Comments on NS2 Beacon

MazzaMazza Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75194Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 45

Hey all,

Just wondering what are the community comments regarding about the NS2 Beacon compared to how NS1 did it.

For those who don't know and need a reminder
NS1 beacon costed 15 res and respawns and recalls every alive marine back to marine spawn.
NS2 beacon costs 10 tRes and only recalls every alive marine back to the closest CC of where the obs triggered it.

 

My comments:
It feels like the NS2 beacon doesn't seem like an upgrade compared to NS1's beacon. NS1 could respawn every dead marine whilst NS2 only recalls every alive marine back to spawn. I'm okay with the cost of the NS2 beacon (being 10 tRes) as its quite reasonable for what it does but just can't seem to find a good reason as to why this got changed from how it worked from NS1.

When my friends (who are vets of NS1) go marine commander for the first time they always question me why the beacon doesn't respawn every marine like how it did in NS1.

My idea would be to have another obs ability called Recall and change beacon to work similar to NS1.
Recall - Costs 10 tRes - Recalls all alive marines on the field back to the closest active CC of where this ob triggered it.
Beacon - Costs 25 tRes (To be adjusted) - Respawns and recalls all marines back to the closest active CC of where this ob triggered it.

Your throughts?

 

Stoneburg
«1

Comments

  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members Posts: 291
    i like how it works, i wish you could cancel it thou.
    RoobubbaKenshikeneliotmat
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    edited May 2013
    It doesn't respawn every single dead marine because they forgot to change it back when they nerfed/unnerfed/reworked the old obs energy beacon way back in beta.  I mean, current beacon is supposed to recall you if you are already spawning from an IP, but even that isn't working reliably.

    No one has campaigned for it to be fixed because marine turtling is already too effective due to other reasons.

    Generally, 2 ns1 res ~= 1.5 ns2 tres, so 10 tres ns2 beacon isn't really off by that much.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • MazzaMazza Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75194Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 45
    nezz wrote: »
    i like how it works, i wish you could cancel it thou.
    You can cancel it by recycling the obs then cancel the recycle while the obs is 'researching' beacon.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    nezz said:
    i like how it works, i wish you could cancel it thou.
    But I like harassing marine bases, forcing them to start beacon, and then running off again.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    Mazza said:
    nezz wrote: »
    i like how it works, i wish you could cancel it thou.
    You can cancel it by recycling the obs then cancel the recycle while the obs is 'researching' beacon.
    Do you get your res back?
  • WoollySammothWoollySammoth Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183062Members Posts: 78
    I don't mind the way it works now.  It feels fairly well balanced for giving marines the ability to rush back and defend a base whilst being still being abusable by cunning aliens.  I don't think it should be too easily cancelled otherwise it might be to hard for aliens to force a decoy beacon. 

    Adding another, upgraded form of beacon i'm not instantly against, but i feel it needs a weakness as well as an advantage, I wouldn't want it be used as just a quick respawner.  Maybe have a much longer cool down, or it "overloads" the Infantry portals so after an advanced beacon they don't start respawning marines for 30 seconds or something (fairly random number there ;p).  Just so if you advanced beacon over normal beacon and you get whooped there's more risk.  Or any other idea really, just something to increase the risk in line with the increased reward, i get it's more expensive but 15 res is like, some of a shotgun, and if you can revive 3 lmg people for less than 1 shotgun costs that's too good of a deal.  :p


    I am A Octofish
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 4,983 mod
    Was changed because it was a very effective turtle strategy (e.g. regular beacons to make up for slow spawning time). However, many of those reasons are less relevant now such that I'd love to see it spawn all dead marines again.

    My personal choice would for it to go back to the early beta version where
    - All dead marines are spawned
    - It beacons to the obs rather than the nearest command station

    Beacon rushes from a ninja obs were one of my favorite type of rushes. It made comming feel more like a middle management position of dropping medpacks/structures and getting tech.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 1,011 Advanced user

    ScardyBob said:
    - It beacons to the obs rather than the nearest command station

    I unno, sounds like instant hive destroyer.

  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members Posts: 452 Fully active user
    xen32 said:
    Mazza said:
    nezz wrote: »
    i like how it works, i wish you could cancel it thou.
    You can cancel it by recycling the obs then cancel the recycle while the obs is 'researching' beacon.
    Do you get your res back?
    You don't lose any res until the recycle timer finishes, it's free to cancel a beacon by tapping V twice.
    tummy_yummy
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    There are Good Reasons© behind preventing faking a beacon that I'm sure better players can explain
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
    there's no reason to make the UI for canceling a beacon to be a double recycle...

    but so many things are just unintended and poorly designed throughout the game... and then it's magically balanced around 50% final win rate :S
  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation Posts: 486 Fully active user
    NS1 beacon costed 15 res and respawns and recalls every alive marine back to marine start.

