about fade.

AliceTaylorAliceTaylor Members, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-05-03 Member: 185099Posts: 19
i cant speak english well. so write simply.

there is no solution mid game aliens. because of last build, fade nerfed too much.

fade ball is definitely problem until last build, but not a fade.

3 things fade nerf in this build.

1. speed and bhop mechanics.
2. consume more adrenaline.
3. 1/2 damage to structure.

srsly, i wanna ask to dev.

Is this game still in beta test?

What is the development concept of fade?

how could you make fade as totally different unit suddenly?
SolidSpiderAurOn2robinhood752RedSwordBaconSoupGhosthree3shark_BestProfileNamezeepsglee241
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Comments

  • kalakujakalakuja Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Posts: 380
    until the game is closer than Epsilon/2 to ns1.
  • Kenshir0Kenshir0 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-02-25 Member: 183347Posts: 28
  • SolidSpiderSolidSpider Members Join Date: 2013-04-14 Member: 184805Posts: 46
    edited September 2013
    They nerfed the movement and energy consumption so the pubbies could stand a chance against fades. You know, because marines are often disorganized and go alone only to get picked off by them. Which UW immediately decided was a problem with the fade, not the inexperience/bad aim of some pub marines. What the change actually did (for me at least, and I don't think I'm the only one) was make me not want to play this game anymore... :( especially when combined with the broken damage numbers.

    Damage to structures was already unimpressive, but now destroying anything in a reasonable amount of time is impossible. This change I sort of understand, but it's just too much (38 dmg? really?) This was done to discourage fade balls (leaving some skulks to bite res and save for onos). I think any one of the other two nerfs would acomplish that anyway, but they still went with it.

    Honestly, I think the nerf was too much. "But solid, you got Stab and the new vortex thingy!" Yeah. Good luck actually having those things when you most need them.

    Fade used to be a falcon, now it's a fat duck. Not hating on UW by any stretch here, but I do hope they buff fades again.

    That's my €0.02

    Edit: grammar check
    Post edited by SolidSpider on
    robinhood752BestProfileNamezeep
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    I've only played the new fade 3x since the movement changes and it feels butchered to me, however there might be a small chance I'm just using it wrong

    But from trying out multiple things, just looks like blink has been nerfed and the overall speed and control have been greatly reduced, and for a trade off we've been given a new vortex

    Personally I'd rather just play skulk/lerk now and skip fade, unless again I'm completely doing something wrong, if not then I can only imagine top tier players destroying me at pretty much any engagement with SGs
    SolidSpider
  • zenefzenef Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183762Posts: 68 Advanced user
    Speed nerf was too big imo. Fades were almost 2x faster before.
  • rantologyrantology Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Posts: 1,493 Advanced user
    to be fair, aliens have been FOTM for the better part of a year... :P
    image
    Sinz76StripetailsGORGEousduster
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Posts: 259 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    Let's see what happens in NSL Season 3. It's almost here.

    With these changes the Fade is still reasonably powerful, but definitely not worth 40 p.res anymore. Maybe 30 or 35 is more like it. Not sure how I'd fare against strong players, but judging from the few scrims I played, I'm pretty sure my Fade would be worth a lot less than my Skulk. I have a very aggressive playstyle (sometimes way too aggressive, need to work on that) and these changes mean I'd be dead much more frequently.

    They even nerfed my favorite way of getting about 30-40 speed in Crevice! D:

    It's a good thing I play Lerk sometimes. Guess I'm going to focus more on that lifeform now...
    Post edited by StrikerX3 on
    .StrikerX3 :: Steam :: YouTube :: Twitch.tv :: Blog
    robinhood752SolidSpider
  • casan0vaxcasan0vax Cloverfield, USAMembers, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166663Posts: 202
    StrikerX3 wrote: »
    Let's see what happens in NSL Season 3. It's almost here.
    IMO, Season 3 is gonna be a fade slaughterhouse. It'll be impossible for fades to function solo, even in pairs.

    Pre-Reinforced, comp players could thrash decent fades, whether in pubs or 6v6.
    Now imagine a whole team of relatively competent aimers against the new brick_fade.

