So when exactly are you gonne make the game as good as possible? Stop balancing it. We will get 1 more map somewhere between 2013 - 1015 (im generous so i give you 1+ year to get us Discovery) but during that time can you please optimize the game? take the quarter million and hire someone that can fix ns2. Right now you can barely run 32 players, im not asking for 6v6´s that 5% of the community play im asking for 95% of the rest of us that want a lagfree emersive experience with loads of speed and action not running alone welding rts for 7 mintues alon. there is simply no fun in that.
First up, thank you for contributing to the Shadow tier - We really appreciate it. I understand your upset, but cannot agree fully, and here is why!
Unknown Worlds did not create the NS2WC, your fellow players did! If you do not like the idea, it is a debate you should have with them, not with us. We think it is fantastic that the community has chosen to undertake this endevour, and we are doing our best to help them make the dream a reality. Here is some recently posted information about how the NS2WC works, and how UWE is a helper not an organiser: http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/natural-selection-2-world-championship/
Matchmaking is an active project being worked on by Lucas and Andi. The prototype Hive website is already live, and will be publicised when ready. While you might consider it 'too late' for such a system to be introduced, we do not. There is never a 'too late' for a feature that will improve player's ability to play the game.
I don't understand what you mean by 'us and them' - You will have to give me some more explanation. We have been very open about our current priorities, and what the game plan is. Here is the most recent in depth State of the Game post: http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/state-of-development-september-2013/ - In it, you can find out what is being worked on, and what our plans are. If we don't give you enough information, I am sorry for that, truly. It is our mission to be extremely open and we try very hard to do it. If we don't talk loud enough, often enough and fast enough for you - It is not because we don't want to, but because our throats are hoarse from trying. Our human limits prevent us from telling you what everyone is up to at every moment of every day, and it is the nature of communication that not everything we say will be read, heard, and seen.
yep yep, you're really open and easy to talk to. that's why you did this fire and forget thread http://ausns2.org/showthread.php?689-Open-Letter-to-AusNS2-Admins-Hugh and after everyone complained you made sure to put your fingers in yours ears and yell really loudly until the problem solved itself (hint: it hasn't). maybe as the community relations guy for uwe you should attempt a common discourse instead of typing these long, light on content posts. people are looking to have a conversation with a person, not everything needs to be a formal 3 page letter signed by the ceo.
the reason people are upset is because they feel like the money they donated isn't going where they wanted it to. to me that's like complaining that you gave money to homeless guy and he buys a beer, or giving money to the red cross then complaining they're wasting it on advertising. i don't agree with the complaint (someone that receives money can do whatever they hell they want with it) but at least i understand the common complaint and can respond!
PS. you really should reply to that thread (and take my advice on those wordy emotional posts)
Once upon a time UWE tried to push limits and try for the unattainable to make their dreams happen, now it seems that it's no longer the dream but the business. I guess this is the difference between a work of passion like NS1 and getting the job done like NS2
Now to be fair, if all of their decisions were based purely on a (typical corporate) business standpoint they would just lay off some of the staff.
Sorry artists, but your check will go to a temp dev for performance increases and bug fixes, unless you can design some kickass hats.
I've had faith in the guys for this long, no sense for me to write them off as a sunk investment now, but I am glad I waited on the badges to see their direction from here.
Yes, of course we all do. We wouldnt be wasting our lifes on these fourms otherwise. I just feel that the 30/45k is better spent elsewhere.
So no, i wont be donating.
So don't donate to the ns2wc but donate what you would contribute to a 30k target to reinforcement AGAIN! There is that "elsewhere" option!
UWE released 2 free DLC and are committed to continually improving this 1 time purchase game and asked for donations to be made to help UWE support NS2 in exchange for a few cosmetics and cool gimmicks. You obliged, you wanted to help out. You didn't have to, just like you don't have to do this. Maybe I'll scream and shout and throw a childish tantrum if they release a gorge plushie because the money invested into that project could have gone to giving me 2 extra frames (Which btw, I don't even need on a mediocre machine and yet I'm a decent player).
Jesus, why don't you think that having options is good? Also, if you're so certain the $30k target won't be met, why are you concerned?
Also to everyone who thinks that any funding UWE uses comes "straight from the reinforced program", are you foolish enough to believe that UWE had 0 cash reserves before your kind donations? No. They are using money they generated through sales as well to push for extra sales and to support the community. You might not feel like you benefit it because you're not competitive/interested, but it's the same way as a khamm researches lerk upgrades and you're a gorge. It helps the alien team (our community) but doesn't directly affect you (You're a gorge not a lerk)
1. Marine is boring and typical.
2. Alien is interesting so lets play that.
3. Crap we are getting face stomped.
4. Ok 10 games in a row where I went 0-16, time to quit,
and the marine pogo jumping mechanic, and the AV nerf. But I'm not gonna go there again in depth.
Anyway, I'm not advocating dumbing down the game, quite the contrary when it comes to the marine jumping. In my experience it gives too much of an edge for too little skill (even just plain jumping, not properly executed strafe jumps). Plus it looks fcking stupid.
Also, still no response from the devs about these two matters..
