Half-Life wasn't free, you're making it sound like NS1 was a free to play game when in fact you needed to have bought Half-Life before you can install and play it. Now if people pirated Half-Life that's a different story.
NS1 came out like 4 years after half life was released... 2 years after CS went retail, and 2 years after Day of Defeat was released as a mod. I'm pretty sure everyone and their mom's already owned half life by that point xD
Yeah, Half Life was the biggest thing to hit the gaming industry in a long time... and then CS came out and that was the next big thing. It would have been very difficult to find many gamers in 2002 who didn't own Half-Life.
Last time I checked NS1 was available on steam. No infestation, no power-nodes, no performance lag, no problem and probably no players.
I don't think NS1 vets actually make up that much of the ns2 current player count, I could be wrong. But I'd say the game Not being exactly like the original doesn't explain why it isn't as popular as It could be. Peoples opinions vary too much on the gameplay for that to be the cause. I personally prefer NS2, others (obviously) do not.
Performance on the other hand I can see being the main turn off, and really the most obvious reason why there isn't 20 million concurrent players at anyone time. I'm sure in the next few patches we will start to see improvements on that front. I'd like to think people would give the game a second chance if they sorted the performance issues out. Coupled with a nice new content patch, I guess they'd come back in droves.
NS1 came out like 4 years after half life was released... 2 years after CS went retail, and 2 years after Day of Defeat was released as a mod. I'm pretty sure everyone and their mom's already owned half life by that point xD
Which means all those players bought (payed money $$) Half-Life. As opposed to a free to play game which doesn't cost a dime.
went to a friend's house for dinner two nights ago - we were both massive gaming fiends back in the day and he casually asked what i am playing now. when i mentioned NS2 he said "that looks horrendously complicated". another gaming friend plays ns2 casually (he actually talked me into buying it) and won't play for more than an hour at a time because he's still a novice and "it has a merciless learning curve". by merciless i suggest he means the lack of patience for novice players even on green servers.
running a server requires a policy on skill level and rookie protection - and new players are the lifeblood of this game. if you expect all commanders to be pro, or indeed all players to play to a reasonable standard, and steamroll them if they don't, you will drive new players away and this wonderful community will die as a result. it's imperative that people feel ale to learn to play this game and not get mercilessly facerolled every time they try - as they will very quickly give up and there simply won't be a competitive scene.
Be careful of championing those names, Scardy. Not only is the crossover far below what I think would have been reasonably expected, but those paltry few who do play are not exactly happy with where everything's gone and I certainly think the question of alienation would need to be mulled over.
There's this sense of great open development but without any effective avenues of feedback. Competitive feedback was poorly distilled throughout development, forums were a jumble of insight-vs-crap you had to wade through and the "playtesters" were a hodgepodge of well-meaning, but largely awful, players who didn't always stick to their role of smashing bugs.
I would say the process has been more open in the sense of we know what's going on, rather than; we know the rationale of why things are going on and can make our case against it before it happens. The way I personally felt alienated was not because they didn't allow engagement, but because engagement was so poor around the areas I felt were important. This is absolutely UWE's prerogative of course, but just felt I needed to chime in as a counter-weight to the omg-UWE-so-open brigade.
Which means all those players bought (payed money $$) Half-Life. As opposed to a free to play game which doesn't cost a dime.
Except i never said "a free to play game".
I said "free mod".. Which it was.
And in no way does it give room for being disingenuous because the word "mod" traditionally refers to a modification of a paid game.
What I should've said was "Oh you mean that free mod, which was freely available to 20 million customers?"
:-D
Be careful of championing those names, Scardy. Not only is the crossover far below what I think would have been reasonably expected, but those paltry few who do play are not exactly happy with where everything's gone and I certainly think the question of alienation would need to be mulled over.
There's this sense of great open development but without any effective avenues of feedback. Competitive feedback was poorly distilled throughout development, forums were a jumble of insight-vs-crap you had to wade through and the "playtesters" were a hodgepodge of well-meaning, but largely awful, players who didn't always stick to their role of smashing bugs.
I would say the process has been more open in the sense of we know what's going on, rather than; we know the rationale of why things are going on and can make our case against it before it happens. The way I personally felt alienated was not because they didn't allow engagement, but because engagement was so poor around the areas I felt were important. This is absolutely UWE's prerogative of course, but just felt I needed to chime in as a counter-weight to the omg-UWE-so-open brigade.
