(I'm convinced RedDog has a magical power that allows him to instantly cause the death of anyone he specs in FPV )
He needs to find a good competitive player to be his cameraman. A person whos sole job is to watch the minimap waiting for something to happen, this person should also be able to recognize when and who to watch first person.
What I think would push Pro-Gaming into the future is all about spectating. We have a bunch of people here saying NS2 casts need more 1st person spectating. I think the real problem, is actually a really big (though technically challenging) opportunity. What would be ideal to me, would be essentially a spectating interface that gave the spectator control over what he saw. Essentially let the game render on their machine, give them optional control over what they see. Provide a catered feed that is mapped to whatever the casters are viewing and talking about but let the viewer stray from what they are viewing. switching to 1st person, panning to another part of the map, pulling up the resource graph or the Full Map whenever they wanted. Then they click a button and are snapped back to the action.
basically just copy everything DOTA 2 does related to spectating, as it's pretty much perfect.
I think it's fundamentally different. those games don't need to deal with perspective switches.. which can get really really disorienting. following overhead would be fine. but switching to first person could be problematic.
The video is correct, but at the same time the only way to have the spectator officially watch the game there needs to be something like angled security cameras put on maps that people can watch through. Or since LUA is being used mainly have a theatrical mode made that registers with damages, possible contact percentages based on player location or just heavy combat in general. Or make spectator mode (commander screen) able to place action points (like the alien threat awareness) were casual spectators can base a theatrical camera that zooms around players in a certain area.
But really, NS2 has an outstanding spectate system. For an indie game of this scale and team size, it's almost beyond belief how good it is. The real "problem" with most games is nobody really understands them. NS2 isn't easy to understand well enough to play, let alone watch. In an arena game like Quake, UT or something like CS, you can easily understand what's going on - although even in those games there's tactics and strategies that happen beyond what's "on the screen" at any one time. NS2, like most RTS games, is a lot more complex. The end goal is obvious, but unlike Quake, UT, and CS where it's nearly all about number of kills, NS2 and other RTS aren't entirely.
CS:GO has a pretty good spectator system, i think for NS2 spec system, having a commander minimap in the top corner in FPV view and being able to click on that map and being taken from FPV view to commander view at the location you clicked would be pretty neat.
I dont think just improving the spectator system will improve NS2 as an esport. I think the main problem lies in the game design. If NS1 had NS2's spectator system, it would probably be more entertaining to watch than NS2.
The main problem with NS2 is its too fast paced, marines have to apply constant non stop pressure at multiple locations, sometimes switching from 1 hive to the next over and over until aliens break. Its just not that entertaining to watch and its confusing. The viewer has no idea who is winning, who to root for.
CS:GO has a pretty good spectator system, i think for NS2 spec system, having a commander minimap in the top corner in FPV view and being able to click on that map and being taken from FPV view to commander view at the location you clicked would be pretty neat.
I dont think just improving the spectator system will improve NS2 as an esport. I think the main problem lies in the game design. If NS1 had NS2's spectator system, it would probably be more entertaining to watch than NS2.
The main problem with NS2 is its too fast paced, marines have to apply constant non stop pressure at multiple locations, sometimes switching from 1 hive to the next over and over until aliens break. Its just not that entertaining to watch and its confusing. The viewer has no idea who is winning, who to root for.
But that depends more on the viewer and his experience/knowledge of the game, and not the game design or specator mode in itself. If someone who has never seen a moba game starts watching comp LoL, it's gonna be confusing as well.
A more feasible way to do this is with two casters. To start off, we often have two people casting, keeping the game top down with shots in an upper or lower corner of first person view would be great, and the second caster would need to focus on doing that...
I think a combination of these 2 ideas would be the most feasible and should be possible even now.
Use 2 casters (as I think is a common practice), 1 caster is considered the main caster and is in charge of the overhead view. The other caster focuses more on 1st/ 3rd person obs and killer plays.
Then to get this info to the players, have the primary caster’s display appear on the visual stream normally, but allow the secondary caster to grab control of the visual stream and auto minimize the primary caster’s visuals (or shrink them to the corner screen) if he see something he thinks is especially interesting happening. The primary caster can grab back control though if he thinks the secondary caster is missing something important (or just ready to re-take the lead).
