@Soylent_green
What?! How on earth could you possibly think that? Practise is trying X to produce effect, Y, finding that X appears to produce a sub-optimal effect, and thus, if you are capable, altering X and seeing what that does. That is what practise is about.
Two problems with this.
1) UWE isn't doing exactly the same thing over and over. If they did exactly the same thing the patches should be byte-wise identical. Clearly this isn't what we're talking about.
2) Most of the time you know exactly what to do, but you are physically unable to do it. Either because your muscles are too weak, or you haven't acquired the fine motor skill or motor-memory to do it. Your trying to do EXACTLY the same thing over and over and over until your body cooperates.
If you're experimenting with lots of different approaches, you're learning, but you're no longer practicing. Practicising specifically refers to repetion.
You can argue that the line is blurry, and that practice actually entails lots of subtle variations; but then, if the variations are so subtle people will still say you're doing the same thing over and over because that's what it looks like.
You're both wrong "trying the same thing over and over expecting different result." is the definition of insanity.
Metal ManJoin Date: 2011-11-13Member: 132717Members
edited July 2013
Ironhorse, I'm guessing you deleted my post because of the few swear words and not for simply stating my opinion. I apologize and will try not to swear on these forums again. However, I wasn't being over the top nor was I being extremely hostile. You need to keep your post deleting in check... I was trying to get my point across and it isn't productive to delete postings on mature forums like these because of a few adult words. Anyone, including you, should be able to handle some tasteful profanity. Stop deleting my posts to feed your fat, trigger happy finger. Now on to my point.
Although the alien commander is flawed, and more importantly, lessens the game experience for the gorge, I don't think this is what ruined NS2. It is weak now but I believe it can be fixed. Mainly by increasing the alien commanders role in combat while simultaneously increasing the gorges impact on expansion and growth (consequences). In brief, the death of a gorge needs to halt or hinder growth/expansion and the absence of a khamm needs to hinder the aliens in combat.
Now, it is of MY opinion that casual gamers, and UWE's consideration of them, are a big component of this games ruin. Casuals should change their expectations of NS2 (regardless of whether it is true or not). I believe that this game will find its greatest success and triumph by eliminating (or ignoring) the casual components of its game design. A majority of people who played NS1 came to this game expecting the same fast-paced intense fps/rts experience. ASIDE from the horrid performance (which is being improved by leaps and bounds), I think it was the watered down combat that ruined this game. UWE tried to create a bridge between the comp and casual scene, and in essence, turned all the comp (or, as I like to call them, PC!!!!!!) players away. MOST people play an online PC game expecting a challenge. All that was left were the select few players who took the game super seriously and all the extremely casual gamers who did not care AT ALL. This resulted in a HUGE bridge between the average and experience player.
Basically, what I'm saying is the average PC gamer wants a more challenging game. Let's call them the middle class. When the middle class thrives, the upper class (competitive players thrive) and the lower class (casuals) reap from the benefits as well (larger community, MORE AVERAGE players, more stable servers). By catering to the lower class, and serving food from soup kitchens and giving away free clothing, you TURN AWAY the average PC gamer, who wants to work and earn his own things.
So that is my opinion. I am not saying casual gamers shouldn't have a place in UWE. There will always be some casuals around. But I truly believe that this game will find true success (better game, better servers, larger community) by IGNORING the casual ideas for game design. If they strive to make this game as fast and competitive and challenging as possible, IT WILL REBOUND.
PLEASE IRONHORSE, do not delete my post. If I have said anything that is not appropriate just let me know what I did that was against the rules. I am trying to contribute to the future of this game.
P.S Everyone else on these forums gets caught up on pages and pages of worthless, insignificant drivel... i dunno, such as the definition of insanity. How is the definition of insanity and where it came to relevant to this thread or these forums. Those are the posts that should be discouraged, NOT actual posts with constructive insight and a smattering of curse words.
You're both wrong "trying the same thing over and over expecting different result." is the definition of insanity.
1) Not an Einstein quote. Probably a Rita Mae Brown quote from the 1980's.
2) Pick up a quality dictionary and read the definition of insanity. Insanity has no scientific definition; it's a legal term and a term of every day use for foolishness.
Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is exactly what you do when you are practicing playing a piano, or practicing wall-hopping or exercising.
Ironhorse, I'm guessing you deleted my post because of the few swear words and not for simply stating my opinion. I apologize and will try not to swear on these forums again. However, I wasn't being over the top nor was I being extremely hostile. You need to keep your post deleting in check... I was trying to get my point across and it isn't productive to delete postings on mature forums like these because of a few adult words.
I actually don't care about swearing and will never moderate it, even if you side step the filter - i just don't care unless its hateful.
More importantly i will never edit or delete your post based on it's content.
What I do care about is how you respond to other members of this forum and community.
Calling certain ones "worthless flies" , "cancer" and telling them to "shut their fucking mouths".. is unacceptable and creates a hostile environment to post in - essentially you become a bully in the room, and taint what you yourself consider to be "mature forums".
Also, admins are not here to clean up the mess you create... So if you don't want your posts decimated by snips or deleted entirely, post in a more civilized manner...
Lastly, if you have a problem with what happened you can PM me instead of airing it publicly.
I never turned the tooltips in NS1 off, because everytime I was close to an invisible sensory chamber, they would kindly inform me that "this is a sensory chamber - kill it". I obliged.
edit: wait, this isn't the thread I'm looking for.
edit: wait, it is, but this just isn't the page I'm looking for.
Well one of the ugly things about the current res system is that you can just suicide rush with skulks in the start and no harm is done even if you lose all your skulks. You'll have the eggs to spawn, no res was lost or given to enemy and you will still make it in time to harass the other side before they have 2nd rt up or before marine push reaches your rts.
@Soylent_green
What?! How on earth could you possibly think that? Practise is trying X to produce effect, Y, finding that X appears to produce a sub-optimal effect, and thus, if you are capable, altering X and seeing what that does. That is what practise is about.
Two problems with this.
1) UWE isn't doing exactly the same thing over and over. If they did exactly the same thing the patches should be byte-wise identical. Clearly this isn't what we're talking about.
2) Most of the time you know exactly what to do, but you are physically unable to do it. Either because your muscles are too weak, or you haven't acquired the fine motor skill or motor-memory to do it. Your trying to do EXACTLY the same thing over and over and over until your body cooperates.
If you're experimenting with lots of different approaches, you're learning, but you're no longer practicing. Practicising specifically refers to repetion.
You can argue that the line is blurry, and that practice actually entails lots of subtle variations; but then, if the variations are so subtle people will still say you're doing the same thing over and over because that's what it looks like.
Your first point is irrelevant to my reply. I did not contend that part of the comment I first replied to.
You are incorrect in your second assertion. Most of the time, you do know what to do, but you do not know how to do it. How does one hit a 140mph serve in the box? How does one navigate past four footballers, whilst maintaining the ball? The latter in particular requires much physical ability, and furthermore, much mental ability (you need to be able to predict what the opponents are going to do so that you are one step ahead). You can watch someone all you want and think you know what to do (which you most probably do), but this does not mean you know how to do it.
Though practise requires repetition, it also requires adjustments once we have realised that what we're doing is sub-optimal. In your final paragraph, you seem to admit this point. When we say, "I am going to practise", does anyone interpret this as, "well he's not going to learn anything then"? No - not at all. This is why dictionary definitions often require some nuanced interpretation. And this is the key - nuance. Also, understand that those people saying it looks like you're doing the same thing over and over are the very same people who do not understand what you're doing. To any veteran of whatever it is that you're doing, it will be clear that these variations are very real. If my mother looks over my shoulder and sees myself and Tane playing, even if she gets to see the score, she will simply say that, according to your logic at least, that he is doing the same thing as me. Undoubtedly he does certain things the same as me, such as pressing a button. Moreover he will do certain things better than me, such as aiming. But he will also do things I don't even do. Though these may be considered subtle variations to the layman it is clear just how important they are, and as such, they are different.
Edit: After reading this back I realise how dirty the sentence about myself and Tane now looks.
I'd like to hear what you think is "casual" about NS2.
There are no progress bars. No achievements. No daily challenges. There is nothing for a player who wants to jump in, get some positive feedback, and jump out.
