FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Well, as of last night's build the speed cap was reduced to 9.5 for skulks. Significance here being you're "expanded wallumping" or whatever you want to say at full speed after 1 raised wall jump.
So yea the bunnyhop seems less important to hold speed
while it may not be pure bunnyhopping - its quite obviously derived from and conserves alot of the same principles of bunnyhopping - with a twist of course. eitherway, trying to address the barriers to new player induction such systems have typically had with PR/spin is pointless.
*note im not trying to argue for or against the system etc
just played my first match in the BT cup and it was the most fun I've had playing NS2 in a long time. I think this honestly might bring some life back into the game.
After having sunk some time into the most recent BT, I thought i'd post here a couple thoughts (as this is the place for that!). I thoroughly expect nothing but disrespect and detractors, hostility and flaming, but that's okay. I'd request to keep responses (if there are any) at least respectful, as I make a very real effort to be respectful and tactful to everyone else. My opinions are my own, and I am not the only competitive "Div 1" player/shooter who feels this way, although if you read, I'm actually very positive about the BT. Thanks.
General-
I like that more things can be used. I like that unused things have now become used. This is a good overall, directional change. I cannot stand the changes to strafe-movement. (W+A, W+D, etc). Strafe-jumping forward should not move me 80% forward, 10% to the left. It should move me 50% left, 50% forward, and if that's an issue, just reduce it to 30% left, 30% forward. I'd understand slowing or 'nerfing' of it (debates notwithstanding) but making it an awkward, bizarre propellant is just disconcerting and a big turn off. It's the same on all lifeforms. The general expansions of the tech trees (or rather, allowing you to take other paths without sacrificing your chances of winning) are really great. Truly. Big praise on that front.
My Big (And obvious) complaint (from a 'Competitive' perspective)-
I've been hearing for a good while from some other decent players/shooters that the big need for change was the lack of 'Skill based movement'. This I agree with; i've been around through much of the beta, seen the various incarnations of wacky wall-jumps and speed-gains, seen the peanut-butter skulks, and had ample experience in plenty of games both comp and non-comp prior to ns2. BT was supposed to bring this "Skill based movement"; but as I've been shown (and was previously unaware of), the game implements a variety of 'bunny-hopping', and then also implements a system to queue your jumping automatically. So we add in a skill-based, timing check to be maintained to keep your momentum up... and then we brutally eviscerate any meaning by allowing players a full-jump time window to achieve 100% maximum effect of this 'skill'. How is this skill based, in any way? It is dishonest and unintuitive; either give players the 100% maximum benefit automatically, or require a millisecond-tight timing check and mouse-movement sync check to gain an advantage. Don't allow any and everyone to benefit to the maximum only if they understand a subtly created crutch mechanic and then claim it as some great 'Skill based' jumping. It isn't skill if it requires no skill.
Specifics:
Skulk -
Decent. An interesting re-work. Not as bad as it used to be; far less 'ice-skating' than it was several builds back. Changes the flavor of the lifeform, still viable, although I find the ability to change upgrades on-the-fly for free is a little exploitative or broken, as you can rock carapace, hide in a vent and pop out some regen, rinse repeat (as i've seen plenty of players do in "Div 1" (3 teams in the US!) games).
Fade -
Not sure why these changes are being so praised. Soaked about 15 hours into the BT fade, and overall, the skill ceiling has been lowered pretty tremendously. It's just a nerfed version of your ns1 fade now. I don't think fade's been nerfed; nor is it unplayable, or 'terrible' or anything else the detractors have claimed. I simply acknowledge the skill ceiling has been made much lower, as now it's just a blink-focused fade with zero requirement of measuring your steps or anything besides a blink-and-swipe-frenzy with the occasional evasive sstep thrown in... a-la ns1. NS2' Shadowstep had a lot more intricacy than most "fade players" realized, and had a decent ceiling if you chose to embrace it without bogging yourself down in the arguments that you had to play it like ns1.