Or alternately the secondary caster’s fps view is normally displayed and the top-down view caster’s view is normally minimized unless he wants to point out some key positioning or map control plays happening (or when there aren’t any particularly thrilling engagements going on).
I think this could happen now, as I've often seen streams with a caster showing a map view along with 2 talking heads in windowed view. Just allow the secondary caster to make his window display a priority to the stream if he sends a certain command. This would possilby require an additional dummy streaming computer to automate the visual stream commands? Idk all the logistics involved in streaming
He needs to find a good competitive player to be his cameraman. A person whos sole job is to watch the minimap waiting for something to happen, this person should also be able to recognize when and who to watch first person.
Ehh.. I've done this with Hugh before streaming big tournaments..
A) you do not need a "good competitive" player to be a cameraman, just someone who understands the game and knows what is important - experience is what is important more than how well your personal aim is, when it comes to using the camera. A majority of overhead shots, with the occasional free cam or FPV during intense moments etc. and a HIGH amount of situational awareness.
It doesn't work out as well as you'd think. I had Hugh constantly yelling at me, telling me i wasn't watching the scene he was speaking on... even tho he'd be speaking about something not nearly as important as what i'd be catching with the camera- imo. Basically, the commentator talks...that's what they do primarily... and because of this, and getting carried away with it, they will not always have a high level of situational awareness. So it needs to be clear from the beginning that the camera man dictates the show and the commentator just comments on whats on screen with the occasional verbal suggestion... otherwise its a mess.
Just for info purposes - all these ideas about the two casters; one top view the other FPV; we've tried and tested multiple things to get this working months ago without luck. We ran into huge delay issues, performance/connection problems and just generally poor quality results.
However, that was at the beginning of the year - I can run some more tests on my end to see if we think of anything new on how to get it working to the quality that we need.
Just for info purposes - all these ideas about the two casters; one top view the other FPV; we've tried and tested multiple things to get this working months ago without luck. We ran into huge delay issues, performance/connection problems and just generally poor quality results.
However, that was at the beginning of the year - I can run some more tests on my end to see if we think of anything new on how to get it working to the quality that we need.
Yeah honestly with latency and the speed at which these games progress, the only way to do the multi-camera produced environment would be to mix and broadcast it locally. If you had the "camera men", casters, and director all with their own PCs in the same room (or at least same network) then you could do it. But trying to cast a game with multiple people remotely seems far to difficult with current technology and bandwidth.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Didn't one of the UWE teams create placeable cameras for one of their mods during Mod Week? Any chance that technology would be useful (ie NSL maps with predetermined camera locations)?
It doesn't work out as well as you'd think. I had Hugh constantly yelling at me, telling me i wasn't watching the scene he was speaking on... even tho he'd be speaking about something not nearly as important as what i'd be catching with the camera. Basically, the commentator talks...that's what they do primarily... and because of this, and getting carried away with it, they will not always have a high level of situational awareness. So it needs to be clear from the beginning that the camera man dictates the show and the commentator just comments on whats on screen with the occasional verbal suggestion... otherwise its a mess.
I think with ample practice together in those roles that would not be an issue. It's a matter of learning what the caster wants to see I think. I experience similar things to this at work. Sometimes I have to scribe a meeting while someone else does the talking/ questioning. My 1st few goes at this were pretty bad, but after a few times of working with the same person, I could basically read his mind on what he wanted to see or where he was going with a certain line of thought etc.
Assuming the techinical limitations as mentioned by Reddog are still in though, I think the camera man driving the screen might work out best (or giving him the ability to take over the visual stream temporarily). That way it's a lot like a sports game. The commentators are mainly commenting on what they are fed rather than also having to aim the camera...
Though I do enjoy watching RedDog's streams as they are, but some more FPS views or 3rd person action views would be pretty nice.
This might be a bad idea, but would a caster mod that snaps your view into 3rd person to the room with the most amount of players in it at the press of a button be worthwhile? And maybe give it a few other options such as snap the view to FPS view of the player with the most health/ or highest HP fade/ or marine with the best equipment (etc).
