ns2_tram server room too friendly for aliens?
Gliss
Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
hello friends and lovers!
I think this is an issue that a few teams are finding difficult to deal with and I think the problem is simply map related, I wanted to get feedback on a possible revision.
Server Room is a really Alien-favored hive, it gives access to 3 easily defendable RTs in Platform, Server, and Mezzanine. as everyone knows, marine teams are currently forced into split-pushing or dual sided pressure to pull apart the aliens in an evenly-matched game. this is quite frustrating on Server Room, because the vent outside Server allows for easy ping-ponging of aliens back and forth which covers 3 RTs in hardly any traveltime. on top of all that, if marines spawn in Warehouse, they typically must always dedicate a person to cover North Tunnels to prevent a base rush which is possible pretty much at any point in the game. marines have to walk a veeerryy long path to think about getting even close to Mezzanine, and the environments for attacking Platform and Server are very alien-favored.
I'm proposing that the vent be removed (I believe this is a good starting point that will determine if any further changes are necessary). it's currently way too ridiculous that Aliens can travel back and forth to cover both naturals and their hive RT. the only other map where this comes close to happening is on Summit where the vent allows access from Computer Lab to Ventilation. Summit is more balanced in contrast to Tram because the travel time through the vents is longer, and they are easy to cover by mining or just watching the exit. it's also difficult to get to the vents in the first place because you have to pass what is typically considered safe marine territory.
compare this to Tram, where the vent in Mezzanine is almost impossible to cover as it exits high up on the ceiling, it's very far past the RT, the exit hole is very large, and there is hardly any travel time between the 3 (!) RTs.
the other annoyance is Warehouse and Server are so close + easily defendable, in a 6on6 game you really can't commit enough forces to all of these tasks which is usually possible on other maps: dual sided pressure, capturing res nodes, and preventing a base rush. I think the traveltime from Server to Warehouse should be adjusted to be less friendly for that possibility. I think the overall goal for spawns should simply be that they are different and play on different weaknesses and strengths as opposed to being just straight better.
thoughts?
I think this is an issue that a few teams are finding difficult to deal with and I think the problem is simply map related, I wanted to get feedback on a possible revision.
Server Room is a really Alien-favored hive, it gives access to 3 easily defendable RTs in Platform, Server, and Mezzanine. as everyone knows, marine teams are currently forced into split-pushing or dual sided pressure to pull apart the aliens in an evenly-matched game. this is quite frustrating on Server Room, because the vent outside Server allows for easy ping-ponging of aliens back and forth which covers 3 RTs in hardly any traveltime. on top of all that, if marines spawn in Warehouse, they typically must always dedicate a person to cover North Tunnels to prevent a base rush which is possible pretty much at any point in the game. marines have to walk a veeerryy long path to think about getting even close to Mezzanine, and the environments for attacking Platform and Server are very alien-favored.
I'm proposing that the vent be removed (I believe this is a good starting point that will determine if any further changes are necessary). it's currently way too ridiculous that Aliens can travel back and forth to cover both naturals and their hive RT. the only other map where this comes close to happening is on Summit where the vent allows access from Computer Lab to Ventilation. Summit is more balanced in contrast to Tram because the travel time through the vents is longer, and they are easy to cover by mining or just watching the exit. it's also difficult to get to the vents in the first place because you have to pass what is typically considered safe marine territory.
compare this to Tram, where the vent in Mezzanine is almost impossible to cover as it exits high up on the ceiling, it's very far past the RT, the exit hole is very large, and there is hardly any travel time between the 3 (!) RTs.
the other annoyance is Warehouse and Server are so close + easily defendable, in a 6on6 game you really can't commit enough forces to all of these tasks which is usually possible on other maps: dual sided pressure, capturing res nodes, and preventing a base rush. I think the traveltime from Server to Warehouse should be adjusted to be less friendly for that possibility. I think the overall goal for spawns should simply be that they are different and play on different weaknesses and strengths as opposed to being just straight better.
thoughts?
Comments
Warehouse is tricky to defend against arc as the north tunnels is like siege heaven in ns2 making up for the close distance defence of the hives.
