1 shotgun can be picked up when dead...same does not go for lerk, gorge, fade or onos.
So to argue res investment is equally ridiculous as when you die...your team does not necesarily lose the res invested as is the case on the alien team.
New players who play marines have more fun than new players who play aliens...because even when your losing as a marine your still having fun killing aliens (that you can 1 shot lifeforms just makes it easier to enjoy playing marine...and more infuriating to play aliens)
Increasing the viability of GL, FT and exo's does nothing to help address the underlying issue of the SG being OP'd.
Marines already have enough weapons that instagib a lot of (most) alien life forms, increasing the "viability" of FT, GL and EXO's does nothing to address the underlying issues.
The solution to the underslung GL was not to make the FT or SG better...but to nerf the LMG/underslung combo be removing it.
The SG has almost 0 down side....the only downside it has is if you have no pistol ammo and its your only weapon.
It was funny during the beta on aussie servers we saw SG and JP rushes all the time (well once underslung GL's got removed)...even after arcs, exo's and all the other bells and whistles came into the game...if you wanted to win...rush JP's and SG's....rush hive/s and win.
If we want to see this game flourish and new players hang around...then we need to sort out the issues with 1 side having multiple instagibs and the other side having an enemy that gets increasingly harder to kill.
Thats not asymmetry..its bad game design.
As I said in my earlier post...its not about win loss ratios...but about both sides having fun and feeling like they can win (regardless of whether or not they can).
Aliens often feel they are losing...right up to the point marines concede.
From the alien team perspective even when your winning you feel like your losing...simply because you are dieing more often and easily than your enemy.
Before concede votes came in...we saw many more turtles as a result of this disparity in levels of "fun".
Interesting. Apparently some of you play on a server where on one hand the marines attempt to play the ideal game, never lose their weapons in places where they cannot get them back, make consecutive full damage hits using their shotguns and have superoir awareness to the point where attacking from blind spots is extremely hard. On the other hand the aliens are mostly forced to play Skulk for whatever reason, are unable to make even the most basic evasive maneuvers and barely manage to win by using their attrition.
The servers I play on can probably be split in two departments: Marines and aliens are derpy, or marines and aliens know what they are doing. On the former servers newbie Skulks run at marines in a straight line while being shot at a lot. On the other hand even the the first shot with a shotgun is usually only a glancing hit. If the Skulks have leap the first shot misses outright. Reason: Aim is a skill, too.
If it is the latter kind of server marines hit a Skulk running straight at them with one hit, even multiple Skulks doing that. On the other hand there are barely any aliens doing that on those servers, they usually use walls an ceiling to get close unnoticed, and zigzag around the marine to keep out of direct fire. Reason: Those guys have learned how to evade being hit.
Both cases are not really close to the "I'm being killed without being able to do anything about it" some people here keep describing.
And for the record: Alien wins are often way more epic than marine ones.
Interesting. Apparently some of you play on a server where on one hand the marines attempt to play the ideal game, never lose their weapons in places where they cannot get them back, make consecutive full damage hits using their shotguns and have superoir awareness to the point where attacking from blind spots is extremely hard. On the other hand the aliens are mostly forced to play Skulk for whatever reason, are unable to make even the most basic evasive maneuvers and barely manage to win by using their attrition.
The servers I play on can probably be split in two departments: Marines and aliens are derpy, or marines and aliens know what they are doing. On the former servers newbie Skulks run at marines in a straight line while being shot at a lot. On the other hand even the the first shot with a shotgun is usually only a glancing hit. If the Skulks have leap the first shot misses outright. Reason: Aim is a skill, too.
If it is the latter kind of server marines hit a Skulk running straight at them with one hit, even multiple Skulks doing that. On the other hand there are barely any aliens doing that on those servers, they usually use walls an ceiling to get close unnoticed, and zigzag around the marine to keep out of direct fire. Reason: Those guys have learned how to evade being hit.
Both cases are not really close to the "I'm being killed without being able to do anything about it" some people here keep describing.
And for the record: Alien wins are often way more epic than marine ones.
I just think certain people play the game with the wrong mindset and maybe a more death match style game might be their thing, I think the score doesn't help people's perception about K/D either, remove I say.... just leave score and economic damage they cause to really push home the RTS stats, the game is sometimes too FPS focused.
But back to the shotgun, powerful yes.... but not as bad as people are saying, also it's hard to make people even buy the things because people keep losing them, when I command, I have to moan for ages for people to buy them, because most are waiting for Jetpacks or Exos.
