Where is 258? - Natural Selection 2

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  • CrushaKCrushaK Members, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    Paajtor wrote: »
    Andi has made some subtle balance changes
    I guess (hope) this includes some tweaks to the marine strafe-jump?

    Probably alien nerfs. :>


    (Well, my guess would be that at least Gorge Tunnels are back to requiring research at the Hive but without Biomass requirement, as in previous Beta Test mod versions. People were just not happy with Gorges being able to fortify any position in the map with instant reinforcements from the Hive right away from the start of the game.)
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • Sharp-ShooterSharp-Shooter Members Join Date: 2011-05-11 Member: 98364Posts: 263 Fully active user
    i cant believe some people are still using 32bit, i switched to 64bit and sticked with it since 2006, please, switch to 64bit and if you need to buy memory, please do so, its 20 dollars for an extra gig...cmon, dont upgrade it just for the game
    carnage-wp-antd00d
  • HusarHusar Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169523Posts: 137 Advanced user
    Zali wrote: »
    Problem: bad coding.

    It may be my imagination but every time hear this standard chitchat it sounds like an accusation as if the developers don't know what they are doing and that they should have done it right just from the beginning. Why are people oversimplifying the problems and hurdles of programming? In a complex software like a game engine there are so much dependencies and uncovered and therefor undiscovered combinations of states which lead to bugs like the '32bit problem'. You cannot test everything to make 100% bug free code because humans DO mistakes and that will never change. NEVER EVER. Of course there are test patterns you can run your code through but it doesn't cover the whole code (because those tests have to be made or managed also by humans) and there will still be white spots of bugs among the code which just appears under certain circumstances. Fact is you really have to hunt down that damn buggy code! And there is no one-size-fits-all-tool. You have to be creative about the it. Some problems may be easy to find because they can be allocated to one specific module of code. But boy, some just are a pain in the ass because the problem is scattering all around the code and you simply don't know which thread of dependency you should follow which might cause the problems. So that is (at least what I think) why @Max did the visualization of the RAM allocation to see more easily where the problem lies and and to see if they succeeded in code changes or maybe just to see how the RAM allocation behaves over time.

    TLDR: There is NEVER 100% correct code, due to code changes bugs appear you just cannot foresee.

    On another topic.
    It is not that I agree with the "buy more RAM" mantra or get a proper 64bit system gibberish . But you have to realize that there is a shift happening in the game industry that moves away from 32bit to 64bit systems. It mustn't be the fact for NS2 but like @Hugh already mentioned it will be the fact for 'AAA' titles like Watch Dog or future CoD titles.
    Why? Short answer: Consoles! Consoles held back the need of PC upgrades for some years now because most PC games nowadays are console ports. When a game runs OK on a console it was just fine for a mid gaming rig. The 360 and PS3 have way under 4GB RAM the magic 32bit limit. But now that the next gen consoles have 64bit CPUs the demands are suddenly rising and 32bit will no longer be supported for a good reason. Watch Dogs will need 6GB minimum(!) because the next gen consoles aren't forcing the developers to cripple the graphics, animations etc. anymore.
    That said you may not need more RAM for now for NS2 but possible future major additions or even performance improvements to NS2 may be difficult or even impossible due to hardware constraints of 32bit systems and the lack of sufficient RAM.
    Intel Core i7-3770K not (yet?) over clocked
    AMD HD7870 OC version
    Corsair 16GB DDR3 RAM 1600MHz
    IronHorse
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    Coelispex wrote: »
    Three words to those who have this issue: Buy more RAM. This is 2013, get on with the time. Upgrade your rig to 64 bit systems and save developers the unnecessary headache, time and money.

    Lol at but more ram, I have
    win7 64 and 4gb ram...

    Thing is my motherboard is DDR2 and my heat sink blocks 2 slots... Do you know how expensive 2x4gb of DDR2 is?


  • PopturePopture Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-22 Member: 172879Posts: 45
    Thanks for the clear communication.
    Javert
  • petteyg359petteyg359 Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-09-08 Member: 158595Posts: 6 Fully active user
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    Coelispex wrote: »
    Three words to those who have this issue: Buy more RAM. This is 2013, get on with the time. Upgrade your rig to 64 bit systems and save developers the unnecessary headache, time and money.