Re: the khamm vs no-khamm debate;
The khamm role is not hard. The only way to screw up is to build whips instead of upgrades and harvesters. If a bad khamm just tries to drop harvesters and upgrades and hives they will do more than enough to win their team the game. These tasks are very low pulse and easy to accomplish if the khamm has a basic understanding of the gameplay.
The barrier to entry in NS2 is in general high. The ns1 crowd doesn't see it, to us its simpler than last time around. 250 should have held off a week so a new set of tooltips, tutorial vids, and the wiki could be updated. TNS2 is increasingly a game of secret sauces, this is why it is a niche game.
I'd also approve seeing a coach system for commanders added with some conditional tips. Helpful notions such as:
-Hi, its 4:00 minutes in to the game and you haven't done anything... are you trying to lose?
-You should try to have at least 3 safe RT's at all times, have some marines/aliens secure [insert nearby room here].
-You have too much tres, research [insert upgrade here] at [insert structure here].
*Game Starts for marine comm* - You have 6:00 minutes to prepare for the fadepocalypse.
Will this alone make good comms? No. Will it give comms who don't have a field commander to help them do better? Sure. Does it definitely need a checkbox to disable in the options menu? YES.
Should gorges be able to drop shifts/shades/crags when the appropriate hive is built? Yes!!!! Even better would be a unique gorge only structure associated with each. If you gorge all game and backline till late you'll be sitting on res you'll never spend.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Well one of the ugly things about the current res system is that you can just suicide rush with skulks in the start and no harm is done even if you lose all your skulks. You'll have the eggs to spawn, no res was lost or given to enemy and you will still make it in time to harass the other side before they have 2nd rt up or before marine push reaches your rts.
I think this should be highlighted some more. In nearly all circumstances, there is no reason not to 5 skulk crush one side at the beginning of the game. It doesn't cost anything in terms of eggs or slow down alien rt expansion at all due to the alien commander.
Well one of the ugly things about the current res system is that you can just suicide rush with skulks in the start and no harm is done even if you lose all your skulks. You'll have the eggs to spawn, no res was lost or given to enemy and you will still make it in time to harass the other side before they have 2nd rt up or before marine push reaches your rts.
I think this should be highlighted some more. In nearly all circumstances, there is no reason not to 5 skulk crush one side at the beginning of the game. It doesn't cost anything in terms of eggs or slow down alien rt expansion at all due to the alien commander.
This is the reason I don't play the game right now, it's fucking broken and ruins the game for me, having to watch one side inevitably get crushed.
Well one of the ugly things about the current res system is that you can just suicide rush with skulks in the start and no harm is done even if you lose all your skulks. You'll have the eggs to spawn, no res was lost or given to enemy and you will still make it in time to harass the other side before they have 2nd rt up or before marine push reaches your rts.
then after 7-8 mins u have fades out on the field.
1 thing that woukd be neat is that when u kill a player the lose say 0.30rez and the player that kills him gains his 0.30 rez or even give it to the team in Tres there for players have more reason to stay alive.
Edit: After reading this back I realise how dirty the sentence about myself and Tane now looks.
I like it dirty
Actually with v250 I think NS2 is tactically and teamwork wise as good as NS1. It's different and there are some problems like the fade explosion in mid game. It forces mid and late game to be group vs. group play most of the time, which don't give you much variation. But in overall, your tactical choices are even with NS1. During EU Open 2013 I actually enjoyed doing tacs. I freaking wrote 10 pages tactical notebook to my teammates... and that was only the marine play.
A problem is that teamwork and tactics have replaced too much individual skill. I always thought that NS1 had perfect mix of skill, teamwork and tactics. What is lacking is the higher personal skill curve which didn't have limits in NS1. You could always get better. Not going to write an essay about it, but the biggest problem lies in the marine movement. If a good skulk gets close to marine it's only aim+medspam vs. skulk and it goes without saying that you die 9/10 times without the medspam. In NS1 you could do this(3:59-4:07), that(9:43-10:08, or this(0:09-0:23). The first one demonstrates how little is required from devs to make this game so much better. "Simply" strafing was the main dodging ability in NS1. In that frag I do extreme subtle body hesitation to left and I manage to fool the skulk to bunnyhop to distance, and that bought me enough time to kill a skulk and lerk without needing a single medpack. That move may seem simple but it required superb game reading and timing.