Here's a point, someone who comes on the server I go on, he only uses the rifle except for when fades pop out, and he's K/D(as it seems people care for this) is about 25/5 quite consistently.
I think here people need to give ideas how to attack a shot-gunner, I like to wait for more buddies then attack, or if they on they own, then I'll try to get the perfect attack, but this only occurs for me because I wish to keep biting on the RT, I barely set out just to push up my K/D.
But sometimes you just have to retreat.
You know another funny thing, wait until most are bunch up, then half the time they'll be shooting each-other instead of the life-form.
I guess it comes down to adaptation instead of base skill, which I think is the alien's strong point, not to be simple and methodical, like the marines, but some people like that aspect.
Though nothing is more powerful in the this game then a organised alien attack, Lerks crop dusting, onus tanking, fades snipping and skulks running interference.
If a skulk kills a shotgunner he should be able to swallow the shotgun, thus replacing his Parasite ability with it.
I love the shotgun, but I do feel its choke is just a little too tight, I can easily get several 50-70 damage shots on a target from across a decent sized room.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the exo loses.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the onos loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the fade loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the lerk loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the shotgun loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the skulk loses.
The last one should have required a lot less imagination.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the exo loses.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the onos loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the fade loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the lerk loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the shotgun loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the skulk loses.
The last one should have required a lot less imagination.
And what context is this in? These points in my mind have no real relevance to the game, the fights in this game should have a meaning to them, unlike pure FPS games where the fight is the meaning.
I believe you only focus on the FPS side, by reading the thread so far.
Also one Vs one should always be made hard, I thought lately which could help the idea of making it more teams based is lowering the health of everything in the game, making teamwork and smart play even more crucial, also making things which are powerful less of the issue.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the exo loses.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the onos loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the fade loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the lerk loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the shotgun loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the skulk loses.
The last one should have required a lot less imagination.
And what context is this in? These points in my mind have no real relevance to the game, the fights in this game should have a meaning to them, unlike pure FPS games where the fight is the meaning.
I believe you only focus on the FPS side, by reading the thread so far.
Also one Vs one should always be made hard, I thought lately which could help the idea of making it more teams based is lowering the health of everything in the game, making teamwork and smart play even more crucial, also making things which are powerful less of the issue.
Ok then, imagine the following scenario then.
You just played the finest game of NS ever witnessed by mortal eyes. The strategic depth and cunning used by both teams was astounding and inhuman, but eventually your team won out. However, due to a series of unfortunate circumstances, you spend a very large amount of the round respawning. In fact, 50% of your round was spend respawning, amounting to almost 10 minutes spent in respawn. However, you take solace in the fact that your deaths were meaningful and helped your team win.
Do you think that you personally would have enjoyed this round?
1 shotgun can be picked up when dead...same does not go for lerk, gorge, fade or onos.
So to argue res investment is equally ridiculous as when you die...your team does not necesarily lose the res invested as is the case on the alien team.
Which is why it's important as aliens to:
a) secure the area so the shotgun cannot be recovered
b) use gorge bilebomb to destroy the shotgun
c) use gorge spit to move the shotgun into a safer place/out of reach for marines
or
d) use the shotgun as the ambush point to kill incoming marines trying to recap it.
What people seem to forget is that aliens often have the choice of when and where to engage marines, not so much vice versa. I see so many aliens hear or see marines and they just HAVE to engage ASAP. OMG marines are in ventilation, GOT TO TAKE THEM OUT... (or could set up the ambush in pipe junction while a teammate supports from behind them via crossroads? or maybe redivert through crossroads to hit sub extractor to drag them back?). If the marines are taking our your harvester somewhere and you weren't able to set the ambush up, try waiting a few seconds longer for reinforcements so you can go in with multiple aliens at once. Even if you lose the harvester, the trade might be worth it in pres loss for marines with shotties, together with the loss of map control they suffer through losing the engagement.
I suppose the railgun and GL should be removed from the game as well, as they can 1-shot skulks.
It seems to me that your argument is simple: you don't like 1-shot weapons. That is rather unfortunate, given how many games use OHK weapons...
1 shotgun can be picked up when dead...same does not go for lerk, gorge, fade or onos.
So to argue res investment is equally ridiculous as when you die...your team does not necesarily lose the res invested as is the case on the alien team.
Which is why it's important as aliens to:
a) secure the area so the shotgun cannot be recovered
b) use gorge bilebomb to destroy the shotgun
c) use gorge spit to move the shotgun into a safer place/out of reach for marines
or
d) use the shotgun as the ambush point to kill incoming marines trying to recap it.
