hmm, last time I tried, it wouldnt let me....could've been a bug though, only tried once
Edit: Confirmed that it does work! (hooray!) I tried it in sandbox mode on the first version of reinforced (252?) so maybe it was broke due to all the other madness
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
yes step stab was intentional and should work
regarding the beta mod: i would like to get especially feedback on "aliens can choose spawn location", since that is the most realistic change to make in the game atm. it influences balance of course, thats why its now (so short after a big update) not just added but released via the mod for testing. let me know your thoughts
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Played a few rounds with it today, some feedback:
1) The implementation is a bit weird of choosing your spawn. Since the selection cursor works like a waypoint, its not really clear if you're picking the literal specific location of your egg spawn (ie... in the far right of the hive in the corner), or just choosing that hive spawn in general then you join the spawn queue like normal.
^ The 'waypoint' method should be removed, and have it just highlight the hive you've chosen to spawn at on the map. Nice and clear. If you haven't spawned yet, you can still change your mind quickly and choose a different hive before you're plopped down in your egg.
2) While we're at it, the commander should have this ability, so he can channel spawned reinforcements to a certain hive in a crisis. Would that be too OP? Maybe a little blinking red egg on the minimap on the hive would alert players they cannot choose their spawn until the alert is over.
Even if the evolution chamber doesnt make it in, please at least move the lifeform-upgrades to the hive. I find it so confusing to build a whip and select it to get skulk-upgrades for example.
1) The implementation is a bit weird of choosing your spawn. Since the selection cursor works like a waypoint, its not really clear if you're picking the literal specific location of your egg spawn (ie... in the far right of the hive in the corner), or just choosing that hive spawn in general then you join the spawn queue like normal.
^ The 'waypoint' method should be removed, and have it just highlight the hive you've chosen to spawn at on the map. Nice and clear. If you haven't spawned yet, you can still change your mind quickly and choose a different hive before you're plopped down in your egg.
2) While we're at it, the commander should have this ability, so he can channel spawned reinforcements to a certain hive in a crisis. Would that be too OP? Maybe a little blinking red egg on the minimap on the hive would alert players they cannot choose their spawn until the alert is over.
so you want me to write code that makes you wait until eggs are available? i dont think that works out nice. all that spawn mod is doing is chosing the closest egg to where you last clicked, thats all. if you prefer to wait another 10 seconds, im sure we can do something about it, but you probably would already be were you wanted to be in that time
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
...all that spawn mod is doing is chosing the closest egg to where you last clicked, thats all. if you prefer to wait another 10 seconds
I see. It's fine as is then.
if you prefer to wait another 10 seconds, im sure we can do something about it, but you probably would already be were you wanted to be in that time
This is not what I was meaning to convey. Your explanation above cleared it up, its fine as is.
so you want me to write code that makes you wait until eggs are available? i dont think that works out nice.
What i was meaning to say is, if you click to spawn on pipeline hive location, then suddenly there's a shotgun rush at subsector, you can click subsector to switch there if you make it in time before you're plopped into an egg. The current hatch time is fine an shouldn't be adjusted. You can already do what I'm describing so its a non-issue.
Essentially, its fine how it is now that I understand how it works.
I think gorges should be allowed to build as many hydras as they want, however limit the hydras to maybe 3-4 per room/location in total.
Thoughts?
Recycling hydras to get the p-res back would hold the building counter down (good for performance) and allow the gorge to follow the front-line more dynamically.
Let me just drop 3 hydras in every room of the map and tell me how they're not OP then... Yes you can kill them one at a time one clip each, need a lot of med and ammo support as well, but it just took you 30 seconds to clear each room in order to get anywhere.
It's a tank with a medkit gun. If it's playing correctly and is assisting/being assisted by skulks, it can be almost impossible to kill without a ton of meds. Even alone, with 3 hydras you need meds to take it out. It just jumps around drawing fire while the skulks kill you, OR, you shoot the skulks and they take 4 bullets more each to kill from healing. Don't get me started on hydras + gorge + skulks.
Also, bile bomb (which got buffed this patch LOL).
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Hydras could be better though. They should scale with continued pres investment, could either unlimit hydras for this or make it so that hydras can be upgraded (1 stem thing at first, can be upgraded to 3). At the moment they're so strong early, but are laughable later on.
Hydras could be better though. They should scale with continued pres investment, could either unlimit hydras for this or make it so that hydras can be upgraded (1 stem thing at first, can be upgraded to 3). At the moment they're so strong early, but are laughable later on.
My only issue with hydras is their relatively small range, such that marines can just sprint to a place out of range of the hydras and gun them down without taking any damage (after the initial damage if they take some getting into position). Yea yea, don't leave em undefended, smart hydra placement etc. but still, it is lame when you miscalculate the range or whatever and have somebody gun them down from a distance while they pose zero threat
Personally, I'd like to see the hydra range cap moved, always hit their target at full damage within a certain range, and outside that range, will always hit stationary targets at full damage, but a moving target will recieve no damage or reduced damage depending on distance from hydra and speed (and direction of travel relative to the hydra. Obviously a marine sprinting towards a hydra should recieve full damage as it's practically the same as stationary).
