on the ground.
A jumping marine is already complicating aim, make it even worse and swap directions. Reambush.
I am sure many shant agree, but I for one enjoy the depth of it more then I would annoy it.
This is the Beta mod which has changes that will eventually make it into the game ...
Check out the beta and post your comments in http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128755/sewlek-s-beta-test-mod about your take on how its implemented to get the changes put into the game.. instead of ranting here.. you have an opportunity to make this change happen .. enough spam tbh
And why not? Why should every single game over the past 7 or so years be dumbed down so that the lowest common denominator can play it? These players have dozens of options available for games with a really low skill floor, games that were designed for bad players, but instead they choose to play a high skill game, and then insist that it be dumbed down for their sake. Why can't the skilled and intelligent players have a game designed for their higher level of play?
You may well be right in that not everyone has excellent hand-eye co-ordination (which affects twitch aiming), but most of the bad players I see aren't bad because they don't aim very well, they are bad because they don't think very well and they don't learn from their mistakes.
Nowhere have I said that sj should stay. It's a pointless addition that really doesn't being anything useful or interesting to the game. However, it is not the problem that is being described here, that is plain and simple bad skulks and/or people who don't understand what level of teamwork is required when. Removing sj won't fix bad play.
@ironhorse you know I'm right though
Good thing i'm French. But... Is it making me a "Cabalist Supa bastard-skulk with French fries and Mayonnaise" ?
Learning should be like stairs. Steps must be the same size. Here rookies skulks are confronted with uncomfortable factors (AV, hit cone, lag, prediction system, rubber band etc.. a lot has been said) which make it discouraging from step one as marine is easier on the same "step one". Also you can't learn to play against lag. It varies at any moment. There is no regular lag (technically impossible). SJ/Wj/BH are too much depending on lag.
Well seeing as almost no bugger is playing it at the moment who is it being made for? gotta pay the bills after all.
Like I said, there are many reasons some can't get good, and for some it may be because they can't think on the battlefield. My point isn't make it a no skill game, my point is it should have a skill curve. At the moment it is not so much a curve as a huge step.
It's nice that you have an opinion, but I don't care. Most of us don't because you've outed yourself as being incredibly biased and 100% convinced that you're right with zero margin for error and that anyone that disagrees with you is bad at the game. If you want to throw skill into the mix, I play with div 1 and 2 players in the NA scene when they occasionally pub, I was cal-i in cs 1.6 and I've gone to (and even won one) inter-naitonal tournaments. I guarantee you not wanting strafe jump in is not a L2P issue. It's poor design, contradicts the design direction for encounters stated by UWE, and it has effected the early game (0:00 to about 5:00) in a negative way creating a very binary situation where if rines win it's most often in the first 7 mins.
The win %'s are "balanced" but the internal parts of the game aren't, aliens get too large a boost of strength mid-game and marines have too large a one early game. If late game comes around at 20+ minutes it's whichever side took the advantage and snowballed with res, THAT is the actual problem, and by removing strafe jump you remove a bit of marines early potency. After that we need to flatten out the aliens power curve by giving them a little more power around the 4 min mark and a little less power at the 6-8 minute mark.
There, instead of just being full of yourself and spouting L2P, how about you learn to debate and put up some counterarguments for my points. L2P is off the table unless you've won an international tournament in and FPS.
I was gonna post the exact same thing in another thread.
This game is far from balanced ... anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know any better.
In NS1 the early game could go either side
The Mid game usually favored the side that won the early game but it was entirely possible to turn things around.
The Late game almost always went to the side that won the mid game, yet there was sometimes the rare comeback.
This was in no way perfect, as many players didn't like how the game was mostly decided by the mid game ... but it was so much more balanced than NS2.
All I've seen from you is "L2P", you've not made any other arguments substantiated by any other basis. You are discrediting people that disagree with a personal attack saying they only have that opinion because they are not skilled. *I'M* telling YOU to stop deflecting from the argument, you've already said you have no contention with sj being removed, and you've not responded to any arguments with anything other than "L2P" in pages and pages of posts.