So to recap
Marines must: shoot at aliens, jump away from them, sprint around corners, do backflips while throwing hatchets at flying fades and lerks and wrestle with huge oni in order to take the upgrade away.
Aliens must: camp the room or spit/bile bomb on the floor.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the exo loses.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the onos loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the fade loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the lerk loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the shotgun loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the skulk loses.
The last one should have required a lot less imagination.
And what context is this in? These points in my mind have no real relevance to the game, the fights in this game should have a meaning to them, unlike pure FPS games where the fight is the meaning.
I believe you only focus on the FPS side, by reading the thread so far.
Also one Vs one should always be made hard, I thought lately which could help the idea of making it more teams based is lowering the health of everything in the game, making teamwork and smart play even more crucial, also making things which are powerful less of the issue.
Ok then, imagine the following scenario then.
You just played the finest game of NS ever witnessed by mortal eyes. The strategic depth and cunning used by both teams was astounding and inhuman, but eventually your team won out. However, due to a series of unfortunate circumstances, you spend a very large amount of the round respawning. In fact, 50% of your round was spend respawning, amounting to almost 10 minutes spent in respawn. However, you take solace in the fact that your deaths were meaningful and helped your team win.
Do you think that you personally would have enjoyed this round?
I do that most of the time as a Skulk, only when I'm a higher life-form is where surviving has meaning, the only time a skulk should be careful as-well as a early marine, is in the early game where you don't won't to waste respawns, but it's a different mindset, maybe the game isn't for you, this game shouldn't be played on purely FPS-Fun based mindset(new phases everyone), but as I said I would like a more RTS stat screen then a FPS one, it saddened me when someone at the end of the round, someone goes look at my awesome K/D, but thankfully that's rarely the case.
Every time I command I give MVPs not to the person who has the best K/D but who did the most economic damage, this play style would even more encourage if they remove the scores for kills, or at-least make one for kills.
But you're going to ask was that fun, well yea, but I find challenge fun, but some people don't, simple as that!
But you're going to ask was that fun, well yea, but I find challenge fun, but some people don't, simple as that!
Incorrect. You will find that fun drops off as challenge increases to infinity. The idea that "herp derp I find a challenge fun" is what people like to think about themselves. It unfortunately just isn't true though.
But you're going to ask was that fun, well yea, but I find challenge fun, but some people don't, simple as that!
Incorrect. You will find that fun drops off as challenge increases to infinity. The idea that "herp derp I find a challenge fun" is what people like to think about themselves. It unfortunately just isn't true though.
Sweet, I'm getting lessons about myself, by someone else. I'm sorry, but I am not you, you find hard challenge boring, oh well who cares..... there's a reason why many games have very hard difficulties, I remember in the past where games were downright cheating, most 4X games actively cheat still, giving the AI stuff which the player is ill afforded. I get bored(which I find is a awful criteria to weight anything), when the challenge disappears, I dominate with the Aliens, especially with the Fade, but that's reason why I barely play Aliens anymore, if I do I go mostly Comm, and practice my sweet micro with the drifters.
But you're going to ask was that fun, well yea, but I find challenge fun, but some people don't, simple as that!
Incorrect. You will find that fun drops off as challenge increases to infinity. The idea that "herp derp I find a challenge fun" is what people like to think about themselves. It unfortunately just isn't true though.
Sweet, I'm getting lessons about myself, by someone else. I'm sorry, but I am not you, you find hard challenge boring, oh well who cares..... there's a reason why many games have very hard difficulties, I remember in the past where games were downright cheating, most 4X games actively cheat still, giving the AI stuff which the player is ill afforded. I get bored(which I find is a awful criteria to weight anything), when the challenge disappears, I dominate with the Aliens, especially with the Fade, but that's reason why I barely play Aliens anymore, if I do I go mostly Comm, and practice my sweet micro with the drifters.
Cool. Here I made a cool mod for you that you will love. The marine start with 500 resources so its extra challenging. You're gonna have so much fun!
But you're going to ask was that fun, well yea, but I find challenge fun, but some people don't, simple as that!
Incorrect. You will find that fun drops off as challenge increases to infinity. The idea that "herp derp I find a challenge fun" is what people like to think about themselves. It unfortunately just isn't true though.