    Lol at but more ram, I have
    win7 64 and 4gb ram...

    Thing is my motherboard is DDR2 and my heat sink blocks 2 slots... Do you know how expensive 2x4gb of DDR2 is?


    Yep. It's about $40 on eBay.
  • ZaliZali Members Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185668Posts: 43
    Husar wrote: »
    TLDR: There is NEVER 100% correct code, due to code changes bugs appear you just cannot foresee.

    Keep believing that. These problems are a direct result of something in the program not working as it should, thus "bad code".
  • OtsOts Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Posts: 780 Fully active user
    It'll be the same as with ns1, it was run by engine with tested and managed by a large company(read resources), and in the end everyone was playing it on computers light years beyond what it was made for. ns2 is made on their own engine, there's only two ways to improve your gaming experience, one is wait for more and more tweaks to the game and engine by Charlie's Angels. The other is to stop being a cheap tart and upgrading your computer.

    All in all, the game is good enough for me atm so extra additions and fixes are just an added bonus to the experience and my fps!

    Only beef i got is with people hosting servers with too many player slots for the game to handle.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Posts: 1,037
    I really think UWE should just stop setting deadlines for their own work, take a leaf out of the Valve playbook and just release stuff "when it's done."
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
    B3rTblackpiranha
  • JektJekt Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    If you're not adding at least 7 days to a UWE deadline by now, you don't belong here.
    WalsaBlarney_Stone
  • BriligBrilig Members Join Date: 2009-01-01 Member: 65938Posts: 27
    Thank you for the clear, and honest communication UWE. I think you guys do a fantastic job of keeping us up to date.
    Javert
  • 0ni0ni Members Join Date: 2012-08-30 Member: 156991Posts: 231 Fully active user
    Hugh wrote: »
    ...Our new target date is the evening US-PST on the 15th of October...
    @Hugh, Check your inbox.
    For failure to comply with demands I'm making good on this threat.
    I have lots of other body parts that I'm proud of so you better fucking post in GMT or UTC from now on.
    Blarney_StoneMasterBat
  • KwisatzHaderachKwisatzHaderach Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143872Posts: 368 Fully active user
    0ni wrote: »
    Hugh wrote: »
    ...Our new target date is the evening US-PST on the 15th of October...
    @Hugh, Check your inbox.
    For failure to comply with demands I'm making good on this threat.
    I have lots of other body parts that I'm proud of so you better fucking post in GMT or UTC from now on.

    I second that. Er, not the part about the body parts, but about time zones.

    I didn't even know there was a deadline. Just release stuff when it's done :), thanks for the post nevertheless.
  • spongeboburuspongeboburu Members Join Date: 2013-09-30 Member: 188540Posts: 32
    The whole "buy more RAM" argument is nonsense, more RAM will delay memory leak problems at best, not fix them.

    The 257 build crashes quite often in-game for me on my 16G system, so I should get 32G to play a game that has 4G recommended?

    Also, I'm on a 64-bit architecture (i7) and like I said, the in-game crashes are frequent.
    Although I'm not sure if the Linux version is 32-bit only. That would be a shame considering the great (and early) 64-bit support history of Linux. Why does anyone even bother with 32-bit PC games today anyway?

    While it would have been desirable not have these bugs in the first place or a quickie fix just to adress those issues, I'm glad to see UWE is communicative and are trying to step up to the challenge.

    Looking forward to increased stability on my 64-bit 16G system when 258 is released!
  • tuxatortuxator Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Posts: 145 Fully active user
    2 Things about problems in IT: Never try to solve a hardware bug in software and never try to solve a software bug in hardware. Instead, solve the software bug in software and the hardware bug in hardware. That's the only correct approach. Everything else is set to fail at some point.


    Javert
  • zeepzeep Members Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Posts: 281 Advanced user
    edited October 2013
    And for all that is holy, fix marines outjumping skulks. They jump equal or higher than skulks now. In case you missed it.
    SjN
  • CrushaKCrushaK Members, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    i cant believe some people are still using 32bit, i switched to 64bit and sticked with it since 2006, please, switch to 64bit and if you need to buy memory, please do so, its 20 dollars for an extra gig...cmon, dont upgrade it just for the game

    It's not 20 dollars for the 64 bit Windows license, though.