This is a bit of a tricky question for me, to support or not to support. All things considered i don't think UWE has dropped the ball just yet, and to me them sponsoring half the event is to show that they know they need their community. I gladly put in money for shadow badge in hopes of future patches with performance improvements and maybe some balance _TWEAKS_. Ns2 is in quite a good spot right now as far as im concerned, and it's fun to play competitive. The biggest problem I'm seeing coming from a div4 team (and i think same goes for other divs) is a bit the lack of teams in general. The step to take from public to competitive is huge, and you have to re-learn the pace of the game entirely since stuff you do actually starts mattering, being a good aim is not enough.
Yes, an event like this is good publicity and it will hopefully show many others that this game has something special to it, and people will hopefully buy it. But after buying it they join a server, find that they have no idea what they are doing, they get low performance, people running around like headless chickens, mute commanders, getting roflstomped by 1-2 comp players dominating the whole server. like someone mentioned, being in div4, hell being in comp in general pretty much teaches you how to roflstomp pubs. There are a few exceptions ofcourse, but this is to show how big the gap is at the moment.
I have full respect for ANY new team that gets founded, it's truly a tough thing to undertake, and you WILL loose all of your games for a long time before you get the hang of things. Main reason being that the teams that exist are tough as ******* compared to where you come from. yes the gap from premiere divison to div 4 is also huge, but imagine joining in and getting rolled over by karvalakki, the shittiest clan in ns2 still going strong in season 3.. You get a bad taste for the game. It took us forever to learn how to win as marines since we never got so far as to get 2 CC:s or jetpacks and whatnot since we never got past early/mid game from lack of skill. Once we gained skill we had to learn the strategies and so on. This game is not easy on anyone, but for a team that has good spirit it can be helluva rewarding at times, and i do mean that. Haven't had this much fun and adrenaline rushes for years.
Matchmaking will hopefully bring an answer to this long step from public to organized play. However, organizing this event now feels a bit rushed and early. Why should i pay money for the same(ish) top 4 teams flying (again?) to germany and watch same stuff going down again. Knowing that us from div4 have no chance of ever getting close to getting any screentime. Hell we got it tough already, our matches are rarely streamed, when streamed it's not a commentator it's a spectating critic talking bad about us (and the opposing team) for being bad at ns2. Not a great way to motivate the lower div teams of an already tiny scene. Some casters do it right, one guy keeping up the tension and citing whats happeing, then the co-caster throws in some deeper insight in between. Like in real sports. Instead of saying "what the *** is xxxx doing?" it should be "xxxx is doing yyy!" - "if xxx would have done zzzz, things would have gone better". Not saying I'm jealous for not getting streamed or anything, or that we would be playing for fame(LOL?), but showing some love to the lower teams would show also the newcomers and fresh teams that they are respected, wanted and loved for sticking around. A good tool for learning is to watch your own game from a stream afterwards, since the demo system is basically non existant. Watching premier div players battle it out looks easy but you can't just copy them, you need to learn from your own level opponents first. But i digress...
I see this world championship as some sort of emergency advertising for ns2 to get in more players, this time the only difference is that it is NOT UWE doing it for getting sales. It's the community and the comp community itself that loves to see ns2 continue so much they're willing to do something about it and invest their own money in it, instead of whining on forums about performance and balance. Thats some huge dedication right there. These things go hand in hand, more publicity- more players - more money - more fixing. I say if the community pulls this off and keeps ns2 alive until matchmaking comes in and the long awaited performance fixes, i think ns2 will have a chance of being around for a year or two more and hopefully the comp scene will stay healthy and bring in new teams from the pubs. We're getting mighty lonely having only 1-2 equally skilled teams to play over and over again, but we will stay around a while longer just to see where this goes in the near future.
So especially if you are a comp player, i think the right thing to do is to contribute, even if you won't ever come close to being part of the final event.
I just hope it brings enough interest from new people, pub people and gather people to set up more teams. if we suddenly get 10 noob teams in, they would still have a good time playing against each other in a lower division and slowly grow to be the new sauna/archaea/whatnot. Being the only newcomer is tough and many quit from lack of motivation after a while. Also the ensl page is a piece of ***** and impossible to navigate. If community and UWE would also take a merging step here on some level on top of the upcoming matchmaking, being a team would be less of a pain. And get the info out on how to make teams and where to start would be a nice touch for these events, or any streams in general.
I see a huge tendency towards negativity on the forums. Just remember ya'll that there's still a huge amount of people out there who are still having fun, who look forward to updates, events and all the good stuff, not being represented on the forums. That is not to say we are happy with the state things are in right now, but it's still the better experiences you can get from a multiplayer game. What UWE needs to do is to work closer with the community setting this comp stuff going, those are the loyal guys who will donate and stick with this game for years if you cater their needs. The average pub guys get tired at some point, and move on. you can't get adrenaline kicks from pubs after a certain amount of time, but close nsl games can give you sweaty hands two years later. Sponsoring this community driven event is absolutely a step in the right direction.
However; really bad timing on this event. like tallhotblonde said 3 months ago or in 3months would have been more like it. If we're still here 3months from now that is :P
(messy post but i'm multitasking at work, cut me some slack for making dough)
TL:DR
give love to lower div teams, give love to new teams, give love to community, give love to uwe, give love to casters, give money to wasabi.
Peas.