That way if a caster in overhead view sees a huge gathering at X location and knows a big battle is about to throw-down, he could just click a button to get right into the action.
An instant replay system would be pretty cool too to replay a huge scirmish that just finished from a different point of view (because afterwards players would be restocking or respawning = not as exciting); but that would require the game saving an actual point to point replay with a delayed gamestate (like Starcraft 2 replays or something), AND allowing that to function in game at the same time . Buutttt, that's not going to happen in NS2 I figure.
Would love to hear team comms in casts as well during big pushes and such. It would give the community some insight on what exactly happens behind the curtains.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
It's not like L4D where you can just do it during a tank or quad. It would be hard to get the timing right of swapping over to the teams comms. Would be very cool in premier div if it's done right though. Need a dedicated streamer / audio guy for that imo. Unless Reddog is an absolute beast at multi tasking.
Two spectators would be nice. One spectator with tactical overview who is commenting things as they happen, and one spectator just trying to catch all the nice fights and record and replay the segments perhaps 15 seconds after they have happened. This is done in basically every televised sport known to man. Preferably in slow motion.
Would love to hear team comms in casts as well during big pushes and such. It would give the community some insight on what exactly happens behind the curtains.
A more feasible way to do this is with two casters. To start off, we often have two people casting, keeping the game top down with shots in an upper or lower corner of first person view would be great, and the second caster would need to focus on doing that.
How, from two different casters, can we get this to work? I don't know that's not my technical knowledge, but if Skype can do it, there must be a way. A small delay on the 1st person cam is not a big deal, as long as the top-down view comes first so as to not spoil the action.
I think you would actually need both casters streaming video to a third person who would have to have his computer streaming to twitch, and he'd be in charge of deciding which camera gets shown on the twitch stream at any given point in time. At least that's how they were doing it in some of the older T:A casts.
Would love to hear team comms in casts as well during big pushes and such. It would give the community some insight on what exactly happens behind the curtains.
Someone would have to beep out all the swearing for the official stream.
Would love to hear team comms in casts as well during big pushes and such. It would give the community some insight on what exactly happens behind the curtains.
Someone would have to beep out all the swearing for the official stream.
Which, in turn, would make the entire thing a incomprehensible. :l
However, that was at the beginning of the year - I can run some more tests on my end to see if we think of anything new on how to get it working to the quality that we need.
Let me know if you need a hand with that Reddog, I could try to pose as a cameraman to see if we can get a flow that works better.
Would love to hear team comms in casts as well during big pushes and such. It would give the community some insight on what exactly happens behind the curtains.
This could be a bad idea to show to the public, as it might let slip extra information that wasnt intended to be shared. "Do a decoy hit at X base, we'll take out this location". I realize it's delayed but still...
HOWEVER if the team lead's voice comm is streamed to the caster via ear bud, the caster could get an early notice and have a moment to get ready for it.
Now that i have some time i would like to make some comments that made me post the video.
I think the 2 big things that are holding back NS2 is casters and the introductory difficulty curve.
We have some great casters! But in order to grow we are going to need more. Good casters are probably the best way to get people to start playing the game. They also help ease people into the game by introducing some of the basics. I think it would help to have more of a team based approach to casting but I am not really sure what that would look like. What would be really sweet is a game recording and playback system so that if you miss something in the cast you can go back and look at it later.
The difficulty curve.... oh man
One of the main reasons that it is so difficult for new players is that there is such a small player base that the likelihood that you will be playing on a server with competitive players or other very good players is very likely. It also does not help that you do need some practice to be an effective player. In most games the mechanics involve mostly button mashing and mouse accuracy. NS2 requires a lot of situational awareness and other stuff (bhop, the res game). These things are not very clear up front to the player.
All this creates problems when trying to grow or keep a player base. I do think that having a competitive secen is important to the health of the game, especially a mutliplayer game.