Lerk -
I'm not a lerk player, whatsoever, but playing against them in several scrims and a lot of pubs, I've got to say, I like the overall changes. A little more squishy (as per bullet size, bullet spread, overall nerfing/cheaping up), and still incredibly useful. I think the changes here bring some more variety into early game alongside all those tech tree changes I mentioned earlier.
Marine -
Right now the SG is an issue, but I expect that'll change (as so much changes in the BT so quickly). Otherwise, the changes are decent. I've noticed moving backwards is faster than moving forward for some players, but not others. Probably just a bug. Again, will be fixed, I have no doubts. Overall, tech changes are good. Welder changes are good, encourages teamwork, solid idea and good structuring of it. Unfortunately, I think these changes will hurt the pub game more than help it.
Onos -
It's still an Onos. Nothing much to say here.
Overall/In Summation:
The BT has potential. I really don't dislike it, but It feels utterly unnecessary, the clamoring and "rampant requirement of vast changes" party aside. I do, however, believe it will assassinate any sense of pub community this game has. The few people I know who are just pubbers aren't even aware of the upcoming changes, and will likely quit entirely when they have to sink another 50 hours into the game to learn it ground-up *again*.
What I think the community loves about the BT is the responsiveness. The sweeping, willingness to address the balance and work with the issues. This 'method' is the right method, and I think if it had been embraced from the onset of the game's early beta cycle, it would have resulted in a much better reality for our community... but I think right now, everyone's simply in love with something because it's 'different'. The BT is just as "low" of a "Skill ceiling" as the original; and in several months, it will be decried by the same people decrying the original game as having the same flaws; the same 'stale gameplay, bad balance, and no skill'.
All props and respect to Sewlek. Good work, really. Just keep that pace up, and keep moving in a forward direction, i suppose...
hanges the flavor of the lifeform, still viable, although I find the ability to change upgrades on-the-fly for free is a little exploitative or broken, as you can rock carapace, hide in a vent and pop out some regen, rinse repeat (as i've seen plenty of players do in "Div 1" (3 teams in the US!) games).
Just to clarify, I believe this only applies to skulk. Higher lifeforms require another 5 Pres every time you want to switch. I have never actually tried it though so I am not 100% positive.
Also it takes forever to upgrade at 3 chambers so once you've changed it...waited for regen...changed back, you probably were better off running back to the hive.
hanges the flavor of the lifeform, still viable, although I find the ability to change upgrades on-the-fly for free is a little exploitative or broken, as you can rock carapace, hide in a vent and pop out some regen, rinse repeat (as i've seen plenty of players do in "Div 1" (3 teams in the US!) games).
Just to clarify, I believe this only applies to skulk. Higher lifeforms require another 5 Pres every time you want to switch. I have never actually tried it though so I am not 100% positive.
Upgrade prices vary depending on the lifeform. It's 3 for the lerk I think. 5 is fade.
Upgrade prices vary depending on the lifeform. It's 3 for the lerk I think. 5 is fade.
This is accurate (at least the fade is).
*Shrug* I've seen quite a bit of the skulk cara-regen-cara shenanigans. Not really a major talking point of my post, but yeah. Good to know it's alot slower @ max.
Upgrade prices vary depending on the lifeform. It's 3 for the lerk I think. 5 is fade.
This is accurate (at least the fade is).
*Shrug* I've seen quite a bit of the skulk cara-regen-cara shenanigans. Not really a major talking point of my post, but yeah. Good to know it's alot slower @ max.
I've done a little bit of this, but I do it in reverse. I default to regen on my skulk and I'll hop in a vent and go carapace if I'm trying to spearhead an attack or take on 2 marines by myself.. but if you're already on carapace and plan on leaving it that way, you're better off just running back to the nearest gorge/hive.
you're making an big deal out of something not big. it's the same game with a few new/altered mechanics. you don't have to re learn much of anything imo, skulk movement is close to the same as it was btw
The new reliance on welding is an added weight that the gameplay currently does not need, given NS2's player expansion rate.
Other than that no real big issues imo so far.