Sweet, I'm getting lessons about myself, by someone else. I'm sorry, but I am not you, you find hard challenge boring, oh well who cares..... there's a reason why many games have very hard difficulties, I remember in the past where games were downright cheating, most 4X games actively cheat still, giving the AI stuff which the player is ill afforded. I get bored(which I find is a awful criteria to weight anything), when the challenge disappears, I dominate with the Aliens, especially with the Fade, but that's reason why I barely play Aliens anymore, if I do I go mostly Comm, and practice my sweet micro with the drifters.
Cool. Here I made a cool mod for you that you will love. The marine start with 500 resources so its extra challenging. You're gonna have so much fun!
I get it, you have nothing really to say, whatever. But I wouldn't mind trying something hard like that, ever played against the Bot's "aim-bot"? Really good, though still quite dumb the AI is.
But I hope you look at this game through a different way, the FPS slant is killing you!
On topic
I often get annoyed with being 1 shot as a skulk, but i understand it. A shotgun is infinitely more res than i cost at that point, and im kinda used to the attrition idea. Hey i got a bite or 2 off before being blasted, kewl the next skulk can hopefully do the same before he gets to our (insert strategic point here). Im way more annoyed with how few shots it takes as lerk/fade, but again Im used to it and dont really have an issue with it as im a pub player, so you dont go up versus too many guys that dont miss a shot.
I do have an issue with being able to shotgun across a room and get 50-80 dmg off. I just think that increasing the spread would go a long way in making ALL SHOTGUN less viable than at least a mix of shotgun and lmgs. Not withstanding flamer and GL issues, that the balance test is trying to address.
Off topic
Im from South Africa as well, and have had the "pleasure" of quite an amount of games with Imbalanxd. I think that he often makes pretty good points, then decides to SMOTHER them in a load of bull. And he gets emo faster than any supercar can get from 0-100.
When he joins a game generally the best idea is to just mute him, or take everything he says with a pinch of salt. Same for his posts, skim over them take what you think relates, then flat out ignore the inflammatory statements.
He does actually understand NS well though and although i may not enjoy seeing him ingame, but I have learnt alot from him. Having such a small community tends to teach you to learn fast!
And yes i did register just to reply to this ridiculousness. And hopefully show, not all South Africans are as inflammatory.
On topic
I often get annoyed with being 1 shot as a skulk, but i understand it. A shotgun is infinitely more res than i cost at that point, and im kinda used to the attrition idea. Hey i got a bite or 2 off before being blasted, kewl the next skulk can hopefully do the same before he gets to our (insert strategic point here). Im way more annoyed with how few shots it takes as lerk/fade, but again Im used to it and dont really have an issue with it as im a pub player, so you dont go up versus too many guys that dont miss a shot.
Most people won't stick around long enough to get used to it. South African community case in point.
Some people will say something along the lines of "we don't need those players". Well actually we need all the players we can get.
Considering that after 800 hours of play, I still know of no method of combating a shotgun as a skulk that doesn't involve a very high probability of death, yes, I would think it is a very valid and relevant argument.
>>Has 800+ hours of NS2... still doesn't understand proper ambush tactics.
what the hell are you guys doing in spawn queue? twiddling your damn thumbs? I'm checking my map the entire spawn, and calling stuff out the entire time. even when dead I'm still engaged. spawning is only ever boring if I let it be.
So what exactly are the suggestions from those who feel the shotgun needs some changes? Exactly how low should the shotgun power go? And would you possibly combine that with an increased ROF or not? Do want to see changes to the spread as well? Maybe any reload time/clipsize changes?
Also, a bit of dead time in an intense game can help to give periods of a little more calm in between the madness, thereby increasing the highs of the intense times even more.
That scenario you painted sounds like a brilliant game, and thoroughly enjoyable. I would hope it's in a fairly high level pub though, because if I died that many times to greens I might be a little upset with my own performance on a purely selfish level
what the hell are you guys doing in spawn queue? twiddling your damn thumbs? I'm checking my map the entire spawn, and calling stuff out the entire time. even when dead I'm still engaged. spawning is only ever boring if I let it be.
Oh so this. I never understand people that "check out" of a team based game while in the spawn queue.
So what exactly are the suggestions from those who feel the shotgun needs some changes? Exactly how low should the shotgun power go? And would you possibly combine that with an increased ROF or not? Do want to see changes to the spread as well? Maybe any reload time/clipsize changes?
