year+ ago the devs were hyping up pvp as if it's going to be the greatest thing ever (1mil tournament, which became indefinitely delayed), but sadly after months of players hating PvP they finally gave up. they hosted their final monthly tournament for $5,000 and literally shut down the PVP servers the night of the tournament.
In my opinion, the best decision they made, since the uniquely defining quality of the game that attracted me was the open world.
I play Firefall regularly and keep checking a lot of the game, but where you get the bankrupt statement from baffles me. Yes, they did fire some people, on the other hand they are still hiring new people.
The company that owns Red 5 (The9, which owns an 81% stake) have been in financial trouble all year, which is why the game was rushed into open beta in time for the 3rd quarter. And also why there is a heavy focus on making money and trying to bring in new players. They aren't out of it yet, but unless they can get more people interested in playing and spending money on the game and soon, they wont last very long.
The difference between NS2 and Firefall, is the primary focus of development. Red 5 made a half arsed attempt at PvP that scared away the average players (because it was too difficult for them) but lacked enough fun/depth for comp players, and then they shifted their focus to PvE. PvP was always going to fail unless they devoted significant time and resources to improving it, which they were unwilling to do. UWE on the other hand seem to be very focused on the competitive aspect of NS2, but many players are complaining because (much like Firefall) they lack the skill to be effective, and so they are walking away from the game.
UWE are approaching a crossroads at this point in time. If they leave the game in the current state to work on a new project, NS2 will bleed players and eventually die (much like Firefall and Tribes Ascend did). However, if they continue to support the game, improving the performance and getting the balance right (for both comp players as well as for average players in early, mid and late game for both sides) then NS2 has a good chance of surviving long term and growing over time.
There is much UWE could learn from looking at Red 5 and Hi Rez, before they make the same mistakes.
I can grab quotes from beta to launch to current.. Doom sayers have been roughly as consistent as player counts since the beginning.
As for the game supposedly getting worse and worse, that's purely subjective - but i would think that the community and most players in general would disagree with you. (except for those that dislike change at all)
You're being a bit dramatic in saying people are "doom sayers". No one is running around saying UWE is done for, NS2 was a huge failure and their company is gona go under, etc. .
I was about to compile a massive list of quotes, living up to my promise of being able to do so after witnessing said posts for multiple years now, when a whole 3 posts later from your own, hakenspit made it unnecessary for me to do so :-P
It really saddens me to see this game falling over less than 12 months after launch...but it is indeed almost dead.
Without growing the casual gamer base NS2 will die..
With so many balance changes every week rolling out designed specificly for competative 6vs6 in mind, then this is the people you will have left on ns2 while the other 95% of regular players move on to another game.
First make the game enjoyable for the rookies, then pull the marketing stunts, imo.
And how exactly do they do that? I'm little more than a rookie, with only 100 odd hours played (most of which have been spent in the training sim figuring out the game) and I've had a fantastic time playing so far.
Then again, I'm an old school gamer so I don't go into games expecting to be rewarded for pressing W to run forwards for the first time. Trust me, if Rookies want to get better at the game, there are many routes to achieve this (watching It'sSuperEffective's or Hugh's videos, messing around in the training sim, reading the forums and other websites etc).
You can only dumb games down so far before the players have to start making an effort. It works both ways.
I'm pretty certain that you're not serious with a straw man argument like that, so I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that you deliberately missed the point entirely. Either way, it's inconstructive and immature.
You use a lot of fancy words at first glance. And then you look at how popular this game is currently and notice that it averages around 600 players. A million dollar multiplayer game with a steady fanbase, released less than a year ago.
In light of those horrible stats, it's outright uneducated to go on about not wanting help new players get into the game. I'm an oldschool/hardcore gamer myself, and even I realize that there is some sort of middle-ground to be met. This game has an incredibly steep learning curve, and when claiming that it could be a good idea to make introducing new players a tad easier (and thereby keeping this game alive, a game you seem to enjoy even) you start going on about being rewarded for finding the W button on your keyboard. How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
There are tons of games with far, FAR more complex and advanced gameplay than Natural Selection 2, and yet they still sit at higher player numbers. You're essentially ignoring all of the problems this game has, and instead blaming the players for not wanting to play. With that said, I'm very curious of how you would like things to change, or are you simply happy with the direction this game is going?
Sorry, but from my perspective, there is plenty of help available for new players. Video guides, various training modes, the forums and good old fashioned questions that you can ask in game of any player that speaks the same language as you. Not to mention watching and learning from the way other players play the various roles.