Perhaps to complement this post, it might be worth mentioning that we might have DIVISION FINALS constitute the live play as opposed to the top four? You would have to fly 8 teams then, though...But it would also paint the picture of a deep competitive scene to outgroups if they see that we have several divisions.
Okay, okay - so it might not be possible. But perhaps it's doable in the future.
...when i look at some of the best games, like unreal tournament and counterstrike, ...
It's not because a lot of player played CS that it is a good game. Remember that in marketing, things are built toward the "lowest common IQ" (as TV do it quite well). This is an "accessibility" matter. Basically it means "dumb it down". NS2 isn't in that category i'm afraid, but tends to be more and more lately.
The so called good games had their times because of better graphic or gameplay for a year or two. Plus there were not many games that was a hit, 15 years ago on PC (FPS). But things change fast. Graphics only won't do the trick anymore. Reward or not; interest must be kept high in order to move players. It seems NS2 isn't able to sustain that interest long enough (though the potential is f**king high).
I see OP has some good bullets. But he forgot the "toolkit pack". If you have a good mapping system the community does the rest. Every game that had a good editor (simple, fast, all good stuff), the game did last more than expected. It happen less and less because companies don't want player to make their own games. For NS2 it would have been a great asset because you won't have the "monster issue". What is the monster issue ? If moders can do monsters/opponent in a single player game they can make basically any game.
Sometimes when you play the game and teach the rookie player about this game would be more valuable than donate the money
You have to put that in the context of every part of the world (continent). USA and Australia is easy, English by default.
In Europe there is the language obstacle. Not everybody is fluent with English (UK) or German (beer saucages and Oktoberfest), or French (yes! we do mayonnaise on french fries!!!), or Spanish (pepito mi corazon), Italian (o sole mioooohh!). etc...
And/or not everyone has a microphone. Yes i know they should but here it is.
The time isn't right for a world wide tournament, the game needs a least another few months of efficiency enhancements just to keep the existing small group of online players let alone try to attract the old ones back and attract new ones with another sale over the xmas period if they are smart.
The time isn't right for a world wide tournament, the game needs a least another few months of efficiency enhancements just to keep the existing small group of online players let alone try to attract the old ones back and attract new ones with another sale over the xmas period if they are smart.
Well then it's a good thing this is over 5 months away! There's your few months!
yep yep, you're really open and easy to talk to. that's why you did this fire and forget thread http://ausns2.org/showthread.php?689-Open-Letter-to-AusNS2-Admins-Hugh and after everyone complained you made sure to put your fingers in yours ears and yell really loudly until the problem solved itself (hint: it hasn't). maybe as the community relations guy for uwe you should attempt a common discourse instead of typing these long, light on content posts. people are looking to have a conversation with a person, not everything needs to be a formal 3 page letter signed by the ceo.
the reason people are upset is because they feel like the money they donated isn't going where they wanted it to. to me that's like complaining that you gave money to homeless guy and he buys a beer, or giving money to the red cross then complaining they're wasting it on advertising. i don't agree with the complaint (someone that receives money can do whatever they hell they want with it) but at least i understand the common complaint and can respond!
PS. you really should reply to that thread (and take my advice on those wordy emotional posts)
Yeah i get the feeling there isn't really any more true back and forth communication going on, nothing like we're being heard and them taking right action, i thought hugh was supposed to be all about that but he sounds more like a pr guy now, you only have to read a few threads over there to see what his fellow gamers think of him, this recent hype doesn't help, it's a shame to see where ns2 and uwe are heading, some odd ideas that's for sure.
>>Doesn't want to advertise the game with well-run live event
>>Wants new players to increase the player base.
Must be some new kind of Frozen logic.
I really doubt this tournament will advertise the game at all. The best way to increase the player base is to come back the buyers who don't play anymore, I doubt UWE will sold a lot more copies. However, let's consider the tournament advertise the game (which is totally wrong for me), it is still unbalanced and suffer from frustrating issues, these issues make cry a substantially part of the community so imagine for a newbie.
>>Doesn't want to advertise the game with well-run live event
>>Wants new players to increase the player base.
Must be some new kind of Frozen logic.
I really doubt this tournament will advertise the game at all. The best way to increase the player base is to come back the buyers who don't play anymore, I doubt UWE will sold a lot more copies. However, let's consider the tournament advertise the game (which is totally wrong for me), it is still unbalanced and suffer from frustrating issues, these issues make cry a substantially part of the community so imagine for a newbie.
i genuinely enjoyed reading this comment. not being sarcastic at all, it made me smile. especially the 'make cry' part :d
I've been playing NS2 on the pubs almost every night for a year now. It's good fun.
I don't regret buying it, and I sure don't expect any more from UWE (for my $20).
Fxxk you griefers. YOU're the ones who dropped the ball in my view.
If you want to play "comp", just fxxing do it. UWE don't have to babysit you through it.
I've been playing NS2 on the pubs almost every night for a year now. It's good fun.
I don't regret buying it, and I sure don't expect any more from UWE (for my $20).
Fxxk you griefers. YOU're the ones who dropped the ball in my view.
If you want to play "comp", just fxxing do it. UWE don't have to babysit you through it.
Griefing and playing comp are completely different concepts.
Because some players excel at this game and play in publics doesn't mean they grief.