My personal opinion is that a good starting point would be to decrease the damage and increase the ROF equally. I say start at half damage, 2x ROF, but that's just me. This, while keeping the same dps of the SG, gives the aliens (and the game) time to register that damage has been done to them and to allow them to make a decisions based upon that knowledge. As it is, with a SG, you rarely have time to see that you're health is low before you're dead (partly due to the game not registering damage immediately and partly due to how much damage the SG does). I think that the spread might be a bit tight since you can still get decent damage into something across the room, but I wouldn't advice messing with that and the damage/ROF at the same time.
I wondered how the fuck this thread even made it past page 1, as someone else pointed out strofix has disappeared and Imbalanxd has re-appeared, now I know why. Why is this beyond a shadow of a doubt 24/7 shit poster not banned? Other people getting banned permanently for negative attitudes on a bad day/night while one guy is free to make 3k+ posts of horseshit over 5 months...
SG is an unfortunate by product of game balance, without a HMG or any other significantly useful weapon to combat higher lifeforms the SG has to remain rather high in dmg with longer reload times to blank out the few chances good lerks/fades will give them to take them out, the NS1 SG wouldn't cut it against half of any SS fade with the dmg values it had, HMG was used far more often in NS1 than SG ever was, people are always gonna min max.
I wondered how the fuck this thread even made it past page 1, as someone else pointed out strofix has disappeared and Imbalanxd has re-appeared, now I know why. Why is this beyond a shadow of a doubt 24/7 shit poster not banned? Other people getting banned permanently for negative attitudes on a bad day/night while one guy is free to make 3k+ posts of horseshit over 5 months...
1 shotgun can be picked up when dead...same does not go for lerk, gorge, fade or onos.
So to argue res investment is equally ridiculous as when you die...your team does not necesarily lose the res invested as is the case on the alien team.
Which is why it's important as aliens to:
a) secure the area so the shotgun cannot be recovered
b) use gorge bilebomb to destroy the shotgun
c) use gorge spit to move the shotgun into a safer place/out of reach for marines
or
d) use the shotgun as the ambush point to kill incoming marines trying to recap it.
What people seem to forget is that aliens often have the choice of when and where to engage marines, not so much vice versa. I see so many aliens hear or see marines and they just HAVE to engage ASAP. OMG marines are in ventilation, GOT TO TAKE THEM OUT... (or could set up the ambush in pipe junction while a teammate supports from behind them via crossroads? or maybe redivert through crossroads to hit sub extractor to drag them back?). If the marines are taking our your harvester somewhere and you weren't able to set the ambush up, try waiting a few seconds longer for reinforcements so you can go in with multiple aliens at once. Even if you lose the harvester, the trade might be worth it in pres loss for marines with shotties, together with the loss of map control they suffer through losing the engagement.
I suppose the railgun and GL should be removed from the game as well, as they can 1-shot skulks.
It seems to me that your argument is simple: you don't like 1-shot weapons. That is rather unfortunate, given how many games use OHK weapons...
There is a level of understanding that you seem to have missed....aliens need to invade marine territory, so attacking and not simply sitting in ambush is needed. This is even more the case by mid game when SG and weapons upgrades are in place.
The insane level of mobility marines have makes holding areas of the map very difficult for aliens as a smart marine team pushes out in one direction...meaning aliens have to try to guess which way they are pushing. This approach means if aliens have spread their forces out to cover the lines of attack that they are outnumbered in conflict...or they have to roll the dice on which way marines will push.
Gorges are a double edged sword as they are not exactly useful in combat...and they are not intended to be.
So your point of how to destroy SG's on teh ground is about as useful as carapace once W3 are up.
I dont know what servers you play on but I rarely see aliens having much control over where the battle is when you have a co-ordinated marine team.
Your actually very limited as to where is a good place to set up ambushes...which most smart marines are aware of and take more care and not walk blindly into an ambush.
I have never said there is anything wrong with the GL in its current format (though there was a lot of resistance to removing underslung...but thankfully common sense prevailed there), nor the rail gun.
What I have repeatedly said is that marines already have enough weapons that can 1 shot most aliens life forms and that the SG is OP'd.
Both the GL and Rail gun have good disadvantages (slow ROF...limited ammo..self damage) yet the SG does not.
Whilst other games have OHK weapons...they offer them to both sides...they dont have 1 sides base units upgrading in attack and defence and the other side not.
Whilst asymmetry is fine to a point...the lack of a downside to the SG, coupled with the the additional weapons that are OHK's take a lot of the enjoyment out of the game for the alien side.
To counter Xao's statement that SG is needed to counter higher lifeforms I simply say why could the SG not do different levels of damage to different life forms?