Your last post was just another deflection, I'm not attacking you personally, I'm saying you have no basis to say "L2P" as an argument and doing so is an assertion of superiority over other forum posters.
While I do think that strafe jump is OP, it is not a game breaking mechanic. Before strafe jump, we would see aliens dominating early game engagements and then the higher lifeforms would win even more against poorly equipped marines.
I'm all for reducing the effectiveness of strafe jump as I think it is OP, but I hope they do not remove it.
Now for the L2P argument.
I know myself and many other skulks are not having big problems fragging marines with strafe jump. We are considered as highly skilled but I struggle to believe that we've only just hit the skill level required to kill strafe jumping marines. Just as you complain that you can't hit them, we are saying that we can. You say that it's too hard, we say it's not as bad as you say it is. We are proof that it's not impossible and that if you were to improve, you'd be seeing results too.
The problem with this argument is that now people go into "game is catered for pro players" and "ur 2 noob lol" modes where both sides just slag each other off. But that's almost going to be the case with every feature until a compromise has been met which is what is being attempted to be achieved by the decrease in effectiveness of strafe jump. Lets just wait and feel how the game plays out when the next patch comes out. It should make skulks easier to play and yet still give marines a mechanism to cope with super speedy skulks from b250.
IMO, reduce marine strafe jump 75% and bring back panting!
lol, what the hell is kingpin?
Really? I'm visualizing that being too much of a nerf.
Coincidentally, if he had just been the world's top Woody Harrelson or Randy Quaid impersonator; it would of held equal weight as far as e-cred goes.
So your calling Asmodies a noob
So now your a hypocrite
derp
Yes, KP was a little-known game, but it was a lot of fun, and we had a blast doing it. I ran a Kingpin Intensive Training course for newbies, vets and pros, had a mapper on board creating me maps to train at all levels, and had a few of the top players on board as helpers to run the sessions. Fun times
But none of that gives me any more credibility in NS2, and nor should it. The fact that I've been around the block a few times, that I've played competitive level gaming for considerably over a decade in multiple titles, that I played NS1 and ran a server then, that I am now a (albeit lowly div 3) comp player in NS2 before and after the strafe jump addition: those things do in fact give me some small semblance of a leg to stand on when I discredit those whose sole argument is 'SJ breaks the game.' Because actually, although SJ SHOULD be toned down or removed entirely, those same skulks will still get owned by the same marines jumping about in combat in the absence of SJ altogether.
I am NOT saying I am a godlike player, because I am not. But if even I - as a truly mediocre player of this game - do not constantly get owned by marines because of strafe jump, then perhaps the argument against strafe jump itself isn't in fact right. Unless you're saying I am a godlike player, and therefore I don't have the same problem with it that others have (which is ridiculous).
You're right about early game in these build but this wasn't impossible to balance it with proper economy management. And much more simpler. If you buff a little the resource income for marines and make upgrades slightly longer to compensate you can balance it.
Of course the commander would make more assistance (med spam) and we would have complaints about that. But i prefer a TEAMWORK (commander + field units) mechanic than a "Solo pistolero" based one.
Ultimately it is possible to slow down marine economy when they have enough extractors. Say it take a huge Nano-CPU power to manage so many extractors. things like that.
A side effect would be the "Turtle posture" with one RT and the "hard to finish" symptom for Aliens. Again with proper economy management on alien side it can be balanced. On the contrary of marine aliens having all (or near it) resource on map would get a buffed economy. This would encourage to take action in marine base because Onos becomes cheap.
It would be a simple division or multiplication
ex:
Marine have 5 res: 5 res - ( 5 * <balanced coefficient> ).
Alien have 6 res : 5 res + (5 * <balanced coefficient>).
Something done the same way with proper numbers.
I know there is a thin threshold to make it quite fun and balanced. But it would be better and simpler than implementing some mechanics depending on lag/performances.
Man, your entire post reeks of arrogance. And then saying people don't know what online gaming was in the 90's because they don't recognize some offshoot mod you played is incredibly self-righteous. You come off as such a terrible person, lol.