How many times in NS2 have you seen a marine kill a lerk and a skulk in highest possible level without a medpack? That is not possible because the marine lack movement to buy more shooting time. There is mod called Classic mod for NS2 were strafing is much better. You have much more freedom and speed in strafing which is required to do body hesitations like in that clip. Please Sewlek; copy the strafing from Classic mod. This thing is only win-win situation, it's doesn't hurt new players, but in the other hand it gives veterans one the biggest tools of NS1 to express their creativity.
1: Bring back RFK. 1-2 resources for every kill allows both "carry players" and staggers the lifeform/tech explosions. This means slower pres or lower start amount, but balances toward individual reward and less "explosion".
2: Once Khamm selects upgrade path, give gorges the responsibility to drop it.
- Kham can still drop Whips and larger structures (crags, shift, shade).
- Gorges drop all upgrade chambers (Spurs, Veils, Shells).
- These upgrade structures have a similar, but smaller area of effect than the full size counterparts. This welcomes more forward bases built and maintained by gorges.
- Allow ALL gorge placed structures on walls/roofs/vents, like hydras.
- Alien economy costs will need to be adjusted to compensate for gorge drops.
3: Gorges drop harvesters from pres for less than khamm using tres (similar to increased tres cost for lifeform eggs). This promotes better gorge play.
4: Keep Biomass, but integrate the ability upgrade into it. No need to upgrade Biomass, THEN the ability. Increase the cost, time, or both, and let one intuitive movement make sense to new players. Tunnels allowed on start. Want bile? Upgrade biomass for 25 res, 90 seconds.
5: In the same way Biomass increases hp/armor, allow it to scale DPS with each biomass increment. One hive, 2 biomass Bile is only, say, 60% of the 6 biomass bile. Allow DPS to increase as aliens tech to stop the difficult late game (on pubs).
I know this isn't an end all, but a possibility. It lessens the khamm roles a little, but it also allows the gorges and team overall to be less centric. Heck, the khamm could simply gorge and assist in that capacity, which many good khamms already do.
Comments
You're both wrong "trying the same thing over and over expecting different result." is the definition of insanity.
Although the alien commander is flawed, and more importantly, lessens the game experience for the gorge, I don't think this is what ruined NS2. It is weak now but I believe it can be fixed. Mainly by increasing the alien commanders role in combat while simultaneously increasing the gorges impact on expansion and growth (consequences). In brief, the death of a gorge needs to halt or hinder growth/expansion and the absence of a khamm needs to hinder the aliens in combat.
Now, it is of MY opinion that casual gamers, and UWE's consideration of them, are a big component of this games ruin. Casuals should change their expectations of NS2 (regardless of whether it is true or not). I believe that this game will find its greatest success and triumph by eliminating (or ignoring) the casual components of its game design. A majority of people who played NS1 came to this game expecting the same fast-paced intense fps/rts experience. ASIDE from the horrid performance (which is being improved by leaps and bounds), I think it was the watered down combat that ruined this game. UWE tried to create a bridge between the comp and casual scene, and in essence, turned all the comp (or, as I like to call them, PC!!!!!!) players away. MOST people play an online PC game expecting a challenge. All that was left were the select few players who took the game super seriously and all the extremely casual gamers who did not care AT ALL. This resulted in a HUGE bridge between the average and experience player.
Basically, what I'm saying is the average PC gamer wants a more challenging game. Let's call them the middle class. When the middle class thrives, the upper class (competitive players thrive) and the lower class (casuals) reap from the benefits as well (larger community, MORE AVERAGE players, more stable servers). By catering to the lower class, and serving food from soup kitchens and giving away free clothing, you TURN AWAY the average PC gamer, who wants to work and earn his own things.
So that is my opinion. I am not saying casual gamers shouldn't have a place in UWE. There will always be some casuals around. But I truly believe that this game will find true success (better game, better servers, larger community) by IGNORING the casual ideas for game design. If they strive to make this game as fast and competitive and challenging as possible, IT WILL REBOUND.
