An open letter to UWE- you've dropped the ball...

tallhotblondetallhotblonde Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Posts: 216 Fully active user
Dear UWE
After the huge disappointment of the big announcement, the dwindling player base and an ever more stale competitive scene - I wanted to briefly express my views on why you have got things so, so wrong.

- firstly, a world championship? The competitive scene is the most inactive it's ever been! The reason? A poorly run, boring league ran on the ensl that should have been ran THROUGH the UWE site and have been more open to the community. The admins there don't listen and while I respect their work, it's not enough. Hundreds have offered help and it falls on death ears. We need to stop pleasing the top 12 and bring in new players. I play in div 2 but fuck, I got no chance of even getting to the play offs, let alone the other 1000 people hungry for something new.

-this brings me to sabot/matchmaking. In my opinion, this is the best possible mechanic that will make ns2 public/competitive merge and thrive. It bridges the gap, shows new players how ns2 is supposed to be played. BUT LETS BE HONEST. By the time (if ever) this is released it will be too late!

- and finally, this "us and them" stuff needs to stop. We are all you have left UWE and there are less and less of us each day. Be more open, talk to us, we have bought the game and then donated double that again and we are feeling pretty stupid right now. Start a poll, a open discussion, ask the community what we want you to focus on. I can assure you that a new map, female marines and world championship is at the bottom of the list. Everyone knows you are at a crossroads with ns2 right now, the question is, will I be playing ns2 in 2014? If it stays this way no. And Ill wish I never donated to ns1, preordered ns2 and donated to the reinforcement program. For god sake UWE at least let us know the game plan....
Electr0[Deleted User]KenshikenmushookeesBlarney_StoneSolidSpiderOkxydRadimaXRetracedoplus0nia090913Zomb3hDaphistoTmpltSynVisionsDeadite AshSnXDarkflameQNeoQuaker1kalakujaKeizoSjNSide1Bu2Rnz9Mattk50
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Comments

  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! AustraliaMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Posts: 2,130 mod
    orums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/132740/tune-in-for-something-of-reasonable-size-ausns2-org-league
    Comp scene worse it ever was? ESKUSME?
    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

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  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Members Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123
    edited October 2013
    Electr0 wrote: »
    I've noticed since early beta it's almost like we have two communities, those at uwe, the playtesters, casters and top competitive players, then theres the rest of us, the majority of normal players who bought the game and just want to have fun with a game that runs well and is balanced, something that isn't so unforgiving that the winning team dominates and the losing one wishes to give up at any moment.

    The majority should have been the focus, if the competitive stuff was left as just a bit of fun for those interested i don't think anyone would be bothered but there seems to have been a clear push for that at the expense of a fun game for all, there's a reason ns2 has lost so many players.

    In no particular order these are the issues i think the game has had since release.
    • Balance
    • Performance
    • Difficulty and learning curve
    • Lack of maps and content in general
    • No combat as standard along with the normal game
    • No matchmaking
    • No stats or rewards, games just end and seem meaningless, it's not enough to keep todays gamers playing
    • Game play feels chaotic and hopeless at times
    • Many games either end too soon or go on too long
    • Mods break on even small updates
    • The focus on competitive rather than public

    since when were people motivated by 'rewards' ? (to play a game)

    because the cod game was so awfully boring with no variation, you needed a mindnumbing 'grind' as motivation to play?

    when i look at some of the best games, like unreal tournament and counterstrike, there was no reward necessary - the reward was improving at the game and being able to kick more ass. is the current generation of gamers so distracted and impatient that they can't be driven purely to improve any more? - it's a game/hobby, fun is all the reward you should hope for - and if you want reward badges then maybe you should play an MMO forever more.

    i think counterstrike:GO has rewards, but they're certainly not a motivator to play... because the game has all of the competitiveness and thrilling gameplay of CSS. not to mention that valve are a gigantic company and they can afford to be frivolous with their development time.

    additionally, on the subject of the game feeling hopeless or steep learning curve, take a look at starcraft 2. challenge is a good thing, and i think NS2 brings challenge and fun for casuals together - i was certainly having fun when i was a noob.

    balance, performance and lack of content are non-issues because every game in history has struggled with them - especially indie games.
    JuCCizenefMMZ_Torak
  • Electr0Electr0 Members Join Date: 2011-10-31 Member: 130337Posts: 349
    edited October 2013
    When it comes to lack of content im comparing to most other games, usually we have single player and multiplayer, about 8 to 12 maps on average plus a variety of game modes.