In regards to the difficulty curve... It would be cool if someone set up a server where new players can go and, instead of having a competitive match, they learn all of the important aspects of the game from more experienced players. Sort of like a training server run by experienced players. The community might not be big enough to support it but it could be cool
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
edited September 2013
Being familiar with broadcast equipment and techniques in a non-live stream setting, all of these idea's are super difficult. Without a digital signal matrix and the software to accompany it, managing multiple signals from PC's that are even in the same room is EXTREMELY clunky without turning it into a professional operation.
Once you start doing that though, it begs the question, is the way its done now really that bad? Maybe the current method just needs refining either through operation and/or software changes.
The only thing I could think of that could improve my streams immensely is to do with audio operation. If their was a way for a 2nd member to remotely inject audio into my stream I would do it. The other benefits of audio operation come to mind as well such as team comms and guest interviews etc.
Good discussion!
EDIT
Now that I think about it, there might be a feature worth playing with in XSplit. Embedding another live stream which controls audio or camera into another live stream which controls the opposite that is then broadcast to twitch. This however would require 2 people that can stream with a higher bitrate to retain quality after 2 stages of compression, which is simply not possible in my region (AUS).
So I did a couple test last night with Decoy and other competitive team members on the double stream idea: One camera top down view and another dedicated FPV cam in the corner of the stream. Results were, well, just not good.
The first thing we tried was to have Decoy's Twitch page up on my other monitor and me just screen region that feed and pump that into my stream. We knew this was a long shot already and we were right. The lag was ridiculous. We played with delay settings here and there but it just got worse - so scrap that plan!
The second thing we tried was connecting to Decoy's stream via RTMP (Real-Time Messaging Protocol). Xsplit has the option to 'add livestream' to a scene via this protocol. This would reduce the lag coming from Decoy's stream as it would connect more directly. However, we ran into problems. Once I established the RTMP connection to the Twitch ingest server that she was using and had Decoy's stream key, it would terminate the connection. Upon researching this, I found out that Twitch does not allow RTMP connections:
Aaron Clay: TWITCH STAFF AUG 29, 2013 04:35PM PDT
Looking into this further, we don't allow Twitch/Justin.tv streams to be added that way. Sorry for the inconvenience."
Aaron Clay: TWITCH STAFF SEP 13, 2013 11:17AM PDT
We don't support that feature. That's an Xsplit feature that works on some other limited RTMP services."
So really, the only way to get this done the way people are suggesting is to have a local studio, complete with broadcasting hardware and production staff. Unless we can figure out a way to reduce the lag from the other FPV stream, the quality would be shit.
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
edited September 2013
Delaying the initial stream by 30 seconds and the host stream by 20 or a variant of depending on the lag from that would be the only way I could think of to get that sort of stream to work. But it sounds like a long shot indeed from your testing.
Interesting that Twitch doesn't support RTMP, any idea why?
When you start getting into more complex setups for casting/streaming everything needs to be upgraded unfortunately. When you have multiple sources of audio/video XSplit doesn't cut it anymore as there isn't enough control over the seperate audio and video feeds etc.
I still think that the current method is fine. It helps having personalities, 'celebrities', that are doing the casting as it provides a little more of a bigger picture of the scene as a whole. Maybe we should focus on the people rather than the methods, not to say that there is anything wrong with the people atm either. I think its in a good place.
Comments
I think it's fundamentally different. those games don't need to deal with perspective switches.. which can get really really disorienting. following overhead would be fine. but switching to first person could be problematic.
GoProer Hero 3.
But really, NS2 has an outstanding spectate system. For an indie game of this scale and team size, it's almost beyond belief how good it is. The real "problem" with most games is nobody really understands them. NS2 isn't easy to understand well enough to play, let alone watch. In an arena game like Quake, UT or something like CS, you can easily understand what's going on - although even in those games there's tactics and strategies that happen beyond what's "on the screen" at any one time. NS2, like most RTS games, is a lot more complex. The end goal is obvious, but unlike Quake, UT, and CS where it's nearly all about number of kills, NS2 and other RTS aren't entirely.
CS:GO has a pretty good spectator system, i think for NS2 spec system, having a commander minimap in the top corner in FPV view and being able to click on that map and being taken from FPV view to commander view at the location you clicked would be pretty neat.