PLEASE IRONHORSE, do not delete my post. If I have said anything that is not appropriate just let me know what I did that was against the rules. I am trying to contribute to the future of this game.
P.S Everyone else on these forums gets caught up on pages and pages of worthless, insignificant drivel... i dunno, such as the definition of insanity. How is the definition of insanity and where it came to relevant to this thread or these forums. Those are the posts that should be discouraged, NOT actual posts with constructive insight and a smattering of curse words.
SEE BELOW AND ABOVE
1) Not an Einstein quote. Probably a Rita Mae Brown quote from the 1980's.
2) Pick up a quality dictionary and read the definition of insanity. Insanity has no scientific definition; it's a legal term and a term of every day use for foolishness.
Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is exactly what you do when you are practicing playing a piano, or practicing wall-hopping or exercising.
More importantly i will never edit or delete your post based on it's content.
What I do care about is how you respond to other members of this forum and community.
Calling certain ones "worthless flies" , "cancer" and telling them to "shut their fucking mouths".. is unacceptable and creates a hostile environment to post in - essentially you become a bully in the room, and taint what you yourself consider to be "mature forums".
Also, admins are not here to clean up the mess you create... So if you don't want your posts decimated by snips or deleted entirely, post in a more civilized manner...
Lastly, if you have a problem with what happened you can PM me instead of airing it publicly.
edit: wait, this isn't the thread I'm looking for.
edit: wait, it is, but this just isn't the page I'm looking for.
@Soylent_green
Your first point is irrelevant to my reply. I did not contend that part of the comment I first replied to.
You are incorrect in your second assertion. Most of the time, you do know what to do, but you do not know how to do it. How does one hit a 140mph serve in the box? How does one navigate past four footballers, whilst maintaining the ball? The latter in particular requires much physical ability, and furthermore, much mental ability (you need to be able to predict what the opponents are going to do so that you are one step ahead). You can watch someone all you want and think you know what to do (which you most probably do), but this does not mean you know how to do it.
Though practise requires repetition, it also requires adjustments once we have realised that what we're doing is sub-optimal. In your final paragraph, you seem to admit this point. When we say, "I am going to practise", does anyone interpret this as, "well he's not going to learn anything then"? No - not at all. This is why dictionary definitions often require some nuanced interpretation. And this is the key - nuance. Also, understand that those people saying it looks like you're doing the same thing over and over are the very same people who do not understand what you're doing. To any veteran of whatever it is that you're doing, it will be clear that these variations are very real. If my mother looks over my shoulder and sees myself and Tane playing, even if she gets to see the score, she will simply say that, according to your logic at least, that he is doing the same thing as me. Undoubtedly he does certain things the same as me, such as pressing a button. Moreover he will do certain things better than me, such as aiming. But he will also do things I don't even do. Though these may be considered subtle variations to the layman it is clear just how important they are, and as such, they are different.
Edit: After reading this back I realise how dirty the sentence about myself and Tane now looks.
I'd like to hear what you think is "casual" about NS2.
There are no progress bars. No achievements. No daily challenges. There is nothing for a player who wants to jump in, get some positive feedback, and jump out.
Re: the khamm vs no-khamm debate;
The khamm role is not hard. The only way to screw up is to build whips instead of upgrades and harvesters. If a bad khamm just tries to drop harvesters and upgrades and hives they will do more than enough to win their team the game. These tasks are very low pulse and easy to accomplish if the khamm has a basic understanding of the gameplay.
The barrier to entry in NS2 is in general high. The ns1 crowd doesn't see it, to us its simpler than last time around. 250 should have held off a week so a new set of tooltips, tutorial vids, and the wiki could be updated. TNS2 is increasingly a game of secret sauces, this is why it is a niche game.
I'd also approve seeing a coach system for commanders added with some conditional tips. Helpful notions such as:
-Hi, its 4:00 minutes in to the game and you haven't done anything... are you trying to lose?
-You should try to have at least 3 safe RT's at all times, have some marines/aliens secure [insert nearby room here].
-You have too much tres, research [insert upgrade here] at [insert structure here].
*Game Starts for marine comm* - You have 6:00 minutes to prepare for the fadepocalypse.
