Why are deaths shown on the scoreboard?

Ricez · May 2013

It seems like a relic from HL1. It means almost nothing in NS2 and can only discourage people from making team oriented decisions because they would want to preserve their KDR.

It's still worth showing kills, but removing deaths seems like a good idea to me.

"not getting killed" is generally not the main goal, it just encourages people to play in a personal-focused style. Just because you died does not mean you had no effect on the team goal. It shouldn't matter that you died, it matters that you made a step towards the team goal.

Tweadle · May 2013

To show you how many times you died.

ritualsacrifice · May 2013

Why would you want to hide your deaths? I don't get it at all.. if you're dying a bunch you're doing it wrong. Team oriented =/= suicidal. If you don't show deaths then showing kills is kind of pointless, too. Think of it this way: Every time you kill someone, you get a point. Every time someone kills you, they get a point. Without being able to compare kills to deaths, the kills have no context and thus very little meaning. Who cares if you earned 20 points if you gave away 100?

ScardyBob · May 2013

I find that you get a high death count more from ramboing than from teamwork.

Ricez · May 2013

ritualsacrifice said:

Why would you want to hide your deaths? I don't get it at all.. if you're dying a bunch you're doing it wrong. Team oriented =/= suicidal. If you don't show deaths then showing kills is kind of pointless, too. Think of it this way: Every time you kill someone, you get a point. Every time someone kills you, they get a point. Without being able to compare kills to deaths, the kills have no context and thus very little meaning. Who cares if you earned 20 points if you gave away 100?

But you don't actually lose anything from getting killed. As long as you are actually following the goals of the game then deaths means very little.

Rush the gorge/hive, or sit back and let someone else rush and start shooting at their feet?

Go cover the RT at topo that is being hit, or follow everyone else through the PG and go get some easy kill elsewhere on the map. Much more likely to die going to cover the RT.

Florp_Incarnate · May 2013

While I disagree with the OP, he raises an interesting question: what, if any value is there in a low death count? I always make the hike back to base to heal if I can, which takes valuable time. Would I be better off fighting a losing battle in order to do some small amount of damage to an enemy player? What is the most efficient practice here?

|strofix| · May 2013

"It means almost nothing in NS2"

"It's still worth showing kills"

ok

Desther · May 2013

|strofix| said:

"It means almost nothing in NS2"
"It's still worth showing kills"

ok

What's your point?

|strofix| · May 2013

Desther said:
What's your point?

The OP is clearly insincere in his desires. Every reason for removing kills from the scoreboard is circumvented by him wanting to keep kills on it.

He has ulterior motives. Ones that probably even he isn't aware of.

But to give an honest and proper answer:

Since this game is first and foremost an FPS, chances are the vast majority of players will want to see how many times they have died, rather than having to keep it in memory. Having the display of kills toggle-able is obviously not an option because that is the pinnacle of shit design. Solution?

Display deaths.

Though, I too have requested that all of it be removed from the scoreboard. In fact I wouldn't mind if the only thing visible on the scoreboard was a players ping.

Ghosthree3 · May 2013

Yeah I hate doing this, but I have to agree with strofix. If deaths aren't worth showing, kills aren't either, they don't benefit the game in any way other than showing who's better than who. This is however an FPS game, so both are needed kthxbai.

Desther · May 2013

Ghosthree3 said:

Yeah I hate doing this, but I have to agree with strofix. If deaths aren't worth showing, kills aren't either, they don't benefit the game in any way other than showing who's better than who. This is however an FPS game, so both are needed kthxbai.

Kills may not have benefit but they don't detract anything. Showing deaths gives people a reason to single out and whine at bad players, and gives a reason for people to camp or play defensively and change their playstyle to a more selfish one because they don't want other people seeing that they died a bunch of times more than the rest of the team.

DC_Darkling · May 2013

I see it as a constant reminder that I need to improve aim and a reminder that at times i should rush less and stealth more.
Dead players do not gain resources.
And therein lies the use of the k/d scores. You notice how insane you are screwing up compared to the rest on the server and thus kick yourself awake and try to adjust accordingly.

Some folk need a nudge now and then

eliotmat · May 2013

There are costs associated with deaths.