    I'm a big proponent of change, and I like almost everything that Reinforced has brought with it, but the Fade changes I really wish would be reverted back. It just felt right before.
    #FREEEISSFELDT
    soz! < caSa > - RETIRED COMMANDER/CASTER

    NailoSinz76
  • simbasimba Members Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151628Posts: 191 Fully active user
    I think the better change would have been lowering base fade health, and scaling it's health increases from biomass so it has about the same health in the late game. This makes the early fades and the "fadesplosion" a little easier to manage at the start.

    And keep the lowered structure dmg.
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    Well someone said I'm doing it wrong but I tried it out again and it just seems like fade is slower and has less control, vortex really does nothing for me and I can't imagine living very long against the best aimers; so I'd rather stay skulk, become a lerk, then if I die save skulks until onos or lose the match; going fade looks like a waste of pres because not only is it slower but it seems more energy intensive

    I thought the update was just going to require you to have to use blink more often (ex you slow down faster when jumping) which didn't seem like an issue, but it wasn't that, also blink feels awkward kind of like it pulls me down unless I hold it
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Posts: 259 Fully active user
    ezekel wrote: »
    I'd rather stay skulk, become a lerk, then if I die save skulks until onos or lose the match; going fade looks like a waste of pres because not only is it slower but it seems more energy intensive

    That's exactly what I'm gonna do in Season 3. Not going fade even if I have all upgrades and abilities. I don't feel confident at all with it. I have a harder time hitting marines than with a skulk, and the structure damage is so abysmal it gives the gorge spit a run for its money.
    I'll probably go practice my lerk, and if my team doesn't need me as one, I'll just save for onos, or go gorge if they really need it.
    .StrikerX3 :: Steam :: YouTube :: Twitch.tv :: Blog
  • RedSwordRedSword Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Posts: 308 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    I also feel like the new fade is maybe too nerfed (might need more time to see a good constant public use of vortex). All 3 points (at that degrees) together are facepalming IMO (blink/bhop nerf, adren, building's dmg... that's too much IMO).

    After a week, I feel like fade is more ok as it is, unless when you consider the building. Please revert to 50 :/ (or 65 ;) ) ; fade's attack cost so much energy anyway.
    Post edited by RedSword on
  • ColtColtColtColt Members Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Posts: 131
    Before 250, fade was a high learning curve with unintuitive movement and a high skill ceiling.

    Once BT hit, it became a low skill ceiling, high skill floor and highly intuitive lifeform with very trivial-to-master movement.

    Now it's been nerfed because of the obscenely easy-to-master mechanics and the fact that it was ruining both competitive and public play because every pre-BT mediocre fade became a fade-god, and everyone's complaining that it's back to being clunky and unintuitive.

    I for one am happy with the changes, it's back to most fades being ineffective and having to leverage other lifeforms and actually adapt to some difficult or non-godmode mechanics.

    Sure, it's a pain in the arse and is 'less viable', but that's a good thing in this case.

    -Colt, a pretty snazzy fade.
    Blarney_StonelifesfunGORGEous
  • FrankerZFrankerZ Members Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151627Posts: 163 Advanced user
    i didnt think it was possible to make the skill ceiling lower than the skill floor, but they did it with this new patch
  • GoldenGolden Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Posts: 426 Advanced user
    I don't think its any 'less viable' than in build 251, you actually have to time your blinks and manage your energy now. Both of which are good things.
    Blarney_StoneColtColt
  • current1ycurrent1y Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Posts: 677 Advanced user
    Golden wrote: »
    I don't think its any 'less viable' than in build 251, you actually have to time your blinks and manage your energy now. Both of which are good things.

    They are easier to shoot due to the slower speeds.
    SolidSpider
  • ChucullinnChucullinn Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2013-09-05 Member: 187848Posts: 19 Fully active user
    current1y wrote: »
    Golden wrote: »
    I don't think its any 'less viable' than in build 251, you actually have to time your blinks and manage your energy now. Both of which are good things.

    They are easier to shoot due to the slower speeds.

    That and the fact that shotguns are a bit more accurate and they don't gain any significant hp increases till later in the game makes them a hell of a lot worse to play/easier to deal with, to the point they were over nerfed.
    SolidSpider
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Posts: 259 Fully active user
    For me, it's not about being viable or not. It's about my confidence with the lifeform. I know for sure I will underperform as a Fade and don't want to waste the p.res on it when I could have spent into something more useful. Also, I had no proper practice with the new Fade thanks to a combination of real life, free weekends (= newbies) and no scrims.