Non-rookie servers are there for anyone to join. If I join and get an 8KD ratio, then you deal with it or join another server. I play 6v6 through gathers, mixes, and PCWs and I also like to play public. I don't force or demand people play 6v6 with full voice comms all the time and demand them to listen / play like a team. I just join publics and shoot aliens or bite bad guys. Leave us alone, we do nothing bad but apparently kill people a little too often.
>>Doesn't want to advertise the game with well-run live event
>>Wants new players to increase the player base.
Must be some new kind of Frozen logic.
I really doubt this tournament will advertise the game at all. The best way to increase the player base is to come back the buyers who don't play anymore, I doubt UWE will sold a lot more copies. However, let's consider the tournament advertise the game (which is totally wrong for me), it is still unbalanced and suffer from frustrating issues, these issues make cry a substantially part of the community so imagine for a newbie.
It already has advertised the game, you can see here. I honestly don't think advertising on those sites will help it much though, as word of mouth, praise, and discussion will help your sales a lot more as an indie title, IMO. I mean look at the free weekend for instance. They advertised the game freely to thousands of new players during the free weekend, and look at the player counts now. They look like the lowest I've ever seen. I think that speaks for the state of the game.
And I believe the ball was dropped long ago. If you look around NS2 discussions venues around the web, there is an absurd amount of negativity surrounding this game. Whether it's performance complaints, balance, direction of gameplay, etc. The game continues to develop a bad wrap from launching shoddy patches, misleading hype videos, and the list goes on and on. I use to praise this game every change I could get, gifting copies to friends during sales, just look at my name on these forums, but I'm slowly starting to hate it now. It's nothing personal against the devs, but the game has just grown to be such a frustrating experience for me that I'm finding myself playing less and less.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I can grab quotes from beta to launch to current.. Doom sayers have been roughly as consistent as player counts since the beginning.
As for the game supposedly getting worse and worse, that's purely subjective - but i would think that the community and most players in general would disagree with you. (except for those that dislike change at all)
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Sigh, so much negativity could be spared on both the parts of the complainers and UWE. If the game is so upsetting, surprisingly you have the freedom to play other games or to occupy your time with other concerns worth while.
You can always check back after a while and see if it is where you had hoped and like most changes that people want, it will take time, especially with only 6 people.
I would gather that the expectations that players generate in terms of turn around time, is probably set from the mainstream video game industry.
They turning games around from start to finish in a year and then some, they obviously have resources far superior to that of UWE.
Now, imagine if you would use such negative energy into something more constructive or supportive of the NS2 community, I can think of many things that would help do that:
- Provide constructive feedback that adds (not repeat) to discussion in question.
- Spread the word about the game on popular social outlets like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter.
- Use your creativity to make something fun engaging or enriching for the players
- Participating in the Play testers Group to help get these bugs out the door more efficiently and faster.
- Show off game play via Youtube, twitch, etc.
All of these things and more help build a stronger community and player base, which in turn can only contribute to the solution as a whole.
If you truly love NS2 so much, to the point that you don't want to see it fail, then be part of the solution.
Not everyone is so upset or completely satisfied with the game, so to rally people to rile up on a negative view goes against the outcome you want.
~This post is not directed at anyone in particular.
You can always check back after a while and see if it is where you had hoped and like most changes that people want, it will take time, especially with only 6 people.
I would gather that the expectations that players generate in terms of turn around time, is probably set from the mainstream video game industry.
They turning games around from start to finish in a year and then some, they obviously have resources far superior to that of UWE.
The issue isn't about giving UWE time. The issue is about misplaced priorities.
Misplaced priorities that make it so that the game won't grow no matter how hard you try to promote it.
I can grab quotes from beta to launch to current.. Doom sayers have been roughly as consistent as player counts since the beginning.
As for the game supposedly getting worse and worse, that's purely subjective - but i would think that the community and most players in general would disagree with you. (except for those that dislike change at all)
You're being a bit dramatic in saying people are "doom sayers". No one is running around saying UWE is done for, NS2 was a huge failure and their company is gona go under, etc. People have valid complaints, frustrations, feedback, and criticism to give. It's part of the reason these forums exist. Majority of the people posting said discussion want the game to improve and grow, or else they wouldn't be doing it! Maybe it comes off wrong, but I'm sharing how I feel about a game I use to really enjoy and dislike the way it plays at the moment.
The issue isn't about giving UWE time. The issue is about misplaced priorities.
I would assume since they created and support the game, those priorities are for UWE to determine. I doubt anyone would want to hear their friends telling them how to run their life.
Dragging on topic like this for 4+ pages isn't going to make UWE throw up their arms and say. "You know what, they are right, I can't take another duplicate post about the same thing, turn the ship around!"
Back when NS2 was still pre-launch I remember reading about UWE had a goal to make NS2 a real contender in the eSports scene, so here they are supporting that very goal they set so long ago. They are supporting a community organized eSports event which helps UWE both achieve their goal and then some.
This perceived "misplaced priorities" only shows in contrast to the NSWC event even existing. In an alternate universe where the event had it not even been announced, UWE would still be at this exact same point in development. The only difference is the forums having topics complaining about something else instead of the NSWC, likely game related, and the organizers of NSWC would be off doing what they have been doing up until before the announcement. To me, that doesn't sound like progress.