For example:

1. Increased spawn time for teammates (ever get egg locked?)

2. Increased amount of time traveling to points-of-interest

3. Loss of weapons/lifeforms

Neoken · May 2013

Florp_Incarnate said:

While I disagree with the OP, he raises an interesting question: what, if any value is there in a low death count? I always make the hike back to base to heal if I can, which takes valuable time. Would I be better off fighting a losing battle in order to do some small amount of damage to an enemy player? What is the most efficient practice here?

Depends on the situation.

Ghosthree3 · May 2013

Desther said:

Ghosthree3 said:

Yeah I hate doing this, but I have to agree with strofix. If deaths aren't worth showing, kills aren't either, they don't benefit the game in any way other than showing who's better than who. This is however an FPS game, so both are needed kthxbai.

Kills may not have benefit but they don't detract anything. Showing deaths gives people a reason to single out and whine at bad players, and gives a reason for people to camp or play defensively and change their playstyle to a more selfish one because they don't want other people seeing that they died a bunch of times more than the rest of the team.

Yes, lets all live in a magical land of pixies where being bad is ok and tolerated by everyone, this will surely result in a great experience by everyone.

SolidSpider · May 2013

Ricez said:

ritualsacrifice said:

Why would you want to hide your deaths? I don't get it at all.. if you're dying a bunch you're doing it wrong. Team oriented =/= suicidal. If you don't show deaths then showing kills is kind of pointless, too. Think of it this way: Every time you kill someone, you get a point. Every time someone kills you, they get a point. Without being able to compare kills to deaths, the kills have no context and thus very little meaning. Who cares if you earned 20 points if you gave away 100?

But you don't actually lose anything from getting killed. As long as you are actually following the goals of the game then deaths means very little.

Rush the gorge/hive, or sit back and let someone else rush and start shooting at their feet?

Go cover the RT at topo that is being hit, or follow everyone else through the PG and go get some easy kill elsewhere on the map. Much more likely to die going to cover the RT.

If you play badly, you die more often than if you know what you're doing somewhat. I mean, while sacrificing yourself to secure an important objective is fine, and sometimes necessary (eg. finishing off an Onos or saving a Hive), it's generally a good idea not to be dying all the time.

There are plenty of downsides to getting killed: losing weapons and lifeforms, no res while dead, giving the other team map control... I mean, think about it. Which is the best team, the team that dies more, or the one that dies less?

Scoreboard is fine, imho.

Desther · May 2013

eliotmat said:

There are costs associated with deaths.

For example:
1. Increased spawn time for teammates (ever get egg locked?)
2. Increased amount of time traveling to points-of-interest
3. Loss of weapons/lifeforms

How does knowing your death count have any bearing on these? If you are egglocked then comm can do something about it (Shift / IP) or advise all players to try and play more defensively for a while to try and stay alive. Personal death counts being visible doesn't affect this at all other than to give ammunition for scoreboard shamers.

If someone is running Rambo then the comm can advise them not to without seeing their deaths. Unless he only has a problem with Rambos when they fail and die more than the kill, in which case he should look into the future and find out if they should Rambo or not.

If someone loses their lifeform then they 100% know that they lost it. How is this related to everyone seeing your death count?

Kouji_San · May 2013

It does give the commander an insight into how good or bad his players are at spawn-queuing and the more visually obvious egg-locking.

Desther · May 2013

Ghosthree3 said:

Desther said:

Ghosthree3 said:

Yeah I hate doing this, but I have to agree with strofix. If deaths aren't worth showing, kills aren't either, they don't benefit the game in any way other than showing who's better than who. This is however an FPS game, so both are needed kthxbai.

Kills may not have benefit but they don't detract anything. Showing deaths gives people a reason to single out and whine at bad players, and gives a reason for people to camp or play defensively and change their playstyle to a more selfish one because they don't want other people seeing that they died a bunch of times more than the rest of the team.

Yes, lets all live in a magical land of pixies where being bad is ok and tolerated by everyone, this will surely result in a great experience by everyone.

Are you serious? This is a pvp game, being bad is relative to your opponent and yes, we need to move towards that world.