    The few moments I played Fade I felt like I was doing worse (and was much less useful) than as a Skulk, so I either have to relearn for the third time how to play this class or just skip it entirely until I have enough practice. I must be missing something obvious here, hopefully you can enlighten me.
    .StrikerX3 :: Steam :: YouTube :: Twitch.tv :: Blog
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    ColtColt wrote: »
    Before 250, fade was a high learning curve with unintuitive movement and a high skill ceiling.

    Once BT hit, it became a low skill ceiling, high skill floor and highly intuitive lifeform with very trivial-to-master movement.

    Now it's been nerfed because of the obscenely easy-to-master mechanics and the fact that it was ruining both competitive and public play because every pre-BT mediocre fade became a fade-god, and everyone's complaining that it's back to being clunky and unintuitive.

    I for one am happy with the changes, it's back to most fades being ineffective and having to leverage other lifeforms and actually adapt to some difficult or non-godmode mechanics.

    Sure, it's a pain in the arse and is 'less viable', but that's a good thing in this case.

    -Colt, a pretty snazzy fade.

    it's not a good thing when going fade is pointless, also the fade before 250 was harder to use; this fade is just a butchered 250 fade, and butchered in the wrong spot -movement-

    take a good look spectating this season, fades will get destroyed assuming early game wasn't pure domination and rines are behind
    SolidSpider
  • ColtColtColtColt Members Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Posts: 131
    ezekel wrote: »
    it's not a good thing when going fade is pointless, also the fade before 250 was harder to use; this fade is just a butchered 250 fade, and butchered in the wrong spot -movement-

    take a good look spectating this season, fades will get destroyed assuming early game wasn't pure domination and rines are behind

    I agree they should never have modified the 249 fade, as it required a much higher amount of skill to manage, and was more rewarding once mastered. However, they did what they did with BT to make it more accessible, and now they've stripped away the usefulness of that level of accessibility.

    People who played phenomenal fades pre-250 are still going to be useful fades in this latest iteration.

    People who are fade superheros because of Balance Test / 250 are now going to be rendered back to what they were: Not superhero fades.





  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Posts: 259 Fully active user
    Useful < phenomenal. Be careful with your words ;)

    I still want to see how Fades will perform in Season 3 before jumping to conclusions, though.
    .StrikerX3 :: Steam :: YouTube :: Twitch.tv :: Blog
  • ColtColtColtColt Members Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Posts: 131
    StrikerX3 wrote: »
    Useful < phenomenal. Be careful with your words ;)

    The wording was intentional, and serves the purpose of conveying the message.

    Phenomenal fades are going to be rendered useful.
    250-babysat-fades are going to be rendered useless.
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Posts: 259 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    ColtColt wrote: »
    StrikerX3 wrote: »
    Useful < phenomenal. Be careful with your words ;)

    The wording was intentional, and serves the purpose of conveying the message.

    Phenomenal fades are going to be rendered useful.
    250-babysat-fades are going to be rendered useless.

    Unless you meant that b254 fades are supposed to perform worse than b249 fades. Which is why I said that
    StrikerX3 wrote: »
    the Fade is still reasonably powerful, but definitely not worth 40 p.res anymore. Maybe 30 or 35 is more like it.
    .StrikerX3 :: Steam :: YouTube :: Twitch.tv :: Blog
  • jostoljostol Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166659Posts: 62
    edited September 2013
    Fades are balanced now. I disagree with the 33dmg to buildings, 55 was a perfectly fine low number before.
    Seriously, blink bhop a few times blink bhop. Now that you actually have to manage your energy people are complaining. Fades still take down marines so easily. Fades weren't made as a tank class, they're a hit and run class. Go in, get one swipe in and run away. Not tank 3 marines around an armory because you can blink and attack, or escape a marine pincer attack closing off your escape routes because blink is so fast and you still have so much energy left.

    I haven't tried the new vortex or stab yet, because I'm in love with the lerk bite speed and most games don't get that far enough to unlock those abilities for the fade.

    I feel the alien lifeforms are much more balanced now. It's nice that skulks are useful (minus collision problems), lerks are good now (can take down buildings now) and fades are still powerful and it looks like even onos is getting useful tweaks.