If people's feelings were hurt in light of recent events, going on the bandwagon of "Yeah what that guy said, so I'll say it again" mentality won't improve the situation. Rational thought will help those affected realize the big picture: At the end of the day, NS2 is just a video game they enjoy, which I would hope only represents a very small portion of one's life. ...and if it is much more intimate then that... well that is what therapists are for.
I would assume since they created and support the game, those priorities are for UWE to determine.
Back when NS2 was still pre-launch I remember reading about UWE had a goal to make NS2 a real contender in the eSports scene, so here they are supporting that very goal they set so long ago. They are supporting a community organized eSports event which helps UWE both achieve their goal and then some.
Except the priorities UWE set in order to try and reach their goal of "being a contender in the esports scene" were never achieved. Since their priorities didn't help them reach their goal, you can say they were misplaced.
There is no way you can call a game a contender in the esports scene with only ~800 concurrent players daily.
While debating on the topic may be a futile attempt to make them see what's going on, it certainly doesn't hurt to try.
Also, I will be very impressed if this NS2WC even happens, I don't see them reaching $30k, unless UWE decides to fork over additional money to make the event happen. There are specific reasons why as well and the fact that UWE can't see it is disheartening.
year+ ago the devs were hyping up pvp as if it's going to be the greatest thing ever (1mil tournament, which became indefinitely delayed), but sadly after months of players hating PvP they finally gave up. they hosted their final monthly tournament for $5,000 and literally shut down the PVP servers the night of the tournament. the forum shenanigans over there were amazing, practically got the community manager banned from speaking to the community over a joke video showcasing the shockwave's ability to nearly kill an entire team at huge ranges, through walls and even affecting 4 player models behind you. (his face) once we posted this video, he broke the record for the amount of developer posts a month on those forums by responding to the thread (angrily) 6-9 times in 30 minutes trying to defend his honor, ultimately leading to him not being able to post publicly. l8er
i don't know why I just typed this out, but it's a p great story.
edit: i didn't even point out the joke of the video. the night before this video, a bunch of people were complaining about Shockwave on twitch chat, and he came in and said "It's easily counterable guys, just spread out" (which you can't do due to how the map is designed). shockwave(spirit bomb) just inches closer and closer to you and there's nothing you can do about it until you're dead
First up, thank you for contributing to the Shadow tier - We really appreciate it. I understand your upset, but cannot agree fully, and here is why!
Unknown Worlds did not create the NS2WC, your fellow players did! If you do not like the idea, it is a debate you should have with them, not with us. We think it is fantastic that the community has chosen to undertake this endevour, and we are doing our best to help them make the dream a reality. Here is some recently posted information about how the NS2WC works, and how UWE is a helper not an organiser: http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/natural-selection-2-world-championship/
Matchmaking is an active project being worked on by Lucas and Andi. The prototype Hive website is already live, and will be publicised when ready. While you might consider it 'too late' for such a system to be introduced, we do not. There is never a 'too late' for a feature that will improve player's ability to play the game.
I don't understand what you mean by 'us and them' - You will have to give me some more explanation. We have been very open about our current priorities, and what the game plan is. Here is the most recent in depth State of the Game post: http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/state-of-development-september-2013/ - In it, you can find out what is being worked on, and what our plans are. If we don't give you enough information, I am sorry for that, truly. It is our mission to be extremely open and we try very hard to do it. If we don't talk loud enough, often enough and fast enough for you - It is not because we don't want to, but because our throats are hoarse from trying. Our human limits prevent us from telling you what everyone is up to at every moment of every day, and it is the nature of communication that not everything we say will be read, heard, and seen.
@Hugh You seriosly dont understand why ppl are upset about the fact you putting 30k into the tourney?
The money donated was the development of NS2 (or perhaps other games at a stretch) it was certainly not to help fund a global comp for a game that doesn't really even have proper local comps.
Ppl can argue all they want about this money not actually coming from that donated...but the reality is it all comes from teh same purse, that 30k could be better spent.
This is why the number of ppl that play this game keeps dwindling, I sure as fuck would not want money I donated to UWE to go into funding a tourney.
The money would be better invested on getting 4 months work on game dev done (I know dev is not stopping as a result..but think about being able to get another coder on the team for even 4 months (assuming your paying generously at ~90k).
The issues that plague the game now are the same ones that plagued us during the beta, its not accessible to new players and focuses too much on appeasing the comp players.
Just look at the skulk movement as a great example of how something that the good players find easy...as being a massive deterant for most new players.
It really saddens me to see this game falling over less than 12 months after launch...but it is indeed almot dead.
Without growing the casual gamer base NS2 will die...it appears that UWE have the misguided belief that comp play is what draws ppl to a game.
This is wrong, casual play being fun is what attracts more player. The comp scene only makes up a small % of the player base...and if you dont have a growing casual scene then you will have a dying scene all together (though teh comp scene will try to hold out well past the games use by (look at TFC)).
I am a little annoyed at the attitude of UWE on this, sure it may have been a result of the old NS1 comp/die hard that NS@ got funded to begin with...but the games player base wont grow unless the casual scene is moved to be the primary focus.
This whole skill based movement approach does nothing to help the accesibility of a game.
CS has no real skill based movement yet comp players still flock...so this worry about comp players getting bored is unfounded and misguided.
Worry more about attracting new players, then having them enjoy the game enough that they want to play in a more organised format. This will then lead to more comp players.