Kouji_San said:

It does give the commander an insight into how good or bad his players are at spawn-queuing and the more visually obvious egg-locking.

You only need to look at currently-dead players to know this, not deathcount. Khamm only needs to look at eggcount and currently-dead. Previous death count means almost nothing.

Ricez · May 2013

Florp_Incarnate said:

While I disagree with the OP, he raises an interesting question: what, if any value is there in a low death count?

The only time deaths really count for marines is the initial wave, or if you're getting severely spawn blocked and you die unnecessarily, or if you rambo - and by that I mean you basically run around achieving nothing. It's possible to go solo and actually achieve something, as long as you can aim. As long as you are doing something that gets you closer to more RTs (or the enemy team to less), then it doesn't matter if you die.

There are many situations where following the team goal is detrimental to your personal score, and playing for a good KDR is detrimental to the team goal.

|strofix| · May 2013

Desther said:
Kills may not have benefit but they don't detract anything. Showing deaths gives people a reason to single out and whine at bad players, and gives a reason for people to camp or play defensively and change their playstyle to a more selfish one because they don't want other people seeing that they died a bunch of times more than the rest of the team.

Showing kills incentivises killing other players. The best way to kill other players is to not die. There is no difference between showing deaths and showing kills. They have the exact same negative effect on players.

Ghosthree3 · May 2013

Desther said:

Ghosthree3 said:

Desther said:

Ghosthree3 said:

Yeah I hate doing this, but I have to agree with strofix. If deaths aren't worth showing, kills aren't either, they don't benefit the game in any way other than showing who's better than who. This is however an FPS game, so both are needed kthxbai.

Kills may not have benefit but they don't detract anything. Showing deaths gives people a reason to single out and whine at bad players, and gives a reason for people to camp or play defensively and change their playstyle to a more selfish one because they don't want other people seeing that they died a bunch of times more than the rest of the team.

Yes, lets all live in a magical land of pixies where being bad is ok and tolerated by everyone, this will surely result in a great experience by everyone.

Are you serious? This is a pvp game, being bad is relative to your opponent and yes, we need to move towards that world.

I do not want to live in a world where performing poorly is treated the same as performing well. That's an AWFUL idea and will lead to the collapse of society.

eliotmat · May 2013

Desther said:

eliotmat said:

There are costs associated with deaths.

For example:
1. Increased spawn time for teammates (ever get egg locked?)
2. Increased amount of time traveling to points-of-interest
3. Loss of weapons/lifeforms

How does knowing your death count have any bearing on these? If you are egglocked then comm can do something about it (Shift / IP) or advise all players to try and play more defensively for a while to try and stay alive. Personal death counts being visible doesn't affect this at all other than to give ammunition for scoreboard shamers.

If someone is running Rambo then the comm can advise them not to without seeing their deaths. Unless he only has a problem with Rambos when they fail and die more than the kill, in which case he should look into the future and find out if they should Rambo or not.

If someone loses their lifeform then they 100% know that they lost it. How is this related to everyone seeing your death count?

The deaths give some context to your battle efficiency.

In basketball, if I said I scored 8 points in a game, you'd be like, "Decent job man." If I said I scored 8 points, but also said I attempted 20 shots, you'd be like "Let someone else shoot. This dude sucks."

Ricez · May 2013

|strofix| said:

Desther said:
Kills may not have benefit but they don't detract anything. Showing deaths gives people a reason to single out and whine at bad players, and gives a reason for people to camp or play defensively and change their playstyle to a more selfish one because they don't want other people seeing that they died a bunch of times more than the rest of the team.

Showing kills incentivises killing other players. The best way to kill other players is to not die. There is no difference between showing deaths and showing kills. They have the exact same negative effect on players.

Showing score and kills incentivises working towards those goals (more points and more kills), they are the factors that make you win the game. Killing the enemy players/structures and taking the map is the goal.

"not getting killed" is generally not the main goal, it just encourages people to play in a personal-focused style. Just because you died does not mean you had no effect on the team goal. It shouldn't matter that you died, it matters that you made a step towards the team goal.

Desther · May 2013

eliotmat said:

Desther said:

eliotmat said:

There are costs associated with deaths.