As it stands right now, tram is a very alien-sided map in terms of res-flow, but it is very, very marine sided in terms of sieging. Warehouse can be sieged from Ore Processing and North Tunnels- the former having a gigantic easy hallway for marines to defend from. Elevator can be sieged from observation and hub very easily. Repair room can be sieged from ore processing (not as nice), and warehouse can be sieged from logistics and the room east of warehouse.
Server room is obviously the weird one left out that cannot be sieged.
What I think should happen is- place server room's tech point in a more siegable location. It is literally impossible to siege right now. If the aliens can secure Ore-server (or warehouse-mez; this isn't unheard of, it's basically the top portion of the map), they can get easily sieged out.
This would make it similar to summit (in terms of a hub location to get around easily, reflecting crossroads), but make gameplay drastically different by having an extra easily defended RT + easily sieged hives.
The very north-most vent in server room has also bothered me, having vents directly behind RTs allows quick escape routes for res biting skulks, and I have seen some simply ping-pong between plat/server/mez because of the convenience of the vents.
I do see your point that compared to other spawns, the quick travel time between spawns seems a bit strong, but it hurts me a little bit when we start making all maps become more homogeneous. What if we were instead to alter the vent to come out on the ground level and narrow it exiting somewhere near the RT so that it would be easy to mine, and easy to cover while assaulting mezz.
That would be sort of a compromise solution because as people have mentioned, tram is already a pretty good map for marines with all the good ARC spots. And its circular style is also good for the double pressure team upgrade first meta.
I'm not really in favor of removing close spawns to begin with, though. it promotes a more aggressive game and as long as each RT room is fairly balanced to be attackable by either team, I think it's OK. it doesn't seem to impact games as severely as in say SC2 where teching rates and unit production rates are taken into consideration. but that's another thread.
I feel like warehouse and server room are to close to each other, would need a little bit more space between them. I also agree that aliens have to much mobility there.
If the glass window in Platform wasn't broken that would slightly increase the travel time between Server and Warehouse for aliens also, maybe that would help with the travel time.
Thoughts?
I think the glass window in platform is ok.
I was considering removing some of the debris between the vent area and the stair set that leads down into platform. That should increase visibility of skulks escaping. Might not be enough though.
Platform:
in map testing, I recall that the broken window in platform was implemented to allow Skulks to flank North Tunnels. remember in the days prior to the change it was very easy for marines to set up there and mow down Skulks in the early game. for the issue of traveltime from Platform I think it should be addressed in another fashion, maybe a broken tram that requires some footwork to get around.
on the RT, I think the only thing that is necessary here would be a cleanup of the debris. the vent behind the Platform RT is elongated and easy to shoot into as well as being easy to mine; I feel like it's pretty dangerous for a Skulk to attempt to escape through there.
Mezzanine:
I think starting with removing the vent is quite safe as it doesn't necessarily tip the balance of Mezzanine in either direction. the vent exit is behind cover already so it's not like it necessarily changes the dynamic of the room itself, the traveltime is primarily what seems to be the largest benefit for aliens.
this seems like a good idea to toy around with, I think some Alien buffs would be necessary to Mezzanine if both vents were removed but it might be a better idea for overall map flow.
the bigger issue might be that these spawns make the game more about 'random' combat results
maybe if aliens didn't have to route near hub whenever they went anywhere it might feel better
I could leap run, hide, heal, bite, repeat, maybe get gl'd.
or you could fly with a jetpack, run away from fade,onos, now that area is more linear.
I think it was a general bad decision to remove that vent, as vents make the game more fun and dynamics. opening up the map is a good thing.
Considering the height of the vent only jp marines could get in there. Until you could get jps, skulks could just abuse the crap out of that vent the whole game up to that point. Real balanced. Since the removal of the vent gameplay has gotten better in that area. Now only if we could do something about the North/South imbalance, thats a real fight that should be picked.
Make shipping fixed alien spawn?
I'm speaking from pub experience here but I find I win far more games as marine and especially aliens on the northern side of the map particularly in server room compared to say shipping. Holding 5 RTs is extremely easy and grabbing even the second tech point barely requires any effort compared to southern spawn and holding elevator is especially easy from the server spawn. Feels like you focus around 3/4 of your team in holding elevator while 1/4 defend ore/warehouse and push repair.
Shipping also makes my FPS plummet compared to the other two spawns.
I wonder what starting spawns in elevator and repair would be like...