Its a shame that the calls to make the game more user friendly are ignored in favour of things such as adding complexity to movement so that comp/exp players can get the speed/agility/etc that the classes really need.
I am sorry but this is not really that different to giving more experienced players a base unit with higher stats....it does nothing but increase the gap between new and experienced player...which is a bad thing as it puts off new payers.
This game was stillborn competitively as soon as they released it in such a terrible state of balance and performance. That 'enhanced modability' was really useful when half the playerbase deleted the game forever within two weeks due to awful performance. Pretty sure like 80% of the people who were remotely interested in playing this competitively stopped playing in November 2012, including basically all the old NS1 comp players in NA.
year+ ago the devs were hyping up pvp as if it's going to be the greatest thing ever (1mil tournament, which became indefinitely delayed), but sadly after months of players hating PvP they finally gave up. they hosted their final monthly tournament for $5,000 and literally shut down the PVP servers the night of the tournament.
In my opinion, the best decision they made, since the uniquely defining quality of the game that attracted me was the open world.
I play Firefall regularly and keep checking a lot of the game, but where you get the bankrupt statement from baffles me. Yes, they did fire some people, on the other hand they are still hiring new people.
Comments
So when exactly are you gonne make the game as good as possible? Stop balancing it. We will get 1 more map somewhere between 2013 - 1015 (im generous so i give you 1+ year to get us Discovery) but during that time can you please optimize the game? take the quarter million and hire someone that can fix ns2. Right now you can barely run 32 players, im not asking for 6v6´s that 5% of the community play im asking for 95% of the rest of us that want a lagfree emersive experience with loads of speed and action not running alone welding rts for 7 mintues alon. there is simply no fun in that.
yep yep, you're really open and easy to talk to. that's why you did this fire and forget thread http://ausns2.org/showthread.php?689-Open-Letter-to-AusNS2-Admins-Hugh and after everyone complained you made sure to put your fingers in yours ears and yell really loudly until the problem solved itself (hint: it hasn't). maybe as the community relations guy for uwe you should attempt a common discourse instead of typing these long, light on content posts. people are looking to have a conversation with a person, not everything needs to be a formal 3 page letter signed by the ceo.
the reason people are upset is because they feel like the money they donated isn't going where they wanted it to. to me that's like complaining that you gave money to homeless guy and he buys a beer, or giving money to the red cross then complaining they're wasting it on advertising. i don't agree with the complaint (someone that receives money can do whatever they hell they want with it) but at least i understand the common complaint and can respond!
PS. you really should reply to that thread (and take my advice on those wordy emotional posts)
Now to be fair, if all of their decisions were based purely on a (typical corporate) business standpoint they would just lay off some of the staff.
Sorry artists, but your check will go to a temp dev for performance increases and bug fixes, unless you can design some kickass hats.
I've had faith in the guys for this long, no sense for me to write them off as a sunk investment now, but I am glad I waited on the badges to see their direction from here.
So don't donate to the ns2wc but donate what you would contribute to a 30k target to reinforcement AGAIN! There is that "elsewhere" option!
UWE released 2 free DLC and are committed to continually improving this 1 time purchase game and asked for donations to be made to help UWE support NS2 in exchange for a few cosmetics and cool gimmicks. You obliged, you wanted to help out. You didn't have to, just like you don't have to do this. Maybe I'll scream and shout and throw a childish tantrum if they release a gorge plushie because the money invested into that project could have gone to giving me 2 extra frames (Which btw, I don't even need on a mediocre machine and yet I'm a decent player).
Jesus, why don't you think that having options is good? Also, if you're so certain the $30k target won't be met, why are you concerned?
Also to everyone who thinks that any funding UWE uses comes "straight from the reinforced program", are you foolish enough to believe that UWE had 0 cash reserves before your kind donations? No. They are using money they generated through sales as well to push for extra sales and to support the community. You might not feel like you benefit it because you're not competitive/interested, but it's the same way as a khamm researches lerk upgrades and you're a gorge. It helps the alien team (our community) but doesn't directly affect you (You're a gorge not a lerk)
Yeah that's a tough question but I think it comes back to this:
and the marine pogo jumping mechanic, and the AV nerf. But I'm not gonna go there again in depth.
Anyway, I'm not advocating dumbing down the game, quite the contrary when it comes to the marine jumping. In my experience it gives too much of an edge for too little skill (even just plain jumping, not properly executed strafe jumps). Plus it looks fcking stupid.
Also, still no response from the devs about these two matters..
Perhaps to complement this post, it might be worth mentioning that we might have DIVISION FINALS constitute the live play as opposed to the top four? You would have to fly 8 teams then, though...But it would also paint the picture of a deep competitive scene to outgroups if they see that we have several divisions.
Okay, okay - so it might not be possible. But perhaps it's doable in the future.
Carrots.
It's not because a lot of player played CS that it is a good game. Remember that in marketing, things are built toward the "lowest common IQ" (as TV do it quite well). This is an "accessibility" matter. Basically it means "dumb it down". NS2 isn't in that category i'm afraid, but tends to be more and more lately.