Failing that, some sort of indication of range when you place the hydra would be awesome.
As for building infinite hydras. I never liked having a hard cap on structures, although I guess spam is a problem and will concede that it's the right call for maintaining quality gameplay. However, this was one of the great things about ns1. Freedom. And if people chose to use that freedom to build a gigantic wall of lame, then who are we to argue? It's not like a seige cannon or grenade launcher wont turn all of that into a gigantic waste of resources
My only issue with hydras is their relatively small range, such that marines can just sprint to a place out of range of the hydras and gun them down without taking any damage (after the initial damage if they take some getting into position). Yea yea, don't leave em undefended, smart hydra placement etc. but still, it is lame when you miscalculate the range or whatever and have somebody gun them down from a distance while they pose zero threat
Personally, I'd like to see the hydra range cap moved, always hit their target at full damage within a certain range, and outside that range, will always hit stationary targets at full damage, but a moving target will recieve no damage or reduced damage depending on distance from hydra and speed (and direction of travel relative to the hydra. Obviously a marine sprinting towards a hydra should recieve full damage as it's practically the same as stationary).
Failing that, some sort of indication of range when you place the hydra would be awesome.
As for building infinite hydras. I never liked having a hard cap on structures, although I guess spam is a problem and will concede that it's the right call for maintaining quality gameplay. However, this was one of the great things about ns1. Freedom. And if people chose to use that freedom to build a gigantic wall of lame, then who are we to argue? It's not like a seige cannon or grenade launcher wont turn all of that into a gigantic waste of resources
They're still emptying clips so if someone shows up they can kill a reloading marine.
I'm not a fan of the new tech tree at all. Do we really need to completely restructure the alien tree again? Particularly with a system that allows hive 1 stomp? I would say no.
Keep the current system, just make each ability researched separately and on an evolution chamber and we're good.
Selecting spawn location:
I personally dont like how it's reducing the importance of gorge tunnels. Still not completely opposed to the idea, has some good sides aswell.
New tech tree
Looks like you took biomass out again, please don't! Thought is was a nice way for aliens to scale better with marines and also restrict things like hive1 stomp like Blarney said. Isn't there some sort of hybrid solution possible, that is not too complicated? Suggestion: Tie basic abilitys like leap, shadowstep, bile bomb and so on to biomass and make advanced upgrades like stomp and vortex only reseachable on the hive, but with a minimum biomass requirement
Also something I suggested earlier now more elaborated: The addition of the evolution chamber
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
that tech tree is an experiment, a lot of people (since beta) wanted to see a "slot system" being tested. now after playing a few rounds, it became pretty fast obvious that this kind of tech tree wont work. it could work if all abilities would be toned down to tier 1 strength, but then it will be difficult to end games again (marine turtle), and it also makes cookie cutter builds even a bigger problem.
that tech tree is an experiment, a lot of people (since beta) wanted to see a "slot system" being tested. now after playing a few rounds, it became pretty fast obvious that this kind of tech tree wont work. it could work if all abilities would be toned down to tier 1 strength, but then it will be difficult to end games again (marine turtle), and it also makes cookie cutter builds even a bigger problem.
Yea, reworking all abilitys would mean a huge amout of work which is most likely not wanted by a lot of players. Glad you reverted those changes.
If you want to stick with the evolution chamber for now I still hope you're giving it a thought to move more of the advanced abilitys there instead of the lifeform-upgrades. So the chamber acts more like a prototype-lab than an arms-lab (the biomass is the arms-lab in this case, because it gives hp and basic upgrades). Hope this makes sense
@Sewlek do you have an ETA on the next patch? I would say that most of the current BT changes are no-brainers, I'd put everything besides RFK in today if I could.
Well, this experimental tech tree is definitely an interesting one. I think the problem is, in order for such a thing to work, you probably need to find a way to scale the abilities as well, so that some abilities are not OP early game, or not useless late game. Also, the current iteration makes it all a bit convoluted with the new pairings and hive specialisations also linked to abilities and taking up spots.
I prefer the upgrade chamber idea you had before. Maybe you could try that again, but with un-clustered abilities? I just like having more control over what specific abilities I can upgrade.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Trading the tech requirements of Babbler and Web should make both abilities more fun to use. Babblers could be made more powerful if they become late-game tech.
However it's implemented I definitely like the idea of a dedicated evolution chamber responsible for researching abilities. It just makes more sense that way, and the khamm has always had a lot of problems with lack of intuitiveness.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited September 2013
yeah im going to stick with the evolution chamber for now. however, its difficult to justify the cost / artists time with something as boring as this so this thing needs to do more than just be an "research station". i was thinking about an ability called "symbiosis", the evolution chamber can attach to a structure (crag, hydra, shade etc) and increases the effectiveness of that structures passive ability. so a crag would simply heal more then (good opportunity to create a more interesting ability than heal wave), hydras more accurate / higher damage etc., and in exchange, the evolution chamber researches faster.
the question is if all structures can be used (resource tower generates more res, hive heals faster??) or exclude those 2 (since you anyway have those structures and I would like to indirectly promote usage of crag / shade etc)
Comments
Edit: Confirmed that it does work! (hooray!) I tried it in sandbox mode on the first version of reinforced (252?) so maybe it was broke due to all the other madness
regarding the beta mod: i would like to get especially feedback on "aliens can choose spawn location", since that is the most realistic change to make in the game atm. it influences balance of course, thats why its now (so short after a big update) not just added but released via the mod for testing. let me know your thoughts
1) The implementation is a bit weird of choosing your spawn. Since the selection cursor works like a waypoint, its not really clear if you're picking the literal specific location of your egg spawn (ie... in the far right of the hive in the corner), or just choosing that hive spawn in general then you join the spawn queue like normal.