    Aside from the enormous hassle that you have when you need to set up a new OS and migrate all your personal data, reinstall every program (over 250 in my case) and configure it again. Bonus points if you only have less than 500 kbps download speed on your internet connection.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • 0ni0ni Members Join Date: 2012-08-30 Member: 156991Posts: 231 Fully active user
    I second that. Er, not the part about the body parts, but about time zones.

    I didn't even know there was a deadline. Just release stuff when it's done :), thanks for the post nevertheless.


    Yeah, I'm not at all bothered by the delay either. At least they communicate, that's the foundation of all good relationships right there. Compared to many many other devs out there UWE has done great.

    So help me Satan though if he keeps posting local time zones to a global community. I will find that filthy bogan and slather his naked body in salty lemon Tabasco sauce while I thrash him with jerking socks filled with used needles.

    Then I'll make him watch Justin Bieber DVDs as he slips slowly from the mortal coil. I'm so fucking serious @Hugh, don't even tempt me.

    I know you got my message btw, you were on this morning. Don't just ignore it. Absorb it, look at those little beards. Use that fear as a tool to better yourself. Be like the batman of time zones.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Posts: 3,787 admin
    I'm mostly just happy that the shotgun hitch is finally actually fixed (knock on wood). It's big for both smooth client play and since it was causing most if not all of the large hitches on the server that result in severe rubberbanding we shouldn't be seeing that much anymore either.
    UWE Playtest Lead
    Be the change you wish to see.
    Twitter
    NeokenIronHorse
  • MasterBatMasterBat Members Join Date: 2013-09-30 Member: 188533Posts: 16
    edited October 2013
    Well, from what I know, there are only nine devs in the crew (correct me if im wrong). So yeah, maybe they shouldn't put deadlines on anything.

    The best advice I can give the devs is to not rush, no pressure! Take your time.

    [On the otherhand I have very few problems with the game and didn't encounter a lot of fps drop compared to last few builds, so good job there!]
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    +1 for not rushing the update. Given that that release will be out for at least several weeks before the next one hits, it better be rock solid.

    As for balance changes, I'm hoping to see three things: reduced Marine strafe jumping, reduced Jetpack fuel regen, and a slight buff to Fade energy management. Obviously, Marines would need something to compensate, without breaking something in another place...
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    Coelispex wrote: »
    Three words to those who have this issue: Buy more RAM. This is 2013, get on with the time. Upgrade your rig to 64 bit systems and save developers the unnecessary headache, time and money.

    Lol at but more ram, I have
    win7 64 and 4gb ram...

    Thing is my motherboard is DDR2 and my heat sink blocks 2 slots... Do you know how expensive 2x4gb of DDR2 is?


    They sell low profile RAM for people who have large heatsinks
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    Zali wrote: »
    Husar wrote: »
    TLDR: There is NEVER 100% correct code, due to code changes bugs appear you just cannot foresee.

    Keep believing that. These problems are a direct result of something in the program not working as it should, thus "bad code".

    There's a world of difference between "bad code" and "bad coding", which you wrote in your first post.

    "Bad code" being the cause of non-hardware bugs is a tautology. "Bad coding", however, implies that if only developers did a better job, there wouldn't be any bugs. And that's simply untrue. The effort to produce fault-free software skyrockets the closer you get to 100%, so 100% is pretty much unattainable. That's why it's only even *attempted* for software where lives depend on it (nuclear reactors, aircraft, military, ...). Every other decent-sized software has bugs, no matter how good the developers are. That's why there is always testing, bug reports, and updates.
    Narfwak
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    hozz wrote: »
    ... and maps have received tweaks.
    VEIL SKYLIGHTS VENT REMOVED? Please let it happen.

    If in return, Cargo gets more cover so it isn't a camping Marine's wet dream anymore, I'd be fine with that. :P
  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    My guess is there will neither be a marine-strafe tweak nor an alien tunnel nerf. Purely a performance update, which is okay. I'm still not going to play aliens for a while though.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
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