I dont think just improving the spectator system will improve NS2 as an esport. I think the main problem lies in the game design. If NS1 had NS2's spectator system, it would probably be more entertaining to watch than NS2.
The main problem with NS2 is its too fast paced, marines have to apply constant non stop pressure at multiple locations, sometimes switching from 1 hive to the next over and over until aliens break. Its just not that entertaining to watch and its confusing. The viewer has no idea who is winning, who to root for.
But that depends more on the viewer and his experience/knowledge of the game, and not the game design or specator mode in itself. If someone who has never seen a moba game starts watching comp LoL, it's gonna be confusing as well.
I think a combination of these 2 ideas would be the most feasible and should be possible even now.
Use 2 casters (as I think is a common practice), 1 caster is considered the main caster and is in charge of the overhead view. The other caster focuses more on 1st/ 3rd person obs and killer plays.
Then to get this info to the players, have the primary caster’s display appear on the visual stream normally, but allow the secondary caster to grab control of the visual stream and auto minimize the primary caster’s visuals (or shrink them to the corner screen) if he see something he thinks is especially interesting happening. The primary caster can grab back control though if he thinks the secondary caster is missing something important (or just ready to re-take the lead).
Or alternately the secondary caster’s fps view is normally displayed and the top-down view caster’s view is normally minimized unless he wants to point out some key positioning or map control plays happening (or when there aren’t any particularly thrilling engagements going on).
I think this could happen now, as I've often seen streams with a caster showing a map view along with 2 talking heads in windowed view. Just allow the secondary caster to make his window display a priority to the stream if he sends a certain command. This would possilby require an additional dummy streaming computer to automate the visual stream commands? Idk all the logistics involved in streaming
A) you do not need a "good competitive" player to be a cameraman, just someone who understands the game and knows what is important - experience is what is important more than how well your personal aim is, when it comes to using the camera. A majority of overhead shots, with the occasional free cam or FPV during intense moments etc. and a HIGH amount of situational awareness.
However, that was at the beginning of the year - I can run some more tests on my end to see if we think of anything new on how to get it working to the quality that we need.
Yeah honestly with latency and the speed at which these games progress, the only way to do the multi-camera produced environment would be to mix and broadcast it locally. If you had the "camera men", casters, and director all with their own PCs in the same room (or at least same network) then you could do it. But trying to cast a game with multiple people remotely seems far to difficult with current technology and bandwidth.
I think with ample practice together in those roles that would not be an issue. It's a matter of learning what the caster wants to see I think. I experience similar things to this at work. Sometimes I have to scribe a meeting while someone else does the talking/ questioning. My 1st few goes at this were pretty bad, but after a few times of working with the same person, I could basically read his mind on what he wanted to see or where he was going with a certain line of thought etc.
Assuming the techinical limitations as mentioned by Reddog are still in though, I think the camera man driving the screen might work out best (or giving him the ability to take over the visual stream temporarily). That way it's a lot like a sports game. The commentators are mainly commenting on what they are fed rather than also having to aim the camera...
Though I do enjoy watching RedDog's streams as they are, but some more FPS views or 3rd person action views would be pretty nice.
This might be a bad idea, but would a caster mod that snaps your view into 3rd person to the room with the most amount of players in it at the press of a button be worthwhile? And maybe give it a few other options such as snap the view to FPS view of the player with the most health/ or highest HP fade/ or marine with the best equipment (etc).
That way if a caster in overhead view sees a huge gathering at X location and knows a big battle is about to throw-down, he could just click a button to get right into the action.
An instant replay system would be pretty cool too to replay a huge scirmish that just finished from a different point of view (because afterwards players would be restocking or respawning = not as exciting); but that would require the game saving an actual point to point replay with a delayed gamestate (like Starcraft 2 replays or something), AND allowing that to function in game at the same time
MINES IN FLIGHT!!
Definitely would like to hear some Team X comms.
I think you would actually need both casters streaming video to a third person who would have to have his computer streaming to twitch, and he'd be in charge of deciding which camera gets shown on the twitch stream at any given point in time. At least that's how they were doing it in some of the older T:A casts.
Someone would have to beep out all the swearing for the official stream.