Crossover is low because its been 10 years and you can't expect everyone who had the time to play endless hours of NS1 in their teens/twenties to be able to do so in their twenties/thirties. The pros of one era age and are replaced by others, it happens to every game/mod that has a sequel.
If the major complaint is that "they didn't agree/incorporate my feedback" rather than "they didn't listen to my feedback" then that strikes me as a pretty weak criticism of UWE's openness. UWE wouldn't and shouldn't design NS2 by committee, which means they'll need to make decisions that portions of the playerbase may dislike (myself included). I watched several NS1 vets effectively alienate themselves from the game by excessive focus on the parts they dislike. If that's how they want to operate, that's fine, but don't expect the rest of us to have much sympathy.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I'm sure many people wonder why their favourite independent bands aren't more popular when idiots like one direction are selling out stadia all over the world. Why is Glee more popular then Breaking Bad?
To me, these are the same phenomena - depth and complexity do not capture a mass market.
Half-Life wasn't free, you're making it sound like NS1 was a free to play game when in fact you needed to have bought Half-Life before you can install and play it. Now if people pirated Half-Life that's a different story.
Everybody bought half life. It's one of the most popular/highest regarded PC games of all time.
To me, these are the same phenomena - depth and complexity do not capture a mass market.
DotA has depth and complexity and so does Starcraft 2.
MOBAs are the least complex and most shallow genre of games around today.
I'm also inclined to say that, relative to other RTS titles, starcraft is a rather simplistic approach to the genre.
Both games seem complex and deep because they are played extremely competitively. However, high level competitive players could make even tiddly winks seem complex and deep. You need to think of it in the general case.
First there is the Point of it being very hard to get into and takes more than 50 hrs of gameplay before you start to really enjoy it.
Besides that there are two major drawbacks:
1) because it is so little fun to loose you have to stay "in shape" to enjoy it so you have to play alot. 2) Many rounds can be really frustrating, especially if you know your team lost form the getgo
So for people like me who work alot and come home at 7 or so p.m. it is a very frustrating experiance. If I join a game which is teamstacked and ends in 10 inute turteling I basically wasted half of my alone time of the day before I do sth. with my gf and go to bed. So the last weeks I very rarely play NS2 anymore just because it has a very bad Fun:Time ratio for people who can play max. 1 hr a day...
To me, these are the same phenomena - depth and complexity do not capture a mass market.
DotA has depth and complexity and so does Starcraft 2.
MOBAs are the least complex and most shallow genre of games around today.
I'm also inclined to say that, relative to other RTS titles, starcraft is a rather simplistic approach to the genre.
Both games seem complex and deep because they are played extremely competitively. However, high level competitive players could make even tiddly winks seem complex and deep. You need to think of it in the general case.
The general case for NS2 is Skulk vs LMG Marine. If you can't enjoy that then you won't enjoy the game very much, especially as a newbie who will lose their higher lifeforms and weapons very quickly.
The general case for NS2 is Skulk vs LMG Marine. If you can't enjoy that then you won't enjoy the game very much, especially as a newbie who will lose their higher lifeforms and weapons very quickly.
Compared to the typical FPS experience, Skulk gameplay is basically rocket science. You can probably quite easily compare it to the movement mechanics in Quake 3. The difference is that in Quake 3, the advanced movement mechanics were optional, in NS2 skulk gameplay makes it mandatory.
In turn, when you're fighting against something that is relative rocket science, it doesn't matter if you're playing from the tried and tested FPS perspective, your game changes as well, introducing complexity to the marine game as well.
The skulk vs LMG marine case is pretty complex. In fact, its probably the single most complex aspect of the entire game.
To me, these are the same phenomena - depth and complexity do not capture a mass market.
DotA has depth and complexity and so does Starcraft 2.
MOBAs are the least complex and most shallow genre of games around today.
The underlying idea of a MOBA is simple, the same way that the underlying idea of NS2 and almost every game is also simple, but the actual games are not.
The irrelevancies of these game comparisons are going to get you no where, especially as the genres you're comparing are so different.
I think we can see the main problems stem from the teams core objectives, ultimately ending up with a poor performing engine because they wanted to be the "next Valve" of modability - something of which I don't see any benefit, no one is actively creating anything for Spark as there are much better alternatives out there. In trying to make the game seem more deep, they ultimately went away from their path of simplifying the game mechanics to make it more accessible, and continued shoving the competitive scene in to the faces of people, when the game changes the way it plays week after week.