For example:
1. Increased spawn time for teammates (ever get egg locked?)
2. Increased amount of time traveling to points-of-interest
3. Loss of weapons/lifeforms

How does knowing your death count have any bearing on these? If you are egglocked then comm can do something about it (Shift / IP) or advise all players to try and play more defensively for a while to try and stay alive. Personal death counts being visible doesn't affect this at all other than to give ammunition for scoreboard shamers.

If someone is running Rambo then the comm can advise them not to without seeing their deaths. Unless he only has a problem with Rambos when they fail and die more than the kill, in which case he should look into the future and find out if they should Rambo or not.

If someone loses their lifeform then they 100% know that they lost it. How is this related to everyone seeing your death count?

The deaths give some context to your battle efficiency.

In basketball, if I said I scored 8 points in a game, you'd be like, "Decent job man." If I said I scored 8 points, but also said I attempted 20 shots, you'd be like "Let someone else shoot. This dude sucks."

If someone is dying more than they are killing, they will know. They don't need a scoreboard telling them.

Ghosthree3 · May 2013

Are you suggesting deaths should be removed from every FPS because people shouldn't be seen for how they really are?

yuckfoo · May 2013

Florp_Incarnate said:

While I disagree with the OP, he raises an interesting question: what, if any value is there in a low death count? I always make the hike back to base to heal if I can, which takes valuable time. Would I be better off fighting a losing battle in order to do some small amount of damage to an enemy player? What is the most efficient practice here?

If you have 2 hp I see no reason why you shouldnt go back to heal, especially if your comm isnt med packing you and you are relatively close to an armory. I would say if you are running from Locker Rooms to heal in Terminal with 98 hp and 28 armor...then yeah...that sure isnt efficient.

Generally when I am close to death as a marine I usually like to run into areas with a group of marines to draw alien fire while the marines pick off the aliens safely from a distance.

male_fatalities · May 2013

lol at people arguing for deaths / kills to be removed.

Grow the fuck up, people will play the way they want regardless of digits in a scoreboard. If you think removing kd in the scoreboard is suddenly going to translate into better teamwork in pub fuck off. If you want teamwork, join a pug or a team and play some competitive games

And yes, KD does matter in a teamwork oriented game. It does not matter if you have the best teamwork in the world, if you are loosing every engagement and all your marines are 1-5 then you loose.

ChrisAUS · May 2013

Seems to me you aren't actually complaining about deaths being shown on the scoreboard, but more about players complaining you have some deaths up on the scoreboard.

If the server you are playing on is full of people bitching and moaning about your deaths then change server. If it's one or two people being idiots then ignore them.

If you actually are worried about people seeing your KD ratio to this extent then you probably need to ask yourself why you are playing the game in the first place?

Your personal amount of deaths don't matter at all if you are helping the team out.
eg : being first skulk to engage, being aggressive on alien RT's, baiting skulks for allies.

Your KD shouldn't matter to you if you are trying to play as a team.

edit: removing deaths won't stop people from whining. It will just change it form "Lol Chris you have 20 deaths" to "Lol Chris you only got 3 kills all round!". If you work as a team none of that matters. The fact you are talking about padding KDR means you obviously value your own personal KD over the teams performance.

Ricez · May 2013

ChrisAUS said:

Your personal amount of deaths don't matter at all if you are helping the team out.
eg : being first skulk to engage, being aggressive on alien RT's, baiting skulks for allies.

This is completely my point that I've been making in this thread yet people seem to think I'm somehow in here moaning.

As others have said, the scoreboard incentivises people so why are we using it to deincentivse teamwork when deaths mean so little in NS2?

Teamwork isn't about running behind the 7 players that all went in one direction at the start of the game, it's about going the other way with the 2 players where you're more likely to die. That doesn't show up on the scoreboard, only as a higher chance of deaths.

ritualsacrifice · May 2013

Plz explain how showing deaths "deincentivises" team play in any way. If you play on servers where everyone runs around in a ball going the same direction, you probably just need to play with people that know what the fuck they're doing. They aren't running the same direction cause they're afraid to die, they're running in the same direction because they're bad. There's a difference.

Why are deaths shown on the scoreboard?

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