I noticed that your post was only the 2nd one you have made (and your account is only 1 day old) so I took the liberty of looking up your other post, and wasn't surprised in the slightest that it was in the marine strafe jumping thread.
Now here is the thing, I think there is a skill floor discrepancy between the 2 sides at a basic level. It is far easier to play marine to a decent standard than it is to play as a skulk. I have to play very precisely as a skulk to get kills, if I even miss one bite in a 1v1 it often means dying. This more than anything is going to cost the game players, because new players wont stay around long enough to learn, and bad players will do the same unless they have the capacity to improve their play. And even then, all it takes is a single mistake vs a good player to die, even if you do everything right up to that point. And that just takes the early game into account, as the match progresses you have to start dealing with mines, grenade spam and jetpacks.
But that is not the same thing as saying the game isn't rookie friendly. NS2 has a lot of ways to help new players learn the game and improve their play to a reasonable point. Everything after that is about improving their skills, and this is where the game is struggling to retain players. And a dwindling player base only results in the skill gap between the new players and the veterans getting larger, which only makes the situation worse because of the increased chance of new players being thrown in with veteran players that don't pull their punches. Matchmaking might solve this, but I imagine a match full of players all at a very basic level would be horrible and would still cause many of them to quit. A mentoring system is something that might work though.
The reality is, a game with a high skill requirement, complex mechanics that requires weeks of learning and a high end gaming PC just to be able to play effectively is never going to have a large player base. Anyone that really wants to be here, will be here, and if they dislike aspects of the game, they have the option of using the forums to state their case for changes and hope that the devs listen. After that, it is up to UWE, and they have already implemented a change to strafe jumping on the beta test mod, which proves that they are listening to and acting on feedback.
I personally think the reason a lot of rookies quit is because it requires a lot of teamwork and coordination. Hell, even getting in one bite before dying can be considered teamwork, and then relaying that info to other skulks nearby. Not only that, it basically requires a mike to play efficiently because relaying information to your team is important. In my experience, a lot of PC gamers don't use a mike and prefer to type.
SC2, with around a million players or so is a good example of that, using a mike is preferable in a strategy game but not often used.
NS2 is a game requiring people to actually listen to feedback from players on their team. Rookies have to follow/stick with their team or they get picked off, you can't/shouldn't stay alone and do your own thing. From what I've seen in TF2, doing your 'own thing' and picking your class without discrimination/caring isn't as heavily punished as it is in NS2. Which is why the gameplay is really fun.
In NS2, you must be extremely careful with your personal res and what to do with it. How much res you get a second is determined by RTs you have, and holding as many as you can throughout the game. Lose a shotgun? Lose a fade? It is incredibly punishing and NS2 doesn't forgive.
How are we going to make NS2 fun for newcomers? Should we reduce evolution/weapon costs? Add more achievements? Add a tutorial? In all honesty, I don't know that answer.
P.S. I know that people are doing an outcry for 'WE NEADZ MOAR TUTORIALZ' but the reality of the gaming community is... we just want to play the game. No one likes being spoonfed information, and while a tutorial is great, most rookies will ignore it. SC2 didn't get popular because of it's tutorial, it was popular because of the different personalities of players in high level play, leagues, SC2 map editor, arcade, and a friendly, welcoming community. In case you didn't know, the tutorial was placed after it's expansion, it was still well-known even before expansion.
EDIT: Last I played, TF2 didn't really have a tutorial either (it could've changed but yeah). My point here is that NS2 doesn't forgive, it's gameplay is punishing, and you need to always be vigilant in a game and be careful. There is never a game where you can relax because every game is essentially competitive.
You don't need to "support" the competitive scene for a game to survive... players will.... just play the game. You have to take care of the players first- without PLAYERS, you wont have a competitive scene. without PLAYERS, you wont have mods, maps, commentators, artists, and all the lovely things people create to celebrate the game.
Funny thing is that most of the mods created were created by people who are either in or were in the competitive scene. Secondly the competitive players are in all honestly the most dedicated PLAYERS of NS2. Most of these players have either 4-6 times as many hours as the other regular player and don't play much of any other game. So does it not make sense to "support" a part of your community that puts in the most time playing the game you created?
Funny thing is that most of the mods created were created by people who are either in or were in the competitive scene. Secondly the competitive players are in all honestly the most dedicated PLAYERS of NS2. Most of these players have either 4-6 times as many hours as the other regular player and don't play much of any other game. So does it not make sense to "support" a part of your community that puts in the most time playing the game you created?