Which, in turn, would make the entire thing a incomprehensible. :l
Let me know if you need a hand with that Reddog, I could try to pose as a cameraman to see if we can get a flow that works better.
This could be a bad idea to show to the public, as it might let slip extra information that wasnt intended to be shared. "Do a decoy hit at X base, we'll take out this location". I realize it's delayed but still...
HOWEVER if the team lead's voice comm is streamed to the caster via ear bud, the caster could get an early notice and have a moment to get ready for it.
I think the 2 big things that are holding back NS2 is casters and the introductory difficulty curve.
We have some great casters! But in order to grow we are going to need more. Good casters are probably the best way to get people to start playing the game. They also help ease people into the game by introducing some of the basics. I think it would help to have more of a team based approach to casting but I am not really sure what that would look like. What would be really sweet is a game recording and playback system so that if you miss something in the cast you can go back and look at it later.
The difficulty curve.... oh man
One of the main reasons that it is so difficult for new players is that there is such a small player base that the likelihood that you will be playing on a server with competitive players or other very good players is very likely. It also does not help that you do need some practice to be an effective player. In most games the mechanics involve mostly button mashing and mouse accuracy. NS2 requires a lot of situational awareness and other stuff (bhop, the res game). These things are not very clear up front to the player.
All this creates problems when trying to grow or keep a player base. I do think that having a competitive secen is important to the health of the game, especially a mutliplayer game.
Once you start doing that though, it begs the question, is the way its done now really that bad? Maybe the current method just needs refining either through operation and/or software changes.
The only thing I could think of that could improve my streams immensely is to do with audio operation. If their was a way for a 2nd member to remotely inject audio into my stream I would do it. The other benefits of audio operation come to mind as well such as team comms and guest interviews etc.
Good discussion!
EDIT
Now that I think about it, there might be a feature worth playing with in XSplit. Embedding another live stream which controls audio or camera into another live stream which controls the opposite that is then broadcast to twitch. This however would require 2 people that can stream with a higher bitrate to retain quality after 2 stages of compression, which is simply not possible in my region (AUS).
The best thing is to have entertaining casters that are fun to watch. Then later people will come back to watch the game as well.
The first thing we tried was to have Decoy's Twitch page up on my other monitor and me just screen region that feed and pump that into my stream. We knew this was a long shot already and we were right. The lag was ridiculous. We played with delay settings here and there but it just got worse - so scrap that plan!
The second thing we tried was connecting to Decoy's stream via RTMP (Real-Time Messaging Protocol). Xsplit has the option to 'add livestream' to a scene via this protocol. This would reduce the lag coming from Decoy's stream as it would connect more directly. However, we ran into problems. Once I established the RTMP connection to the Twitch ingest server that she was using and had Decoy's stream key, it would terminate the connection. Upon researching this, I found out that Twitch does not allow RTMP connections:
Aaron Clay: TWITCH STAFF AUG 29, 2013 04:35PM PDT
Looking into this further, we don't allow Twitch/Justin.tv streams to be added that way. Sorry for the inconvenience."
Aaron Clay: TWITCH STAFF SEP 13, 2013 11:17AM PDT
We don't support that feature. That's an Xsplit feature that works on some other limited RTMP services."
So really, the only way to get this done the way people are suggesting is to have a local studio, complete with broadcasting hardware and production staff. Unless we can figure out a way to reduce the lag from the other FPV stream, the quality would be shit.
Interesting that Twitch doesn't support RTMP, any idea why?
When you start getting into more complex setups for casting/streaming everything needs to be upgraded unfortunately. When you have multiple sources of audio/video XSplit doesn't cut it anymore as there isn't enough control over the seperate audio and video feeds etc.
Programs like this:
http://www.telestream.net/wirecast/overview.htm?clickid=3nNy6YRLA3qC2urxaxzxAQT8UkWQmk0d8Rgf1A0&iradid=36265&irpid=36868
are very professional but then come at a cost.
I still think that the current method is fine. It helps having personalities, 'celebrities', that are doing the casting as it provides a little more of a bigger picture of the scene as a whole. Maybe we should focus on the people rather than the methods, not to say that there is anything wrong with the people atm either. I think its in a good place.