If it did half the current damage to skulks, 75% on lerks and about the same to onos and fade it would help address the main issue of it being OP'd against almost every alien lifeform and remove 1 instagib from the marine arsenal (still leaving GL's, rail guns as methods of instagibbing skulks..and some other lifeforms)
Sorry didn't think I said they did, they do without cara...and given a SG does instagib once w3 is up...I know I often choose regen over cara late game.
Aliens dont always have cara as an optional upgrade...depends on hive choices...marines can always get full armour upgrades as they are not by tech points or hive types...just res (which is also a limit for aliens).
Comments
So to argue res investment is equally ridiculous as when you die...your team does not necesarily lose the res invested as is the case on the alien team.
New players who play marines have more fun than new players who play aliens...because even when your losing as a marine your still having fun killing aliens (that you can 1 shot lifeforms just makes it easier to enjoy playing marine...and more infuriating to play aliens)
Increasing the viability of GL, FT and exo's does nothing to help address the underlying issue of the SG being OP'd.
Marines already have enough weapons that instagib a lot of (most) alien life forms, increasing the "viability" of FT, GL and EXO's does nothing to address the underlying issues.
The solution to the underslung GL was not to make the FT or SG better...but to nerf the LMG/underslung combo be removing it.
The SG has almost 0 down side....the only downside it has is if you have no pistol ammo and its your only weapon.
It was funny during the beta on aussie servers we saw SG and JP rushes all the time (well once underslung GL's got removed)...even after arcs, exo's and all the other bells and whistles came into the game...if you wanted to win...rush JP's and SG's....rush hive/s and win.
If we want to see this game flourish and new players hang around...then we need to sort out the issues with 1 side having multiple instagibs and the other side having an enemy that gets increasingly harder to kill.
Thats not asymmetry..its bad game design.
As I said in my earlier post...its not about win loss ratios...but about both sides having fun and feeling like they can win (regardless of whether or not they can).
Aliens often feel they are losing...right up to the point marines concede.
From the alien team perspective even when your winning you feel like your losing...simply because you are dieing more often and easily than your enemy.
Before concede votes came in...we saw many more turtles as a result of this disparity in levels of "fun".
The servers I play on can probably be split in two departments: Marines and aliens are derpy, or marines and aliens know what they are doing. On the former servers newbie Skulks run at marines in a straight line while being shot at a lot. On the other hand even the the first shot with a shotgun is usually only a glancing hit. If the Skulks have leap the first shot misses outright. Reason: Aim is a skill, too.
If it is the latter kind of server marines hit a Skulk running straight at them with one hit, even multiple Skulks doing that. On the other hand there are barely any aliens doing that on those servers, they usually use walls an ceiling to get close unnoticed, and zigzag around the marine to keep out of direct fire. Reason: Those guys have learned how to evade being hit.
Both cases are not really close to the "I'm being killed without being able to do anything about it" some people here keep describing.
And for the record: Alien wins are often way more epic than marine ones.
nice straw man argument there
But back to the shotgun, powerful yes.... but not as bad as people are saying, also it's hard to make people even buy the things because people keep losing them, when I command, I have to moan for ages for people to buy them, because most are waiting for Jetpacks or Exos.
Here's a point, someone who comes on the server I go on, he only uses the rifle except for when fades pop out, and he's K/D(as it seems people care for this) is about 25/5 quite consistently.
I think here people need to give ideas how to attack a shot-gunner, I like to wait for more buddies then attack, or if they on they own, then I'll try to get the perfect attack, but this only occurs for me because I wish to keep biting on the RT, I barely set out just to push up my K/D.
But sometimes you just have to retreat.
You know another funny thing, wait until most are bunch up, then half the time they'll be shooting each-other instead of the life-form.
I guess it comes down to adaptation instead of base skill, which I think is the alien's strong point, not to be simple and methodical, like the marines, but some people like that aspect.
Though nothing is more powerful in the this game then a organised alien attack, Lerks crop dusting, onus tanking, fades snipping and skulks running interference.
I love the shotgun, but I do feel its choke is just a little too tight, I can easily get several 50-70 damage shots on a target from across a decent sized room.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the exo loses.
Imagine a fight between an exo and an onos in which the onos loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a marine and a fade in which the fade loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the lerk loses.
Imagine a fight between a lerk and a marine in which the marine loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the shotgun loses.
Imagine a fight between a shotgun and a skulk in which the skulk loses.
The last one should have required a lot less imagination.
And what context is this in? These points in my mind have no real relevance to the game, the fights in this game should have a meaning to them, unlike pure FPS games where the fight is the meaning.