    There's a real difference!
    twiliteblue
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 4,983 mod
    IronHorse wrote: »
    There are Good Reasons© behind preventing faking a beacon that I'm sure better players can explain
    I don't think it would be as bad as expected, especially if you made canceling the beacon only partially refund the cost (say 50%)? We have a similar dynamic with extractor recycling/canceling.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    Was changed because it was a very effective turtle strategy (e.g. regular beacons to make up for slow spawning time). However, many of those reasons are less relevant now such that I'd love to see it spawn all dead marines again.

    My personal choice would for it to go back to the early beta version where- All dead marines are spawned- It beacons to the obs rather than the nearest command station

    Beacon rushes from a ninja obs were one of my favorite type of rushes. It made comming feel more like a middle management position of dropping medpacks/structures and getting tech.
    Was there actually an implementation that spawned marines in reasonable positions around the obs? I see loads of stuff that can go bonkers if the game actually has to adapt the beacon spawn spots to any location where you're allowed to have an obs.
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 2,395 mod
    Would rather see it returned to the NS1 mechanic, where it recalls all marines (including dead or respawning) to the nearest CC. It's useful for organizing rushes.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 336 Fully active user
    I don't see how such a massive buff would be fair unless the Aliens also get a massive buff so they are able to repeatedly kill respawning Marines lategame in the base.
    Cyber_kun: Not going to invade again
    Cyber_kun: Well, least not in the area that requires you to run forever
    Lolgorgeous: np i appreciate you wasting 30 minutes of my time anyway

    ~~Dark Souls~~
  • MazzaMazza Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75194Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 45
    edited May 2013
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    It beacons to the obs rather than the nearest command station. Beacon rushes from a ninja obs were one of my favorite type of rushes.

    I always thought the beta days of beaconing worked exactly like how it did in NS1. It would beacon back to marine spawn regardless of where the obs was at.
    I gotta agree with you on the other statement though. Ninja pg with beacon rush was a risky but rewarding strat.
    lwf wrote: »
    NS1 beacon costed 15 res and respawns and recalls every alive marine back to marine start

    There's a real difference!

    Quite right - I just always mixed marine (or alien) start with spawn and vice versa a lot of the times.
    CyberKun wrote: »
    I don't see how such a massive buff would be fair unless the Aliens also get a massive buff so they are able to repeatedly kill respawning Marines lategame in the base.
    It's not so much of a buff if it was implemented and adjusted properly.
    i.e. You can not cancel a beacon, adjust the tRes cost, add requirements such as 2 CC's, add restrictions such as cooldowns, etc...

    Aliens already have a very strong (early game) strat of spawning shift eggs anywhere on the field. They can also spam lerk spores before the beacon finishes to blind and damage the beaconed marines.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 4,983 mod
    Bacillus wrote: »
    Was there actually an implementation that spawned marines in reasonable positions around the obs? I see loads of stuff that can go bonkers if the game actually has to adapt the beacon spawn spots to any location where you're allowed to have an obs.
    It had its issues, but it more or less worked. The worst case I saw was if the obs was next to a pit (think crevice or vent) and some marines would be spawned over the edge.
    CyberKun wrote: »
    I don't see how such a massive buff would be fair unless the Aliens also get a massive buff so they are able to repeatedly kill respawning Marines lategame in the base.
    Its not hard to balance this by increasing the beacon cost or having it respawn only a fraction of the dead marines.

    Personally, nerfing marines have never really solved the turtling issue. The solution is to give aliens a highly effective tier2/3 tech sieging ability equivalent to the ARC. This is why we never worry about alien turtles.
    Roobubba
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members Posts: 782 Advanced user
    With beacon now able to send marines to secondary bases (as long as they have a command station + obs in the area), reviving dead marines might be a bit much. Either you have 1 or the other, but not both.

    Although, your idea to have recall, and a seperate beacon that revives might work as long as the cost is significantly greater (and thus, is only justified in dire emergencies, and you have to keep 25 res open if you want to use it - thus discouraging overuse)
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 721 Advanced user
    Beacon is better in NS2, more interresting and balanced as is.

    Also, one have to manage live / dead mates ratio. There is no miracle beacon to change a given situation and the way you can make profit out of it (opposite side), or get out of it (your side).
    Freak out
  • SolarisSolaris Join Date: 2003-05-11 Member: 16213Members Posts: 185
    What do you think about a second type of beacon you can select from the obs?
    Type 1 "Recall" - teleports all ALIVE Marines to the tech point nearest to the Obs
    Type 2 "Reinforce" - respawns all DEAD Marines at the tech point nearest to the Obs
    I think there are good reasons to use any of those two. Both should have their own sound effect so players can hear the difference.
    For balancing you could adjust the res cost for the different types, add a cooldown to the beacons (to prevent spamming), add a cooldown to the Obs (to prevent a combination of both types if this should be too powerful even with the res costs).