    Edit: I'd like to remind everyone that NS2 is a team game and not a free-for-all. One class should never be able to tank everything by itself, it should need support from other teammates. I'm glad at these positive changes.
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    jostol wrote: »
    Fades are balanced now. I disagree with the 33dmg to buildings, 55 was a perfectly fine low number before.
    Seriously, blink bhop a few times blink bhop. Now that you actually have to manage your energy people are complaining. Fades still take down marines so easily. Fades weren't made as a tank class, they're a hit and run class. Go in, get one swipe in and run away. Not tank 3 marines around an armory because you can blink and attack, or escape a marine pincer attack closing off your escape routes because blink is so fast and you still have so much energy left.

    I haven't tried the new vortex or stab yet, because I'm in love with the lerk bite speed and most games don't get that far enough to unlock those abilities for the fade.

    I feel the alien lifeforms are much more balanced now. It's nice that skulks are useful (minus collision problems), lerks are good now (can take down buildings now) and fades are still powerful and it looks like even onos is getting useful tweaks.

    Edit: I'd like to remind everyone that NS2 is a team game and not a free-for-all. One class should never be able to tank everything by itself, it should need support from other teammates. I'm glad at these positive changes.

    I don't think you know how good the aim is once you play top tier players, you enter a room in just the smallest wrong engagement and you will eat three direct shotgun blasts and have all of your p.res wasted, p.s not even the old fade could tank everything by itself; it could handle one marine being ignored by medpacks, given medpacks and nano the single fade could barely touch a single SG rine on wep2, fade ball was a different story

    Fade was a hit & run, I predict it will now be a hit & die
  • xDragonxDragon Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    Sorry, no matter how much you try to say 249 fade had a higher skill ceiling, its still completely false. 249 fade movement offered way too many easy ways to correct for mistakes, and too many opportunities to abuse the delays inherent in this engine.. It was harder to pick up than BT fade for sure, but in no way had a higher peak potential once you disregard the things which are out of the opposing players hand. The winrates in anything but div1 games pre 250 were proof of that, the games were massively alien sided because once the basics of fade were learned, it entirely too easy to fight and beat similarly skilled marines - http://i.imgur.com/rCinIkd.gif being a really crappy chart example.

    250 fades individually were not the cause of the poor balance, 1v1 even in 250 a good marine was still stronger. It was 4 fades in a pack that was too strong, and the map mobility which they had at all times. Perhaps 254 takes it too far, but honestly after having 60%+ alien win rates since B190 (aside from a couple whack builds perhaps), I honestly cannot understand why a single person would complain.

    LocklearUnderwhelmed
  • diehardougie5diehardougie5 Members Join Date: 2013-07-11 Member: 186049Posts: 4
    agree with xDragon is not about the individual fades its the fade pack that's the problem a fade that can go in a kill a whole bunch of marines single handedly is a awesome fade yes but probably against a team of bad marines. The fade ball was the problem, and I think the balance fixed that fades have to be selective when they go in and coordinate with the commander, fades can still devastate marines in pubs it just requires teamwork, and that's the point of NS2. I think the developers have tested this time and time again before they released the build so complaining about it doesn't really help but working with your team does. Another issue with the fade balance is that usually you see fades before marines with jetpacks and shotguns which are the best counter to that particular life form. The marine comms usually don't go for prototype lab fast because of the resource commitment it requires and the fact that you usually need the mobility of phase tech first to deal with skulks harassing your harvesters and to provide aggressive pressure on alien hives. Again balance changes require everyone to adapt to a different play style but teamwork and unit cohesion wins the game not higher lifeforms or higher marine tech.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    So yesterday was the first opportunity I had to try the new build in about a week. (Yay university stealing all my time.) Anyway, I personally am quite pleased with the changes. Energy conservation is now a crucial part of being a good fade. Movement was altered to the point where you have to use energy to keep up high rates of speed. Mistakes will basically brick your fade at any point in the engagement. I am not sure if this will really raise the skill ceiling per say but it definitely lowered the skill floor. It takes a bit more concentration than facerolling they keyboard to fade now.

    That being said, the fade changes have been out for less than a week and people are already whining. Give it time. People will adapt. I would like to see some w/l ratios for the next few weeks before stating any more opinions.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    Fading was just too easy in b250. You could tap blink once and strafejump all over the map while hardly losing any speed. That sort of unhindered mobility made the fade packs even more potent than before. So I think it was a good move to increase its energy cost. Now, imo the fade might have been nerfed slightly too much in terms of speed dropoff, and I'm not completely sold on the structure damage reduction as well, but let's just see how people adapt to it first.
    StrikerX3
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