    I think ns2 was released with about 5 maps, two of those were done by the community but made official, not ideal and it's taken us a year to get up to a reasonable amount, we have the one mode ignoring the few mods, combat being the only real popular one, im not sure it's good enough for a purely multiplayer game.

    Im not hugely fussed about rewards like in cod but i do see how it adds something thats expected by many, at least it keeps people coming back and shows some sort of progress, even a good list of stats would be nice, small cosmetic things like badges, skins etc wouldn't hurt as long as they're sensible.
  • DestherDesther Members Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Posts: 520 Advanced user
    tarquinbb wrote: »

    since when were people motivated by 'rewards' ?

    because the cod game was so awfully boring with no variation, you needed a mindnumbing 'grind' as motivation to play?

    when i look at some of the best games, like unreal tournament and counterstrike, there was no reward necessary - the reward was improving at the game and being able to kick more ass. is the current generation of gamers so distracted and impatient that they can't be driven purely to improve any more? - it's a game/hobby, fun is all the reward you should hope for - and if you want reward badges then maybe you should play an MMO forever more.

    The funny part is that those type of games (including ns2) are now nowhere near as popular as they once were. If you look at current active players, in highest to lowest order it goes: ut -> ut2004 -> ut3, that's REVERSE date order.

    As much as we all hate drip-feeding unlocks, they are a useful mechanic to keep players engaged, which will inevitably also increase their competence and hopefully give them more incentive to stick with a game, even if the unlocks are just visual/cosmetic.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Members Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123
    also, probably the biggest reason there aren't many people playing NS2 is that there aren't many people playing it.

    there are soooo many games out there that most people just choose one that other people play, because more people playing usually means better game as well as the comfort of being part of a bigger community (i'm sure none of us want to repeat that sad day where our old favourite online game stopped having enough players to get a decent game).


    an NS2 tournament is probably the most effective way at courting the gaming community.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Members Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123
    Desther wrote: »
    tarquinbb wrote: »

    since when were people motivated by 'rewards' ?

    because the cod game was so awfully boring with no variation, you needed a mindnumbing 'grind' as motivation to play?

    when i look at some of the best games, like unreal tournament and counterstrike, there was no reward necessary - the reward was improving at the game and being able to kick more ass. is the current generation of gamers so distracted and impatient that they can't be driven purely to improve any more? - it's a game/hobby, fun is all the reward you should hope for - and if you want reward badges then maybe you should play an MMO forever more.

    The funny part is that those type of games (including ns2) are now nowhere near as popular as they once were. If you look at current active players, in highest to lowest order it goes: ut -> ut2004 -> ut3, that's REVERSE date order.

    As much as we all hate drip-feeding unlocks, they are a useful mechanic to keep players engaged, which will inevitably also increase their competence and hopefully give them more incentive to stick with a game, even if the unlocks are just visual/cosmetic.

    imo ns2 is now more popular in terms of loyal community than it ever was - the player count was always going to be super inflated at the start.

    yes, UT died - sad times - but i'm not surprised that ut2004 and ut3 are less popular because they just weren't as good as UT nor were they released in a good year. the only thing ut2004 did 'special' was vehicles in onslaught - the rest was old news - and ut3 was years later than it's heyday.

    i think ns2 is future-proof. there's nothing else like it on the market. as long as it keeps getting support by the devs and community, i think it will maintain a reasonable playerbase for an indie game. even though i'm personally disappointed that the playerbase isn't larger, but like i said before - tournaments and exposure are the best way to change that.
    Zalamael
  • CrushaKCrushaK Members, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    Desther wrote: »
    The funny part is that those type of games (including ns2) are now nowhere near as popular as they once were. If you look at current active players, in highest to lowest order it goes: ut -> ut2004 -> ut3, that's REVERSE date order.