Will this alone make good comms? No. Will it give comms who don't have a field commander to help them do better? Sure. Does it definitely need a checkbox to disable in the options menu? YES.
Should gorges be able to drop shifts/shades/crags when the appropriate hive is built? Yes!!!! Even better would be a unique gorge only structure associated with each. If you gorge all game and backline till late you'll be sitting on res you'll never spend.
I think this should be highlighted some more. In nearly all circumstances, there is no reason not to 5 skulk crush one side at the beginning of the game. It doesn't cost anything in terms of eggs or slow down alien rt expansion at all due to the alien commander.
This is the reason I don't play the game right now, it's fucking broken and ruins the game for me, having to watch one side inevitably get crushed.
:DDD best
1 thing that woukd be neat is that when u kill a player the lose say 0.30rez and the player that kills him gains his 0.30 rez or even give it to the team in Tres there for players have more reason to stay alive.
Actually with v250 I think NS2 is tactically and teamwork wise as good as NS1. It's different and there are some problems like the fade explosion in mid game. It forces mid and late game to be group vs. group play most of the time, which don't give you much variation. But in overall, your tactical choices are even with NS1. During EU Open 2013 I actually enjoyed doing tacs. I freaking wrote 10 pages tactical notebook to my teammates... and that was only the marine play.
A problem is that teamwork and tactics have replaced too much individual skill. I always thought that NS1 had perfect mix of skill, teamwork and tactics. What is lacking is the higher personal skill curve which didn't have limits in NS1. You could always get better. Not going to write an essay about it, but the biggest problem lies in the marine movement. If a good skulk gets close to marine it's only aim+medspam vs. skulk and it goes without saying that you die 9/10 times without the medspam. In NS1 you could do this(3:59-4:07), that(9:43-10:08, or this(0:09-0:23). The first one demonstrates how little is required from devs to make this game so much better. "Simply" strafing was the main dodging ability in NS1. In that frag I do extreme subtle body hesitation to left and I manage to fool the skulk to bunnyhop to distance, and that bought me enough time to kill a skulk and lerk without needing a single medpack. That move may seem simple but it required superb game reading and timing.
How many times in NS2 have you seen a marine kill a lerk and a skulk in highest possible level without a medpack? That is not possible because the marine lack movement to buy more shooting time. There is mod called Classic mod for NS2 were strafing is much better. You have much more freedom and speed in strafing which is required to do body hesitations like in that clip. Please Sewlek; copy the strafing from Classic mod. This thing is only win-win situation, it's doesn't hurt new players, but in the other hand it gives veterans one the biggest tools of NS1 to express their creativity.
1: Bring back RFK. 1-2 resources for every kill allows both "carry players" and staggers the lifeform/tech explosions. This means slower pres or lower start amount, but balances toward individual reward and less "explosion".
2: Once Khamm selects upgrade path, give gorges the responsibility to drop it.
- Kham can still drop Whips and larger structures (crags, shift, shade).
- Gorges drop all upgrade chambers (Spurs, Veils, Shells).
- These upgrade structures have a similar, but smaller area of effect than the full size counterparts. This welcomes more forward bases built and maintained by gorges.
- Allow ALL gorge placed structures on walls/roofs/vents, like hydras.
- Alien economy costs will need to be adjusted to compensate for gorge drops.
3: Gorges drop harvesters from pres for less than khamm using tres (similar to increased tres cost for lifeform eggs). This promotes better gorge play.
4: Keep Biomass, but integrate the ability upgrade into it. No need to upgrade Biomass, THEN the ability. Increase the cost, time, or both, and let one intuitive movement make sense to new players. Tunnels allowed on start. Want bile? Upgrade biomass for 25 res, 90 seconds.
5: In the same way Biomass increases hp/armor, allow it to scale DPS with each biomass increment. One hive, 2 biomass Bile is only, say, 60% of the 6 biomass bile. Allow DPS to increase as aliens tech to stop the difficult late game (on pubs).
I know this isn't an end all, but a possibility. It lessens the khamm roles a little, but it also allows the gorges and team overall to be less centric. Heck, the khamm could simply gorge and assist in that capacity, which many good khamms already do.