The so called good games had their times because of better graphic or gameplay for a year or two. Plus there were not many games that was a hit, 15 years ago on PC (FPS). But things change fast. Graphics only won't do the trick anymore. Reward or not; interest must be kept high in order to move players. It seems NS2 isn't able to sustain that interest long enough (though the potential is f**king high).
I see OP has some good bullets. But he forgot the "toolkit pack". If you have a good mapping system the community does the rest. Every game that had a good editor (simple, fast, all good stuff), the game did last more than expected. It happen less and less because companies don't want player to make their own games. For NS2 it would have been a great asset because you won't have the "monster issue". What is the monster issue ? If moders can do monsters/opponent in a single player game they can make basically any game.
You have to put that in the context of every part of the world (continent). USA and Australia is easy, English by default.
In Europe there is the language obstacle. Not everybody is fluent with English (UK) or German (beer saucages and Oktoberfest), or French (yes! we do mayonnaise on french fries!!!), or Spanish (pepito mi corazon), Italian (o sole mioooohh!). etc...
And/or not everyone has a microphone. Yes i know they should but here it is.
Well then it's a good thing this is over 5 months away! There's your few months!
>>Wants new players to increase the player base.
Must be some new kind of Frozen logic.
Yeah i get the feeling there isn't really any more true back and forth communication going on, nothing like we're being heard and them taking right action, i thought hugh was supposed to be all about that but he sounds more like a pr guy now, you only have to read a few threads over there to see what his fellow gamers think of him, this recent hype doesn't help, it's a shame to see where ns2 and uwe are heading, some odd ideas that's for sure.
I really doubt this tournament will advertise the game at all. The best way to increase the player base is to come back the buyers who don't play anymore, I doubt UWE will sold a lot more copies. However, let's consider the tournament advertise the game (which is totally wrong for me), it is still unbalanced and suffer from frustrating issues, these issues make cry a substantially part of the community so imagine for a newbie.
i genuinely enjoyed reading this comment. not being sarcastic at all, it made me smile. especially the 'make cry' part :d
I don't regret buying it, and I sure don't expect any more from UWE (for my $20).
Fxxk you griefers. YOU're the ones who dropped the ball in my view.
If you want to play "comp", just fxxing do it. UWE don't have to babysit you through it.
Griefing and playing comp are completely different concepts.
Because some players excel at this game and play in publics doesn't mean they grief.
Non-rookie servers are there for anyone to join. If I join and get an 8KD ratio, then you deal with it or join another server. I play 6v6 through gathers, mixes, and PCWs and I also like to play public. I don't force or demand people play 6v6 with full voice comms all the time and demand them to listen / play like a team. I just join publics and shoot aliens or bite bad guys. Leave us alone, we do nothing bad but apparently kill people a little too often.
It already has advertised the game, you can see here. I honestly don't think advertising on those sites will help it much though, as word of mouth, praise, and discussion will help your sales a lot more as an indie title, IMO. I mean look at the free weekend for instance. They advertised the game freely to thousands of new players during the free weekend, and look at the player counts now. They look like the lowest I've ever seen. I think that speaks for the state of the game.
And I believe the ball was dropped long ago. If you look around NS2 discussions venues around the web, there is an absurd amount of negativity surrounding this game. Whether it's performance complaints, balance, direction of gameplay, etc. The game continues to develop a bad wrap from launching shoddy patches, misleading hype videos, and the list goes on and on. I use to praise this game every change I could get, gifting copies to friends during sales, just look at my name on these forums, but I'm slowly starting to hate it now. It's nothing personal against the devs, but the game has just grown to be such a frustrating experience for me that I'm finding myself playing less and less.
As for the game supposedly getting worse and worse, that's purely subjective - but i would think that the community and most players in general would disagree with you. (except for those that dislike change at all)
You can always check back after a while and see if it is where you had hoped and like most changes that people want, it will take time, especially with only 6 people.
I would gather that the expectations that players generate in terms of turn around time, is probably set from the mainstream video game industry.
They turning games around from start to finish in a year and then some, they obviously have resources far superior to that of UWE.
Now, imagine if you would use such negative energy into something more constructive or supportive of the NS2 community, I can think of many things that would help do that:
- Provide constructive feedback that adds (not repeat) to discussion in question.
- Spread the word about the game on popular social outlets like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter.
- Use your creativity to make something fun engaging or enriching for the players
- Participating in the Play testers Group to help get these bugs out the door more efficiently and faster.
- Show off game play via Youtube, twitch, etc.
All of these things and more help build a stronger community and player base, which in turn can only contribute to the solution as a whole.
If you truly love NS2 so much, to the point that you don't want to see it fail, then be part of the solution.
Not everyone is so upset or completely satisfied with the game, so to rally people to rile up on a negative view goes against the outcome you want.
~This post is not directed at anyone in particular.
The issue isn't about giving UWE time. The issue is about misplaced priorities.
Misplaced priorities that make it so that the game won't grow no matter how hard you try to promote it.
You're being a bit dramatic in saying people are "doom sayers". No one is running around saying UWE is done for, NS2 was a huge failure and their company is gona go under, etc. People have valid complaints, frustrations, feedback, and criticism to give. It's part of the reason these forums exist. Majority of the people posting said discussion want the game to improve and grow, or else they wouldn't be doing it! Maybe it comes off wrong, but I'm sharing how I feel about a game I use to really enjoy and dislike the way it plays at the moment.