    As much as we all hate drip-feeding unlocks, they are a useful mechanic to keep players engaged, which will inevitably also increase their competence and hopefully give them more incentive to stick with a game, even if the unlocks are just visual/cosmetic.

    What are you trying to show by mentioning the popularity of the UT series here? If anything, it only counters your actual argument.
    The original UT was always super popular because there were quite a few players who didn't like the new, faster movement of UT2k4 and thus stick with the previous title. Plus it has a huge backlog of modding and is just quick fun on any LAN. (That's a problem with NS2 anyway: it takes about 4 minutes between starting the game and actually getting into a match due to loading times, server browser, etc. In UT(2k4) does it take me 30 seconds to get into a multiplayer game, making it a lot more feasible for a quick match in between.)

    I personally joined the UT series with the 2k3 iteration and stuck with 2k4 and modding for years after its release. To many of us UT2k4 players was UT3 a big disappointment because
    - the movement was a lot slower again (jumping feels like some awkward heavy armor space marine)
    - the skill ceiling got lowered (a good player could take on any vehicle in 2k4 whereas you are screwed as footsoldier against vehicles most of the time in UT3)
    - you always had the feeling that the game was clearly developed for consoles first
    - post-processing ruined your vision and made everything look brown compared to the colorful lightness of 2k4
    - modding the game got harder than in 2k4, even though modding has always been a vital part of the UT series
    - the level design felt shallow and many maps were clearly designed around showing off gimmicky new engine features rather than providing good gameplay (most Warfare maps had a linear linksetup, even though every UT2k4 Onslaught mapper knows that this is an absolute no-go)
    - most of the new mechanics felt rather gimmicky (the Orb in Warfare was hated by many because it replaces engaging long fights between positions with fast cheese tactics)
    - due to the introduction of Necris and their vehicles, a game that is supposed to be perfectly symmetric often ended up with asymmetric maps and gameplay balance
    - you could control other player's AVRiL missile with your own AVRiL launcher - wtf?!
    - pointlessly dark campaign replaced fun tournament context and ended with cliffhanger

    UT3 never surpassed UT2k4 from the start because it seemed just worse than its predecessor. And the community knew that.
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  • frantixfrantix Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184063Posts: 98
    They made a mistake by overhyping the announcement, yes, but that's it - the idea to support the competitive scene is good, and if you're losing them or don't give them a goal to persue, you'll eventually lose them and then there are only casual players left, no casting, no tournaments at all, all people that want to play in a good team will quit, there is no motivation for good players anymore (no good team to join), game is "dead". You don't have to donate if you don't want to - people will get their money back. This is not planned and organised by a professional team that gets paid by a big publisher, it is organised by people who put their spare time into it, only supported by UWE. The game is still being worked on as they said a thousand times, there is no reason why fans should not try to organise a tournament, and why should this affect the game development in any way? There is so much complaining and constant unjust blaiming in the last months that I think this is meanwhile the biggest threat and problem of NS2, not performance, balance or missing matchmaking.
    JuCCiMasterBat
  • ForlornHopeForlornHope Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18675Posts: 226 Fully active user
    frantix wrote: »
    They made a mistake by overhyping the announcement, yes, but that's it

    No, that is not all it is. UWE are putting up 50% of the cash to fund this too.
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  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    orums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/132740/tune-in-for-something-of-reasonable-size-ausns2-org-league
    Comp scene worse it ever was? ESKUSME?

