New Alien Khammander management
Cee Colon Slash
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
I feel the overhaul of the khammander tech tree, and management in general, is unfairly punitive.
The new system denies the khammander (and commander) any res, so they can't go gorge at the beginning: this requires them to create expensive drifters to build anything at worthwhile speed. I can foresee games where a player jumps in to be khammander to start the game, then jumps out so another player can go gorge, and jump in. Sure the original player will be skulk for a longer time, but what problem has been solved here?
I really dislike this new model where you have to build each structure so you can research the various species upgrades. I rarely place whips, so now I have to place one in order to research leap. I don't see any reasoning behind this. I suppose the thinking is that this is offset by both upgrades being available when they're researched for the species. I guess this is just an adaptation problem, but it doesn't feel right. Last build took some adjustment, but made sense to me. This one doesn't.
Honestly feels like the devs are throwing different models at the alien khammander model to see which one sticks best, rather than having a cohesive plan. Isn't this game out of beta?
C.
The new system denies the khammander (and commander) any res, so they can't go gorge at the beginning: this requires them to create expensive drifters to build anything at worthwhile speed. I can foresee games where a player jumps in to be khammander to start the game, then jumps out so another player can go gorge, and jump in. Sure the original player will be skulk for a longer time, but what problem has been solved here?
I really dislike this new model where you have to build each structure so you can research the various species upgrades. I rarely place whips, so now I have to place one in order to research leap. I don't see any reasoning behind this. I suppose the thinking is that this is offset by both upgrades being available when they're researched for the species. I guess this is just an adaptation problem, but it doesn't feel right. Last build took some adjustment, but made sense to me. This one doesn't.
Honestly feels like the devs are throwing different models at the alien khammander model to see which one sticks best, rather than having a cohesive plan. Isn't this game out of beta?
C.
Comments
Can't we just have all the research done at the hive?
Build 250: Auto-ability-unlock when a hive is built -> Biomass + individually researchable abilities At this point, I'm not sure whether the deciding factor was limitations of the menu system (perhaps it can only nest menus to a certain depth), the size of the art team (not enough time/artists to design, model & animate enough new chambers) or if it was just a 'clever' idea.
Build 252: More abilities And thus, we are left with a horribly convoluted upgrade system.
The no res for com thing is pretty terrible, too. What is alien com supposed to do? Alt-tab and browse pornhub while he's waiting for the game to end?
My only beef with new alien upgrades is it obviously costs more and gains less now, which aligns with every other alien "balance" decision in this patch, instead of addressing each issue they've seemed to nerf aliens at every single possible turn with no cost/benefit being considered at all, everything is now worse and costs more, I wouldn't be so pissed except I've already played this, it was called build 239, it was horrible, I don't want to play build 239 ever again.
I havnt heard anyone else complain about this but i dropped 3 hydras next to each other and when i went to build/heal them they built one at a time... does this mean that heal spray only heals one thing at a time like crags, or build one thing at a time..... ITS A SPRAY!!! similar in shape/size/functionality to a mist... SPRAYS arnt targeted unless my gorge is now a freaking squirt gun and the animation hasent been updated...
The problem that has been solved is alien commanders popping down two chains, 2 RTs, then exiting the hive to go around and gorge build them...
Alien commander was never meant to assist in alien expansion outside of the hive. All it did was add another player into the offensive push/combat mix.
Imagine the marine commander getting out and running around the map building things himself.
This was compounded by many factors, from gorge price, to commander starting pres, to the alien team not needing to assist in expansion early game if they were pressuring marines enough.
Removing starting pres from the commander helps greatly alleviate this issue, and keeps the commander in the chair, and now hopefully with more things to do as well.
Requiring structures for upgrades was a weird uncommunicated change.. but things are better now and you can see which structures are linked to what - both in the descriptions / mouse overs.. but also with the J key.
I also didnt like it at first (when 250 came out) but it really gave a reason to use those structures more.. and thus it ends up serving your team better anyways.
the recent lumping of upgrades into lifeform specific i still do not agree with however.
this is just a sloppy alien nerf
not saying aliens didn't need nerfs, but there are better ways...
there's a 60 second cooldown on PRES income? it's just sloppy
alien team was always about field commanding and getting whoever died to jump in the hive and press a button and get back to the real game
the expensive and useless drifter micro is nothing compared to marine comm support
Drifter micro is not weak by any means, though. Good use of enzyme and mucous can easily turn the tide of important battles.
lol what are you talking about bro. alien com still has virtually nothing important to do after you drop structures and buy upgrades. Drifters cost 8 res, no way am I sending 8 tres into combat to die when I could just use that towards a gorge egg. Bonewall and rupture are cool but highly situational and only work on infested ground. Mucous and Storm got nerfed (or so i've been told, i rarely used them in the first place so i didn't test it). Enzyme is cool but I'd rather the com not use it on me while I'm fighting, it fucks up the timing for my swipes and bites. It's great for powering down a structure but that's about it.