I'm glad to see someone else who is more pessimistic about the balance mod. If all of the changes it lists were implemented I wouldn't play anymore. I find many of those changes to be fairly amateur and adding unnecessary complications to the game. I think more strategic options is great, but Ns2 is pretty good balance wise and so much of the proposed changes miss the mark.
If all of the changes it lists were implemented I wouldn't play anymore.
See ya, then.
Is it confirmed anywhere that all of the changes are going into the game?
From my understanding the list isn't kept up to 10000000% accuracy. My suggestion would be to play on a BT server. From my understanding that is the damn close to what 250 will be.
If all of the changes it lists were implemented I wouldn't play anymore.
See ya, then.
Is it confirmed anywhere that all of the changes are going into the game?
Has it been confirmed that 100% of the changes will make it in? No. But UWE has been pretty clear that the vast majority, if not all of them, will be going live.
Either way, we'll know by the end of the day today what made it in and what didn't.
Man, to be honest I really didn't like that NS2 was changing after spending like 500 hours getting good at the game (400 of which was pure running around/dying), I thought the movement was weird and stupid, etc. But after playing BT for about 40 hours, I have to say it is great. Skulk are amazingly fun now (as they should be being that pub and comp players will be one for 30-80% of the game). Lerks are much more agile, but squishy, and with the first upgrade being umbra it seems to encourage them for a more defensive and room denial play-style (forcing pubies to play lerk like comp players; ingenious). Fade has a much lower skill ceiling, insanely lower in terms of movement, but the upside to this is it makes you consider room positioning more when facing marines, since it is squishier now. Onos.... is an onos. Marines, great changes, but W+S jump is stupid now; doesn't matter too much because awkward camera angles + A/D jumps will usually fool 95% of skulks. Commanding is now fun. Great job.
Oh and I'm pretty sure there is a post about build 450 which includes many (the list is a bit outdated) that are being implemented sometime today.
Comments
So yea the bunnyhop seems less important to hold speed
*note im not trying to argue for or against the system etc
Anyway, I am anxious for BT to go live. Playing vanilla skulk/fade now makes my head hurt.
General-
I like that more things can be used. I like that unused things have now become used. This is a good overall, directional change. I cannot stand the changes to strafe-movement. (W+A, W+D, etc). Strafe-jumping forward should not move me 80% forward, 10% to the left. It should move me 50% left, 50% forward, and if that's an issue, just reduce it to 30% left, 30% forward. I'd understand slowing or 'nerfing' of it (debates notwithstanding) but making it an awkward, bizarre propellant is just disconcerting and a big turn off. It's the same on all lifeforms. The general expansions of the tech trees (or rather, allowing you to take other paths without sacrificing your chances of winning) are really great. Truly. Big praise on that front.
My Big (And obvious) complaint (from a 'Competitive' perspective)-
I've been hearing for a good while from some other decent players/shooters that the big need for change was the lack of 'Skill based movement'. This I agree with; i've been around through much of the beta, seen the various incarnations of wacky wall-jumps and speed-gains, seen the peanut-butter skulks, and had ample experience in plenty of games both comp and non-comp prior to ns2. BT was supposed to bring this "Skill based movement"; but as I've been shown (and was previously unaware of), the game implements a variety of 'bunny-hopping', and then also implements a system to queue your jumping automatically. So we add in a skill-based, timing check to be maintained to keep your momentum up... and then we brutally eviscerate any meaning by allowing players a full-jump time window to achieve 100% maximum effect of this 'skill'. How is this skill based, in any way? It is dishonest and unintuitive; either give players the 100% maximum benefit automatically, or require a millisecond-tight timing check and mouse-movement sync check to gain an advantage. Don't allow any and everyone to benefit to the maximum only if they understand a subtly created crutch mechanic and then claim it as some great 'Skill based' jumping. It isn't skill if it requires no skill.
Specifics:
Skulk -
Decent. An interesting re-work. Not as bad as it used to be; far less 'ice-skating' than it was several builds back. Changes the flavor of the lifeform, still viable, although I find the ability to change upgrades on-the-fly for free is a little exploitative or broken, as you can rock carapace, hide in a vent and pop out some regen, rinse repeat (as i've seen plenty of players do in "Div 1" (3 teams in the US!) games).