I would assume since they created and support the game, those priorities are for UWE to determine. I doubt anyone would want to hear their friends telling them how to run their life.
Dragging on topic like this for 4+ pages isn't going to make UWE throw up their arms and say. "You know what, they are right, I can't take another duplicate post about the same thing, turn the ship around!"
Back when NS2 was still pre-launch I remember reading about UWE had a goal to make NS2 a real contender in the eSports scene, so here they are supporting that very goal they set so long ago. They are supporting a community organized eSports event which helps UWE both achieve their goal and then some.
This perceived "misplaced priorities" only shows in contrast to the NSWC event even existing. In an alternate universe where the event had it not even been announced, UWE would still be at this exact same point in development. The only difference is the forums having topics complaining about something else instead of the NSWC, likely game related, and the organizers of NSWC would be off doing what they have been doing up until before the announcement. To me, that doesn't sound like progress.
If people's feelings were hurt in light of recent events, going on the bandwagon of "Yeah what that guy said, so I'll say it again" mentality won't improve the situation. Rational thought will help those affected realize the big picture: At the end of the day, NS2 is just a video game they enjoy, which I would hope only represents a very small portion of one's life. ...and if it is much more intimate then that... well that is what therapists are for.
Except the priorities UWE set in order to try and reach their goal of "being a contender in the esports scene" were never achieved. Since their priorities didn't help them reach their goal, you can say they were misplaced.
There is no way you can call a game a contender in the esports scene with only ~800 concurrent players daily.
While debating on the topic may be a futile attempt to make them see what's going on, it certainly doesn't hurt to try.
Also, I will be very impressed if this NS2WC even happens, I don't see them reaching $30k, unless UWE decides to fork over additional money to make the event happen. There are specific reasons why as well and the fact that UWE can't see it is disheartening.
year+ ago the devs were hyping up pvp as if it's going to be the greatest thing ever (1mil tournament, which became indefinitely delayed), but sadly after months of players hating PvP they finally gave up. they hosted their final monthly tournament for $5,000 and literally shut down the PVP servers the night of the tournament. the forum shenanigans over there were amazing, practically got the community manager banned from speaking to the community over a joke video showcasing the shockwave's ability to nearly kill an entire team at huge ranges, through walls and even affecting 4 player models behind you. (his face) once we posted this video, he broke the record for the amount of developer posts a month on those forums by responding to the thread (angrily) 6-9 times in 30 minutes trying to defend his honor, ultimately leading to him not being able to post publicly. l8er
i don't know why I just typed this out, but it's a p great story.
edit: i didn't even point out the joke of the video. the night before this video, a bunch of people were complaining about Shockwave on twitch chat, and he came in and said "It's easily counterable guys, just spread out" (which you can't do due to how the map is designed). shockwave(spirit bomb) just inches closer and closer to you and there's nothing you can do about it until you're dead
edit2: last I heard they're going bankrupt, but who could believe that after their $1million dollar Firefall Bus (that can't be driven on the road) or the $1million dollar statue
@Hugh You seriosly dont understand why ppl are upset about the fact you putting 30k into the tourney?
The money donated was the development of NS2 (or perhaps other games at a stretch) it was certainly not to help fund a global comp for a game that doesn't really even have proper local comps.
Ppl can argue all they want about this money not actually coming from that donated...but the reality is it all comes from teh same purse, that 30k could be better spent.
This is why the number of ppl that play this game keeps dwindling, I sure as fuck would not want money I donated to UWE to go into funding a tourney.
The money would be better invested on getting 4 months work on game dev done (I know dev is not stopping as a result..but think about being able to get another coder on the team for even 4 months (assuming your paying generously at ~90k).
The issues that plague the game now are the same ones that plagued us during the beta, its not accessible to new players and focuses too much on appeasing the comp players.
Just look at the skulk movement as a great example of how something that the good players find easy...as being a massive deterant for most new players.
It really saddens me to see this game falling over less than 12 months after launch...but it is indeed almot dead.
Without growing the casual gamer base NS2 will die...it appears that UWE have the misguided belief that comp play is what draws ppl to a game.
This is wrong, casual play being fun is what attracts more player. The comp scene only makes up a small % of the player base...and if you dont have a growing casual scene then you will have a dying scene all together (though teh comp scene will try to hold out well past the games use by (look at TFC)).
I am a little annoyed at the attitude of UWE on this, sure it may have been a result of the old NS1 comp/die hard that NS@ got funded to begin with...but the games player base wont grow unless the casual scene is moved to be the primary focus.
This whole skill based movement approach does nothing to help the accesibility of a game.
CS has no real skill based movement yet comp players still flock...so this worry about comp players getting bored is unfounded and misguided.
Worry more about attracting new players, then having them enjoy the game enough that they want to play in a more organised format. This will then lead to more comp players.
Its a shame that the calls to make the game more user friendly are ignored in favour of things such as adding complexity to movement so that comp/exp players can get the speed/agility/etc that the classes really need.
I am sorry but this is not really that different to giving more experienced players a base unit with higher stats....it does nothing but increase the gap between new and experienced player...which is a bad thing as it puts off new payers.
I play Firefall regularly and keep checking a lot of the game, but where you get the bankrupt statement from baffles me. Yes, they did fire some people, on the other hand they are still hiring new people.