    The tiny portion that is the aus community doesn't really make up for it tbh.
    76561197996992409.png
    Zomb3h
  • frantixfrantix Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184063Posts: 98
    edited October 2013
    @ForlornHope: Still, I don't see how this affects game development in a negative way.

    @Ghosthree3: It is tiny, compared to Legue of Legends or Counter Strike, so what? At least they are doing something, they build something up.

    @MrRadicalEd: I say you need to support it, especially if it is small and fragile like ours. And you say that the casual players should be supported? And how else? By fixing, improving the game, adding content, which UWE is doing all the time for free. I admit that the game can still be improved on many spots, but I see too many complaints and little appreciation for UWEs constant efforts. People are too fast with blaiming, chose harsh words, and many are even wrong or not thought through to the end. It must be very hard to stay motivated, when you have to read stuff like this all the time.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    You might find it harsh, but I somewhat hope the 30'000$ will not be raised in 30 days. And instead it will go into the Reinforced Programm. Hell if that tournament is beeing held, I wan't my Reinforced donation back. Don't tell me, that it's an entirely different fund pool: UWE is going to sponsor the other half needed, thats another 30'000$. Cash that has also been raised with the Reinforced Programm. I didn't donate for some tournament I'm completly NOT interested in. I donated because I wanted the game to be more enjoyable and I thought UWE need donation to keep the lights on in their studio.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
    Steve123MCDarkflameQMattk50
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AUMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Posts: 515 mod
    Who ever said A) UWE was paying half or B) was paying 30,000 dollars?

    UWE is funding the studio rental + the twitch coverage. We don't know how much it is. Please stick to the facts.
    frantixelodea
  • chikotochikoto Members Join Date: 2013-02-15 Member: 183078Posts: 18
    Who ever said A) UWE was paying half or B) was paying 30,000 dollars?

    UWE said it here
    We're contributing 50% of the funding for a 100% community organised @NS2 world championship
    _INTER_Zomb3hDarkflameQFrizzlecat
  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    Thanks chikoto, I was already searching the sources. Aswell here:
    http://www.gofundme.com/ns2worldchampionship
    Unknown Worlds, the developers of Natural Selection 2, have committed to directly paying for the ESLTV studio in Cologne, and the front page takeover of Twitch.TV. That is two of the three major expenses. The third is travel: And that is where we, the NS2 community, must come together and match the Unknown Worlds contribution.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Members Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Posts: 716 Fully active user
    edited October 2013
    Well, frantix, I am of the opinion that there is no "us" and "them"- being casual versus competitive. I view all players equally, and that the only distinguishing factor is the focus on personal achievement. A competitive player can take any old game and elevate it to a sense of professionalism.

    The way I see it is this; its not for who you tailor the game for, but what you tailor the game for. The distinction between the players and their motivations need to be acknowledged.

    I say these things from experience. With the NS1 clan I was in, we had a farm team that brought in prospective players whom wanted to try their hand at competitive games. From the farm team, we grew our roster. I observed the full cycle from my position there. "Regular" players whom aspire and associate themselves with highly organized games will learn(just like learning the game for first time) and adapt to new concepts and rules-- not that all different when you join public games; learning the game for the first time.

    The game was the same.. but these players were cultivated with strategies that were developed after many hours of play. The take away is.. the game is the same for everyone
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Members Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Posts: 716 Fully active user
    So dare I ask? What if we crowdsource 30k for improvements to the game- no new content, but to secure some fixes. Would our funds be matched?
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
    Frizzlecat
  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    So dare I ask? What if we crowdsource 30k for improvements to the game- no new content, but to secure some fixes. Would our funds be matched?
    If I understood your question right:
    crowdsource for improvements to the game - no new content => Reinforced Programm
    Would our funds be matched? => Reinforced Programm currently at 160'000$+
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Members Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Posts: 716 Fully active user
    edited October 2013
    Something to give us leverage to say "we want these things first"; rather than what is on their agenda

    .. and I understood the reinforced program to recoup costs from the last big content update.
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
    kibblesandbitsSjN
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