You know whats funny ? I remember someone saying the exact same thing before NS1 started to die.
Most competitive players have either 4-6 times as many hours as the other regular players. it not make sense to "support" a part of your community that puts in the most time playing the game you created
#1.Count all players in ns2
#2.count all competative players in division 123 or how many you have and multiply by 4-6x
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
does 1 or 2 put in most hours to ns2? i have prop 2000 hours played but can still enjoy non competative matches on a big server with the rest of the 95% non competative pub players that likes the game.
You don't need to "support" the competitive scene for a game to survive... players will.... just play the game. You have to take care of the players first- without PLAYERS, you wont have a competitive scene. without PLAYERS, you wont have mods, maps, commentators, artists, and all the lovely things people create to celebrate the game.
Funny thing is that most of the mods created were created by people who are either in or were in the competitive scene. Secondly the competitive players are in all honestly the most dedicated PLAYERS of NS2. Most of these players have either 4-6 times as many hours as the other regular player and don't play much of any other game. So does it not make sense to "support" a part of your community that puts in the most time playing the game you created?
I whole heartedly DISAGREE. This is not like the political realm where you have two sides. We all play the same game. Mods for NS1 came from everyone... mostly the average joe. The majority sought after VARIETY and EXPERIMENTATION. Look at siege maps... gorge races.. Granted, even I was in the competitive scene pumping custom server maps for the general public cause it was.... fun.. and exciting. I should add, I continued playing NOT for the competitive scene, but for fun.. even after my after my comp "career". I was interested in creation not BECAUSE i was a competitive player, but I wanted to be create for the player.
The common denominator is the player. With as accessible as the HL1 engine was, you could create stuff beyond Flayra ever imagined and it had very little to do with your gaming "career"
I suggest watching this as it is very relative to the topic of games and the value of competition.
Comments
The company that owns Red 5 (The9, which owns an 81% stake) have been in financial trouble all year, which is why the game was rushed into open beta in time for the 3rd quarter. And also why there is a heavy focus on making money and trying to bring in new players. They aren't out of it yet, but unless they can get more people interested in playing and spending money on the game and soon, they wont last very long.
The difference between NS2 and Firefall, is the primary focus of development. Red 5 made a half arsed attempt at PvP that scared away the average players (because it was too difficult for them) but lacked enough fun/depth for comp players, and then they shifted their focus to PvE. PvP was always going to fail unless they devoted significant time and resources to improving it, which they were unwilling to do. UWE on the other hand seem to be very focused on the competitive aspect of NS2, but many players are complaining because (much like Firefall) they lack the skill to be effective, and so they are walking away from the game.
UWE are approaching a crossroads at this point in time. If they leave the game in the current state to work on a new project, NS2 will bleed players and eventually die (much like Firefall and Tribes Ascend did). However, if they continue to support the game, improving the performance and getting the balance right (for both comp players as well as for average players in early, mid and late game for both sides) then NS2 has a good chance of surviving long term and growing over time.
There is much UWE could learn from looking at Red 5 and Hi Rez, before they make the same mistakes.
I'm pretty certain that you're not serious with a straw man argument like that, so I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that you deliberately missed the point entirely. Either way, it's inconstructive and immature.
You use a lot of fancy words at first glance. And then you look at how popular this game is currently and notice that it averages around 600 players. A million dollar multiplayer game with a steady fanbase, released less than a year ago.
In light of those horrible stats, it's outright uneducated to go on about not wanting help new players get into the game. I'm an oldschool/hardcore gamer myself, and even I realize that there is some sort of middle-ground to be met. This game has an incredibly steep learning curve, and when claiming that it could be a good idea to make introducing new players a tad easier (and thereby keeping this game alive, a game you seem to enjoy even) you start going on about being rewarded for finding the W button on your keyboard. How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
There are tons of games with far, FAR more complex and advanced gameplay than Natural Selection 2, and yet they still sit at higher player numbers. You're essentially ignoring all of the problems this game has, and instead blaming the players for not wanting to play. With that said, I'm very curious of how you would like things to change, or are you simply happy with the direction this game is going?
I noticed that your post was only the 2nd one you have made (and your account is only 1 day old) so I took the liberty of looking up your other post, and wasn't surprised in the slightest that it was in the marine strafe jumping thread.
