KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I feel the core problem is that courtyard is too accessible. There's a lot of areas that are essentially dead paths because they take too long to run through, meaning strategically the map is not very interesting. You can't send pushes through depatures or cafeteria because they just take too long to get anywhere important. So what you end up with is a micro-map where all the important fighting happens in the top left corner of the map, and 1v1s for nodes happen everywhere else.
Except locker alien spawn. That shit is so op its not even funny. Being right next to courtyard means you have immediate access to anywhere to bite rts or flank pushes or whatever you want.
I'm guessing with a smaller CC set the map would be more small team focused, may I ask what happened to Landing Pad res? I'm sure it was as much of a prick to defend as East.
Another massive issue is Terminal is not a viable spawn/expansion for Aliens in any manner. While removing Cafe will make it easier to deal with, it would be nice for at least pub play if all Tech points were possible to hold.
Terminal will never be a viable alien spawn, it was never designed with aliens in mind. Some big issues were addressed in the upcoming changes (stability ARCing, the fact that maint/stab RTs were so easy to harass for marines, locker spawn for marines gone), give them a chance, I think they will improve overall gameplay on the map by quite a margin.
Expand to east wing and cafe. Remember when Scrajm did his post on good maps you need two have two expansive rts that aren't to difficult to hold - this is ideal.
Contrast this with the generator spawn. If you spawn in generator both of your first two RTs require that you expand TOWARDS the marines (as in Mineshaft and Descent) as opposed to in parallel with a slight incline towards marines (such as summit and tram). I feel like Veil might buck this trend but you also have to consider that cargo fits the "Scrajm Rule" whilst nano is an anomaly because you end up getting two RTs - making it arguably worth it).
Looks legit. Even if aliens get gen, you can just gorge up maintenance and it won't be much worse than reactor core on summit imo. Hopefully it's fixed spawn, or at least fixed spawn for marines. I'd hate to see aliens spawn in terminal, it looks like it'd be super easy to arc from east wing.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
The cafe-terminal route still seems problematic in that going to cafe is running away from the action and the room seems generally redundant.. Since you're going for 4 tp again is there possibility of turning landing pad into the marine start as was originally intended? Use the last stand version of landing ?
I miss Cafeteria as a tech point. So much great work in the map reduced to a side rt room.
What if terminal came off of landing pad from the east, a small room connected landing to courtyard (with possible RT), courtyard was moved down a little, and terminal has exit north toward departures/east?
then you could keep 5 tech points, and make the spread (especially travel time to/through courtyard) a little more evened.
KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
it's like, the hub and spoke maps have to be very uniform or they aren't really viable. the hub limits the amount of creative things you can do because it'll always control the movement around the map.
iounno, i almost rather limit spawns and then work around it because at leas you can get a map that'll be different from summit/descent.
wouldn't moving bar directly over cafe seem better?? right now it looks like a broken branch sticking off of a tree just floating there on the map. you could even still have it wrap around to get to locker rooms while connecting it to the hallway going back into terminal. of course that might make it to close on that side so you could always drop cafeteria down and make it even with landing pad.
This will be the last major revision to the map. Need to spend more time on biodome. But if cafe being without its tech turns out to be a major hindrance I'll add it back.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
it really shouldn't be.
If marines start in terminal for example, and aliens in departures or generator.
The smart marine team will bum rush to locker, and set up a second base, with 1 marine pciking up the cafe/bar rts.
holding cafe is a death sentence, having it as a tech point means you're desperate, or you've already lost.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Looks easy as marine comm spawning in locker. First pg in east wing, aliens are threatened on departures and east is terrible to attack (easy rine defense with those stairs). Already awkard feeling for alien comm.
If i now have constantly marines pushing from courtyard towards those 2 close harvesters, i have:
1) route for rt biting locked down, 5 secure rts
2) easy time keeping aliens down to 2-3 rts permanently
I could even drop my 2nd gate there to ensure this goes as planned
I go to late tech, ignore alien eco and never worry about 5th tech point.
Maybe I'd be proven wrong but that's at least what comes to mind when glancing on that minimap
Marines will no longer spawn in locker, always terminal. Aliens will spawn in any of the top 3 location.
I don't think courtyard is any easy phasegate by any stretch of the imagination, similar to hub I think you'll have to protect it often and use it well if you want any effectiveness out of it. (the architecture in courtyard is also very different)
The collision for the escalators in the south of Departures appear to be problematic. I've seen a few Macs/Drifters stuck in them and they're quite bumpy to walk up.
I'm really excited to see how the new north of this map plays. cafe and landing pad will probably be really awkward now though, two huge rooms with just 1 RT between the both of them that are pretty removed from the rest of the map.
Anyone have the link the version of docking that has the landing pad spawn for marines and uses the landing pad from last stand? I played it on one of the monash servers awhile back and wanted to try it again in a pug or something.
Comments
Or we could do it like this.
My problem with locker spawn is that hitting stability and maintenance is WAY too easy. If you have locker spawn, may aliens spawn in terminal?
Except locker alien spawn. That shit is so op its not even funny. Being right next to courtyard means you have immediate access to anywhere to bite rts or flank pushes or whatever you want.
Expand to east wing and cafe. Remember when Scrajm did his post on good maps you need two have two expansive rts that aren't to difficult to hold - this is ideal.
Contrast this with the generator spawn. If you spawn in generator both of your first two RTs require that you expand TOWARDS the marines (as in Mineshaft and Descent) as opposed to in parallel with a slight incline towards marines (such as summit and tram). I feel like Veil might buck this trend but you also have to consider that cargo fits the "Scrajm Rule" whilst nano is an anomaly because you end up getting two RTs - making it arguably worth it).
What if Cafe was the tech point and locker rooms would just be a rt room.
Rest of the changes are good.
What if terminal came off of landing pad from the east, a small room connected landing to courtyard (with possible RT), courtyard was moved down a little, and terminal has exit north toward departures/east?
then you could keep 5 tech points, and make the spread (especially travel time to/through courtyard) a little more evened.
iounno, i almost rather limit spawns and then work around it because at leas you can get a map that'll be different from summit/descent.
that's just my 2 random cents tho.
If marines start in terminal for example, and aliens in departures or generator.
The smart marine team will bum rush to locker, and set up a second base, with 1 marine pciking up the cafe/bar rts.
holding cafe is a death sentence, having it as a tech point means you're desperate, or you've already lost.
If i now have constantly marines pushing from courtyard towards those 2 close harvesters, i have:
1) route for rt biting locked down, 5 secure rts
2) easy time keeping aliens down to 2-3 rts permanently
I could even drop my 2nd gate there to ensure this goes as planned
I go to late tech, ignore alien eco and never worry about 5th tech point.
Maybe I'd be proven wrong but that's at least what comes to mind when glancing on that minimap
I don't think courtyard is any easy phasegate by any stretch of the imagination, similar to hub I think you'll have to protect it often and use it well if you want any effectiveness out of it. (the architecture in courtyard is also very different)
It got released in the beta build so if you want to at least walk around it opt into the beta and create a listen server or join one playing docking.
fuck yeah thx man