I believe you only focus on the FPS side, by reading the thread so far.
Also one Vs one should always be made hard, I thought lately which could help the idea of making it more teams based is lowering the health of everything in the game, making teamwork and smart play even more crucial, also making things which are powerful less of the issue.
Ok then, imagine the following scenario then.
You just played the finest game of NS ever witnessed by mortal eyes. The strategic depth and cunning used by both teams was astounding and inhuman, but eventually your team won out. However, due to a series of unfortunate circumstances, you spend a very large amount of the round respawning. In fact, 50% of your round was spend respawning, amounting to almost 10 minutes spent in respawn. However, you take solace in the fact that your deaths were meaningful and helped your team win.
Do you think that you personally would have enjoyed this round?
Which is why it's important as aliens to:
a) secure the area so the shotgun cannot be recovered
b) use gorge bilebomb to destroy the shotgun
c) use gorge spit to move the shotgun into a safer place/out of reach for marines
or
d) use the shotgun as the ambush point to kill incoming marines trying to recap it.
What people seem to forget is that aliens often have the choice of when and where to engage marines, not so much vice versa. I see so many aliens hear or see marines and they just HAVE to engage ASAP. OMG marines are in ventilation, GOT TO TAKE THEM OUT... (or could set up the ambush in pipe junction while a teammate supports from behind them via crossroads? or maybe redivert through crossroads to hit sub extractor to drag them back?). If the marines are taking our your harvester somewhere and you weren't able to set the ambush up, try waiting a few seconds longer for reinforcements so you can go in with multiple aliens at once. Even if you lose the harvester, the trade might be worth it in pres loss for marines with shotties, together with the loss of map control they suffer through losing the engagement.
I suppose the railgun and GL should be removed from the game as well, as they can 1-shot skulks.
It seems to me that your argument is simple: you don't like 1-shot weapons. That is rather unfortunate, given how many games use OHK weapons...
So to recap
Marines must: shoot at aliens, jump away from them, sprint around corners, do backflips while throwing hatchets at flying fades and lerks and wrestle with huge oni in order to take the upgrade away.
Aliens must: camp the room or spit/bile bomb on the floor.
TO THE MARINE PORTAL!
I do that most of the time as a Skulk, only when I'm a higher life-form is where surviving has meaning, the only time a skulk should be careful as-well as a early marine, is in the early game where you don't won't to waste respawns, but it's a different mindset, maybe the game isn't for you, this game shouldn't be played on purely FPS-Fun based mindset(new phases everyone), but as I said I would like a more RTS stat screen then a FPS one, it saddened me when someone at the end of the round, someone goes look at my awesome K/D, but thankfully that's rarely the case.
Every time I command I give MVPs not to the person who has the best K/D but who did the most economic damage, this play style would even more encourage if they remove the scores for kills, or at-least make one for kills.
But you're going to ask was that fun, well yea, but I find challenge fun, but some people don't, simple as that!
Incorrect. You will find that fun drops off as challenge increases to infinity. The idea that "herp derp I find a challenge fun" is what people like to think about themselves. It unfortunately just isn't true though.
Sweet, I'm getting lessons about myself, by someone else. I'm sorry, but I am not you, you find hard challenge boring, oh well who cares..... there's a reason why many games have very hard difficulties, I remember in the past where games were downright cheating, most 4X games actively cheat still, giving the AI stuff which the player is ill afforded. I get bored(which I find is a awful criteria to weight anything), when the challenge disappears, I dominate with the Aliens, especially with the Fade, but that's reason why I barely play Aliens anymore, if I do I go mostly Comm, and practice my sweet micro with the drifters.
Cool. Here I made a cool mod for you that you will love. The marine start with 500 resources so its extra challenging. You're gonna have so much fun!
I get it, you have nothing really to say, whatever. But I wouldn't mind trying something hard like that, ever played against the Bot's "aim-bot"? Really good, though still quite dumb the AI is.
But I hope you look at this game through a different way, the FPS slant is killing you!
I often get annoyed with being 1 shot as a skulk, but i understand it. A shotgun is infinitely more res than i cost at that point, and im kinda used to the attrition idea. Hey i got a bite or 2 off before being blasted, kewl the next skulk can hopefully do the same before he gets to our (insert strategic point here). Im way more annoyed with how few shots it takes as lerk/fade, but again Im used to it and dont really have an issue with it as im a pub player, so you dont go up versus too many guys that dont miss a shot.