I found commanding fun on a competitive level (and bearable on a pub level) partially because as an alien commander although my pres was significantly nerfed I was still able to be somewhat involved in the game. Now I literally just fucking sit there and because my drifters cost 8 I better be in that hive to micro them away from danger because that's a 34 bullet kill (w0) that costs me 8 tres (same as a harvester.).
This game just got a lot less fun for Alien commanders. And i'm not saying anything is broken. I'm just bored. Balance test made the game fun to command again, this made it a lot more boring. I don't know how long I can play a game that i'm not enjoying.
That being said, if this adds to balance. That's great. I'm sure 5/6th's of every team will enjoy it.
no, because when you eventually do get a lifeform out, say a gorge to heal things, and you need someone to hop in the hive to drop a cyst. now that 5/6s of the team will lose something like 5 pres for recysting.
Yeah, this new system is absolutely terrible in every. single. way. It punishes the whole alien team in multiple ways. Commander starts with no res, if you want an early gorge you have to make a compromise and have a late fade, when com gets out on the field to do something, whoever hops in the chair to recyst/nutrient mist gets hit with a 60 second res penalty.. its fucking ridiculous. It's pretty bullshit for marines, too. Com should be able to put mines in base or buy a shotgun for one of his homies. Completely unnecessary mechanic that was asked for by absolutely no one. If balance is an issue, we just tested some great ideas to fix that in the ENSL summer cup.
Marine comm jumps out to build base structures, defend base and sometimes used phase gate for forward base defense, buys mines to protect against base rush (can't do that anymore)... alien comm only went gorge to do practically the same things the marine comm did. Not unbalanced before 252, just plain boring after. Thank you devs for making me never want to comm another pub game ever again. And yes almost everyone agrees that the devs f'ed up with the new upgrade system... I'm seriously starting to doubt the dev team even plays their game or understands what the community even wants.
"Some khamms sometimes go gorge and use gorge abilities. Let's punish everyone by stripping them of pres"
How about... not letting khamm to evolve to gorge one minute after leaving the hive or not letting him build/heal for that time if he is already a gorge? Doesn't THIS seem to be a fair solution for THAT problem?
And if you pay the price for a gorge egg, ok.. then that sets you back X amount.. Sewlek felt that was a reasonable penalty i guess.
I agree the 60 sec CD should be removed, its not necessary.
If you try them all, you'll find what @narfwak said is true.. there's a lot more to do now. Its not perfect.. it may not be as fun as it could be, but its far more influencing than "drop and go"
Would like to hear what alternate ideas you have though?
@Side1Bu2Rnz9 theres a huge difference between stepping out the comm chair to build something 1 foot from you, and running multiple rooms away to build your RTs. Also a huge difference in micro between the two, marine commander demands your presence in the chair much more.
@xen32 That idea was far more unintuitive and not communicated?? All ears for something else tho. (like more useful micro)
Ironhorse and I have been whining about the grouped lifeform upgrade system for a while, so yeah, that's not just you. It's fine in concept, but it breaks down because of how it interferes with ability costs and timing (and I think the costs aren't very well adjusted right now either). Small balance numbers like that are relatively easy for andi to change in small hotfixes down the line, though, and it's worth noting that the testing group cannot possibly test for too much in-depth metagame and strategic variation because of how few players there are in the test group.
Solving a problem needs to actually hit the root.
The alien commander does not have anything more important than to be a gorge in a push. Healing and bilebomb are way, way, way, way, way, way more important than drifters and their pusedo abilities. Hell they nerfed drifters this patch. Can they at least be consistent in what they want?
Do you know what happened when we discovered we couldn't gorge anymore? we jumped out of the hive and just skulked. look at this solution work. seriously. you could've asked ANY decent competitive player, and they would've told you oh, the com will just get out and SKULK.
The alien commander is now more influencing on the battlefield, demanding more of your time and is therefore more meaningful. But if you dont try to use these features and just "drop and go".. then yea.. its going to be a boring experience.
Now if said influencing actions while commanding as an alien are boring or need reworking, then that's definitely something i agree needs more work and could use some suggestions from the community.
I maintain its still in the right direction, though, embracing a commander that feels like they need to be in the hive.
@kaneh the change wasn't made for mid-end game.
omg the com skulks now. wooooo. nothing solved.
I don't know why you think sewlek didn't get competitive player's opinions on the matter? that's quite the assumption.
How is skulking a work around exactly?
And as Kaneh pointed out the whole thing is beside the point anyway because it's easy enough to have someone else gorge early and have the commander play as a skulk. So the commander isn't even forced into the hive as was intended.
So, yeah, I don't test with competitive players, but competitive players do test NS2.
I obviously agree that the lumped upgrades reduces said meaningfulness