    Alternatively I could think of an "overclock" ability for the IPs.
    Commanders can basically spend some t-res on speeding up the time it take for the IP to "print" the next Marine. As an additional drawback the freshly spawned Marine could have reduced armor (or health) reflecting the IP skipping over parts of the printing process.
    The first rule of the tautology club is the first rule of the tautology club.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members Posts: 944
    To be honest I think that the fact that the obs does not need to be in same room as the CC is enough latitude for the marines.
    I have seen some cleverly placed obs catch aliens out on many occasions (as rarely do they look outside of the room for an obs).
    It also removes the dependency on power for beacons to that tech point.

    Spawning back dead marines is overkill, it can be hard enough dealing with having the current living marines suddenly appear in a base you have pushed into (and taken losses), having those marines you just killed instantly re-appearing give marines too much of an advantage.

    In NS1 the beacon sent you back to original marine spawn...so the benefit was limited as it you could not use it to easily move marines around the map (you needed phase gates for that).

    Beaconing does (unless something have changed) cause any marines in the spawning process to spawn...though not sure how this works when the tech point does not have IP's...I am guessing it doesn't which makes logical sense.

  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 721 Advanced user
    hakenspit wrote: »
    Beaconing does (unless something have changed) cause any marines in the spawning process to spawn...though not sure how this works when the tech point does not have IP's...I am guessing it doesn't which makes logical sense.

    Marine beaconed in middle of spawning should do so as incompletes corrupted zombies ...

    Freak out
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Wake wrote: »
    hakenspit wrote: »
    Beaconing does (unless something have changed) cause any marines in the spawning process to spawn...though not sure how this works when the tech point does not have IP's...I am guessing it doesn't which makes logical sense.

    Marine beaconed in middle of spawning should do so as incompletes corrupted zombies ...

    Legs only.
    76561197996992409.png
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members Posts: 944
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Wake wrote: »
    hakenspit wrote: »
    Beaconing does (unless something have changed) cause any marines in the spawning process to spawn...though not sure how this works when the tech point does not have IP's...I am guessing it doesn't which makes logical sense.

    Marine beaconed in middle of spawning should do so as incompletes corrupted zombies ...

    Legs only.
    I would say torso, head and arms...so they can see and shoot but not move off the IP ;)
    All very monty python and the holy grail....



  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 721 Advanced user
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members Posts: 1,168 Advanced user
    xen32 wrote: »
    Mazza said:



    nezz wrote: »

    i like how it works, i wish you could cancel it thou.



    You can cancel it by recycling the obs then cancel the recycle while the obs is 'researching' beacon.

    Do you get your res back?

    I should hope not!
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members Posts: 944
    Wake wrote: »

    "Come back you cowards, I will bite you to death" ;)
  • ultranewbultranewb Pro Bug Hunter Join Date: 2004-07-21 Member: 30026Members Posts: 276 Fully active user
    How to add Cancel to beacon without being exploitable ...

    - partial or no refund of resources
    - cancel sound played to all (including enemies)
    [extra points to the dev if it sounds like the Millennium Falcon's hyper drive failing]
    - cancel triggers a cool-down for using the obs again

    I think all these drawbacks completely remove the ability to exploit it. A "fake" beacon would be easily recognizable by enemies, costs money, and cannot be easily followed by a real beacon.


    How to add respawn to beacon without screwing up balance ...

    - "beacon and respawn" is a second type of beacon
    - has an altered sound compared to regular beacon
    - this new beacon costs more than a normal, maybe WAY more
    - triggers a cool-down for using the obs again

    Once again, the drawbacks keep the feature in check. Regular beacon still exits. It's easily identified by the enemy. It's not a turtle friendly due to cost. A winning team with a good economy gets another tool to end the game quicker.

    Lastly, it actually favors aliens during certain times, like a siege attack. If the alien attack requires a full respawn of the marine team, the commander can no-longer scan the hive and it takes quite a chunk of the team resources away. There would be a proper risk-reward to using the feature.


    Done and Done.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    edited June 2013
    And then every time aliens enter my base when I command, I'll just fake it unless they remain.. And then my 12 marines will shred those brave souls.

    It's a poor meta game... And those suggestions sound complicated and unintuitive, Imo. A different sound would easily be distinguished, for instance.

    What we have now works well enough.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    lwfLocklear
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