I do have an issue with being able to shotgun across a room and get 50-80 dmg off. I just think that increasing the spread would go a long way in making ALL SHOTGUN less viable than at least a mix of shotgun and lmgs. Not withstanding flamer and GL issues, that the balance test is trying to address.
Off topic
Im from South Africa as well, and have had the "pleasure" of quite an amount of games with Imbalanxd. I think that he often makes pretty good points, then decides to SMOTHER them in a load of bull. And he gets emo faster than any supercar can get from 0-100.
When he joins a game generally the best idea is to just mute him, or take everything he says with a pinch of salt. Same for his posts, skim over them take what you think relates, then flat out ignore the inflammatory statements.
He does actually understand NS well though and although i may not enjoy seeing him ingame, but I have learnt alot from him. Having such a small community tends to teach you to learn fast!
And yes i did register just to reply to this ridiculousness. And hopefully show, not all South Africans are as inflammatory.
Most people won't stick around long enough to get used to it. South African community case in point.
Some people will say something along the lines of "we don't need those players". Well actually we need all the players we can get.
>>Has 800+ hours of NS2... still doesn't understand proper ambush tactics.
Just thought I would point that out.
That scenario you painted sounds like a brilliant game, and thoroughly enjoyable. I would hope it's in a fairly high level pub though, because if I died that many times to greens I might be a little upset with my own performance on a purely selfish level
Oh so this. I never understand people that "check out" of a team based game while in the spawn queue.
My personal opinion is that a good starting point would be to decrease the damage and increase the ROF equally. I say start at half damage, 2x ROF, but that's just me. This, while keeping the same dps of the SG, gives the aliens (and the game) time to register that damage has been done to them and to allow them to make a decisions based upon that knowledge. As it is, with a SG, you rarely have time to see that you're health is low before you're dead (partly due to the game not registering damage immediately and partly due to how much damage the SG does). I think that the spread might be a bit tight since you can still get decent damage into something across the room, but I wouldn't advice messing with that and the damage/ROF at the same time.
SG is an unfortunate by product of game balance, without a HMG or any other significantly useful weapon to combat higher lifeforms the SG has to remain rather high in dmg with longer reload times to blank out the few chances good lerks/fades will give them to take them out, the NS1 SG wouldn't cut it against half of any SS fade with the dmg values it had, HMG was used far more often in NS1 than SG ever was, people are always gonna min max.
waaaaait for it...............................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread-locking_fluid
There is a level of understanding that you seem to have missed....aliens need to invade marine territory, so attacking and not simply sitting in ambush is needed. This is even more the case by mid game when SG and weapons upgrades are in place.
The insane level of mobility marines have makes holding areas of the map very difficult for aliens as a smart marine team pushes out in one direction...meaning aliens have to try to guess which way they are pushing. This approach means if aliens have spread their forces out to cover the lines of attack that they are outnumbered in conflict...or they have to roll the dice on which way marines will push.
Gorges are a double edged sword as they are not exactly useful in combat...and they are not intended to be.
So your point of how to destroy SG's on teh ground is about as useful as carapace once W3 are up.
I dont know what servers you play on but I rarely see aliens having much control over where the battle is when you have a co-ordinated marine team.
Your actually very limited as to where is a good place to set up ambushes...which most smart marines are aware of and take more care and not walk blindly into an ambush.
I have never said there is anything wrong with the GL in its current format (though there was a lot of resistance to removing underslung...but thankfully common sense prevailed there), nor the rail gun.
What I have repeatedly said is that marines already have enough weapons that can 1 shot most aliens life forms and that the SG is OP'd.
Both the GL and Rail gun have good disadvantages (slow ROF...limited ammo..self damage) yet the SG does not.
Whilst other games have OHK weapons...they offer them to both sides...they dont have 1 sides base units upgrading in attack and defence and the other side not.
Whilst asymmetry is fine to a point...the lack of a downside to the SG, coupled with the the additional weapons that are OHK's take a lot of the enjoyment out of the game for the alien side.
To counter Xao's statement that SG is needed to counter higher lifeforms I simply say why could the SG not do different levels of damage to different life forms?
If it did half the current damage to skulks, 75% on lerks and about the same to onos and fade it would help address the main issue of it being OP'd against almost every alien lifeform and remove 1 instagib from the marine arsenal (still leaving GL's, rail guns as methods of instagibbing skulks..and some other lifeforms)
Aliens dont always have cara as an optional upgrade...depends on hive choices...marines can always get full armour upgrades as they are not by tech points or hive types...just res (which is also a limit for aliens).