Fade -
Not sure why these changes are being so praised. Soaked about 15 hours into the BT fade, and overall, the skill ceiling has been lowered pretty tremendously. It's just a nerfed version of your ns1 fade now. I don't think fade's been nerfed; nor is it unplayable, or 'terrible' or anything else the detractors have claimed. I simply acknowledge the skill ceiling has been made much lower, as now it's just a blink-focused fade with zero requirement of measuring your steps or anything besides a blink-and-swipe-frenzy with the occasional evasive sstep thrown in... a-la ns1. NS2' Shadowstep had a lot more intricacy than most "fade players" realized, and had a decent ceiling if you chose to embrace it without bogging yourself down in the arguments that you had to play it like ns1.
Lerk -
I'm not a lerk player, whatsoever, but playing against them in several scrims and a lot of pubs, I've got to say, I like the overall changes. A little more squishy (as per bullet size, bullet spread, overall nerfing/cheaping up), and still incredibly useful. I think the changes here bring some more variety into early game alongside all those tech tree changes I mentioned earlier.
Marine -
Right now the SG is an issue, but I expect that'll change (as so much changes in the BT so quickly). Otherwise, the changes are decent. I've noticed moving backwards is faster than moving forward for some players, but not others. Probably just a bug. Again, will be fixed, I have no doubts. Overall, tech changes are good. Welder changes are good, encourages teamwork, solid idea and good structuring of it. Unfortunately, I think these changes will hurt the pub game more than help it.
Onos -
It's still an Onos. Nothing much to say here.
Overall/In Summation:
The BT has potential. I really don't dislike it, but It feels utterly unnecessary, the clamoring and "rampant requirement of vast changes" party aside. I do, however, believe it will assassinate any sense of pub community this game has. The few people I know who are just pubbers aren't even aware of the upcoming changes, and will likely quit entirely when they have to sink another 50 hours into the game to learn it ground-up *again*.
What I think the community loves about the BT is the responsiveness. The sweeping, willingness to address the balance and work with the issues. This 'method' is the right method, and I think if it had been embraced from the onset of the game's early beta cycle, it would have resulted in a much better reality for our community... but I think right now, everyone's simply in love with something because it's 'different'. The BT is just as "low" of a "Skill ceiling" as the original; and in several months, it will be decried by the same people decrying the original game as having the same flaws; the same 'stale gameplay, bad balance, and no skill'.
All props and respect to Sewlek. Good work, really. Just keep that pace up, and keep moving in a forward direction, i suppose...
-Colt.
Just to clarify, I believe this only applies to skulk. Higher lifeforms require another 5 Pres every time you want to switch. I have never actually tried it though so I am not 100% positive.
Upgrade prices vary depending on the lifeform. It's 3 for the lerk I think. 5 is fade.
This is accurate (at least the fade is).
*Shrug* I've seen quite a bit of the skulk cara-regen-cara shenanigans. Not really a major talking point of my post, but yeah. Good to know it's alot slower @ max.
I've done a little bit of this, but I do it in reverse. I default to regen on my skulk and I'll hop in a vent and go carapace if I'm trying to spearhead an attack or take on 2 marines by myself.. but if you're already on carapace and plan on leaving it that way, you're better off just running back to the nearest gorge/hive.
Other than that no real big issues imo so far.
See ya, then.
Is it confirmed anywhere that all of the changes are going into the game?
From my understanding the list isn't kept up to 10000000% accuracy. My suggestion would be to play on a BT server. From my understanding that is the damn close to what 250 will be.
Has it been confirmed that 100% of the changes will make it in? No. But UWE has been pretty clear that the vast majority, if not all of them, will be going live.
Either way, we'll know by the end of the day today what made it in and what didn't.
Oh and I'm pretty sure there is a post about build 450 which includes many (the list is a bit outdated) that are being implemented sometime today.