Now here is the thing, I think there is a skill floor discrepancy between the 2 sides at a basic level. It is far easier to play marine to a decent standard than it is to play as a skulk. I have to play very precisely as a skulk to get kills, if I even miss one bite in a 1v1 it often means dying. This more than anything is going to cost the game players, because new players wont stay around long enough to learn, and bad players will do the same unless they have the capacity to improve their play. And even then, all it takes is a single mistake vs a good player to die, even if you do everything right up to that point. And that just takes the early game into account, as the match progresses you have to start dealing with mines, grenade spam and jetpacks.
But that is not the same thing as saying the game isn't rookie friendly. NS2 has a lot of ways to help new players learn the game and improve their play to a reasonable point. Everything after that is about improving their skills, and this is where the game is struggling to retain players. And a dwindling player base only results in the skill gap between the new players and the veterans getting larger, which only makes the situation worse because of the increased chance of new players being thrown in with veteran players that don't pull their punches. Matchmaking might solve this, but I imagine a match full of players all at a very basic level would be horrible and would still cause many of them to quit. A mentoring system is something that might work though.
The reality is, a game with a high skill requirement, complex mechanics that requires weeks of learning and a high end gaming PC just to be able to play effectively is never going to have a large player base. Anyone that really wants to be here, will be here, and if they dislike aspects of the game, they have the option of using the forums to state their case for changes and hope that the devs listen. After that, it is up to UWE, and they have already implemented a change to strafe jumping on the beta test mod, which proves that they are listening to and acting on feedback.
SC2, with around a million players or so is a good example of that, using a mike is preferable in a strategy game but not often used.
NS2 is a game requiring people to actually listen to feedback from players on their team. Rookies have to follow/stick with their team or they get picked off, you can't/shouldn't stay alone and do your own thing. From what I've seen in TF2, doing your 'own thing' and picking your class without discrimination/caring isn't as heavily punished as it is in NS2. Which is why the gameplay is really fun.
In NS2, you must be extremely careful with your personal res and what to do with it. How much res you get a second is determined by RTs you have, and holding as many as you can throughout the game. Lose a shotgun? Lose a fade? It is incredibly punishing and NS2 doesn't forgive.
How are we going to make NS2 fun for newcomers? Should we reduce evolution/weapon costs? Add more achievements? Add a tutorial? In all honesty, I don't know that answer.
P.S. I know that people are doing an outcry for 'WE NEADZ MOAR TUTORIALZ' but the reality of the gaming community is... we just want to play the game. No one likes being spoonfed information, and while a tutorial is great, most rookies will ignore it. SC2 didn't get popular because of it's tutorial, it was popular because of the different personalities of players in high level play, leagues, SC2 map editor, arcade, and a friendly, welcoming community. In case you didn't know, the tutorial was placed after it's expansion, it was still well-known even before expansion.
EDIT: Last I played, TF2 didn't really have a tutorial either (it could've changed but yeah). My point here is that NS2 doesn't forgive, it's gameplay is punishing, and you need to always be vigilant in a game and be careful. There is never a game where you can relax because every game is essentially competitive.
Funny thing is that most of the mods created were created by people who are either in or were in the competitive scene. Secondly the competitive players are in all honestly the most dedicated PLAYERS of NS2. Most of these players have either 4-6 times as many hours as the other regular player and don't play much of any other game. So does it not make sense to "support" a part of your community that puts in the most time playing the game you created?
You know whats funny ? I remember someone saying the exact same thing before NS1 started to die.
#1.Count all players in ns2
#2.count all competative players in division 123 or how many you have and multiply by 4-6x
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
does 1 or 2 put in most hours to ns2? i have prop 2000 hours played but can still enjoy non competative matches on a big server with the rest of the 95% non competative pub players that likes the game.
I whole heartedly DISAGREE. This is not like the political realm where you have two sides. We all play the same game. Mods for NS1 came from everyone... mostly the average joe. The majority sought after VARIETY and EXPERIMENTATION. Look at siege maps... gorge races.. Granted, even I was in the competitive scene pumping custom server maps for the general public cause it was.... fun.. and exciting. I should add, I continued playing NOT for the competitive scene, but for fun.. even after my after my comp "career". I was interested in creation not BECAUSE i was a competitive player, but I wanted to be create for the player.
The common denominator is the player. With as accessible as the HL1 engine was, you could create stuff beyond Flayra ever imagined and it had very little to do with your gaming "career"
I suggest watching this as it is very relative to the topic of games and the value of competition.