^ The 'waypoint' method should be removed, and have it just highlight the hive you've chosen to spawn at on the map. Nice and clear. If you haven't spawned yet, you can still change your mind quickly and choose a different hive before you're plopped down in your egg.
2) While we're at it, the commander should have this ability, so he can channel spawned reinforcements to a certain hive in a crisis. Would that be too OP? Maybe a little blinking red egg on the minimap on the hive would alert players they cannot choose their spawn until the alert is over.
so you want me to write code that makes you wait until eggs are available? i dont think that works out nice. all that spawn mod is doing is chosing the closest egg to where you last clicked, thats all. if you prefer to wait another 10 seconds, im sure we can do something about it, but you probably would already be were you wanted to be in that time
I see. It's fine as is then.
This is not what I was meaning to convey. Your explanation above cleared it up, its fine as is.
What i was meaning to say is, if you click to spawn on pipeline hive location, then suddenly there's a shotgun rush at subsector, you can click subsector to switch there if you make it in time before you're plopped into an egg. The current hatch time is fine an shouldn't be adjusted. You can already do what I'm describing so its a non-issue.
Essentially, its fine how it is now that I understand how it works.
Thoughts?
I think this is against the UWE design philosophy which is to keep player-versus-structures to minimum.
Because gorges aren't OP enough right now.
Recycling hydras to get the p-res back would hold the building counter down (good for performance) and allow the gorge to follow the front-line more dynamically.
How so?
Let me just drop 3 hydras in every room of the map and tell me how they're not OP then... Yes you can kill them one at a time one clip each, need a lot of med and ammo support as well, but it just took you 30 seconds to clear each room in order to get anywhere.
It's a tank with a medkit gun. If it's playing correctly and is assisting/being assisted by skulks, it can be almost impossible to kill without a ton of meds. Even alone, with 3 hydras you need meds to take it out. It just jumps around drawing fire while the skulks kill you, OR, you shoot the skulks and they take 4 bullets more each to kill from healing. Don't get me started on hydras + gorge + skulks.
Also, bile bomb (which got buffed this patch LOL).
Why not Zoidb..., err biomass?
Personally, I'd like to see the hydra range cap moved, always hit their target at full damage within a certain range, and outside that range, will always hit stationary targets at full damage, but a moving target will recieve no damage or reduced damage depending on distance from hydra and speed (and direction of travel relative to the hydra. Obviously a marine sprinting towards a hydra should recieve full damage as it's practically the same as stationary).
Failing that, some sort of indication of range when you place the hydra would be awesome.
As for building infinite hydras. I never liked having a hard cap on structures, although I guess spam is a problem and will concede that it's the right call for maintaining quality gameplay. However, this was one of the great things about ns1. Freedom. And if people chose to use that freedom to build a gigantic wall of lame, then who are we to argue?
They're still emptying clips so if someone shows up they can kill a reloading marine.
Keep the current system, just make each ability researched separately and on an evolution chamber and we're good.
I personally dont like how it's reducing the importance of gorge tunnels. Still not completely opposed to the idea, has some good sides aswell.
New tech tree
Looks like you took biomass out again, please don't! Thought is was a nice way for aliens to scale better with marines and also restrict things like hive1 stomp like Blarney said. Isn't there some sort of hybrid solution possible, that is not too complicated?
Suggestion: Tie basic abilitys like leap, shadowstep, bile bomb and so on to biomass and make advanced upgrades like stomp and vortex only reseachable on the hive, but with a minimum biomass requirement
Also something I suggested earlier now more elaborated: The addition of the evolution chamber
Yea, reworking all abilitys would mean a huge amout of work which is most likely not wanted by a lot of players. Glad you reverted those changes.
If you want to stick with the evolution chamber for now I still hope you're giving it a thought to move more of the advanced abilitys there instead of the lifeform-upgrades. So the chamber acts more like a prototype-lab than an arms-lab (the biomass is the arms-lab in this case, because it gives hp and basic upgrades). Hope this makes sense
sniped a carapace shell? there goes 30 res. and carapace
now what happens when you snipe a shell? people barely even care
I prefer the upgrade chamber idea you had before. Maybe you could try that again, but with un-clustered abilities? I just like having more control over what specific abilities I can upgrade.
the question is if all structures can be used (resource tower generates more res, hive heals faster??) or exclude those 2 (since you anyway have those structures and I would like to indirectly promote usage of crag / shade etc)