I think without NS2HD, this game would never have got any where near the sort of exposure or sales because it's really not that great a product. Kudos to NS2HD, he did a marketing and sales job to a great end result with lots of enthusiasm.
To me, these are the same phenomena - depth and complexity do not capture a mass market.
DotA has depth and complexity and so does Starcraft 2.
ahahaha click to move, 4 skills and mana.dat forest hide and seek game is not complex. pls try blc and come talk about mobas
Did you just shit talk Dota 2 and then reference Bloodline fucking Champions as a "real" alternative...not sure if balls or serious, either way prepare for the combined might of the valve defence force and dotards to shit all over you for slighting their jewel of the internet.
I think without NS2HD, this game would never have got any where near the sort of exposure or sales because it's really not that great a product. Kudos to NS2HD, he did a marketing and sales job to a great end result with lots of enthusiasm.
If we seriously talk about decreasing playercounts, I think we need to look at both player intake and ability to keep players playing the game.
I'm not sure how UWE has thought out their strategy in general, but NS2HD is probably the guy who gets people in. Meanwhile he isn't so much the guy who is going to keep people playing and attached to the game. NS2 doesn't have these day[9] kind of people who make players stick with the game over extended periods of time.
I don't know about the sales numbers and how they should be interpreted, but at least in my books NS2 has sold quite a lot for a small indie game with somewhat noticeable price tag. I feel NS2 has had more trouble keeping the players over longer periods of time than it has had selling the game to new customers.
Be careful of championing those names, Scardy. Not only is the crossover far below what I think would have been reasonably expected, but those paltry few who do play are not exactly happy with where everything's gone and I certainly think the question of alienation would need to be mulled over.
There's this sense of great open development but without any effective avenues of feedback. Competitive feedback was poorly distilled throughout development, forums were a jumble of insight-vs-crap you had to wade through and the "playtesters" were a hodgepodge of well-meaning, but largely awful, players who didn't always stick to their role of smashing bugs.
I would say the process has been more open in the sense of we know what's going on, rather than; we know the rationale of why things are going on and can make our case against it before it happens. The way I personally felt alienated was not because they didn't allow engagement, but because engagement was so poor around the areas I felt were important. This is absolutely UWE's prerogative of course, but just felt I needed to chime in as a counter-weight to the omg-UWE-so-open brigade.
Crossover is low because its been 10 years and you can't expect everyone who had the time to play endless hours of NS1 in their teens/twenties to be able to do so in their twenties/thirties. The pros of one era age and are replaced by others, it happens to every game/mod that has a sequel.
If the major complaint is that "they didn't agree/incorporate my feedback" rather than "they didn't listen to my feedback" then that strikes me as a pretty weak criticism of UWE's openness. UWE wouldn't and shouldn't design NS2 by committee, which means they'll need to make decisions that portions of the playerbase may dislike (myself included). I watched several NS1 vets effectively alienate themselves from the game by excessive focus on the parts they dislike. If that's how they want to operate, that's fine, but don't expect the rest of us to have much sympathy.
Regarding crossover: I'm not talking about those that hadn't played for years but those who were actively playing the game during NS2's development. I always knew it was going to be low, but not nearly as low as it has been considering the genuine hope and anticipation among even modern-day NS1ers.
I also think you're misinterpreting my complaint. Of course I'm disappointed with many decisions made (and this is bound to colour my feelings) but the bit that irks/alienates/whatever me is more than that. Of course I don't think there should be some NS2 committee but I think the process could have benefited from more channels of valued communication. I could talk at length about how I feel about the development but I know people disagree. Essentially, I think UWE has done a good job making people feel included without including them that much. Heck, we didn't even have playtesters, just bugsmashers!
At the end of the day, most of my criticisms are pretty pointless because UWE wants to profit and my approach probably wouldn't have made them nearly as much money. That doesn't stop me wanting a quality game rather than a popular one though.
I think without NS2HD, this game would never have got any where near the sort of exposure or sales because it's really not that great a product. Kudos to NS2HD, he did a marketing and sales job to a great end result with lots of enthusiasm.
If we seriously talk about decreasing playercounts, I think we need to look at both player intake and ability to keep players playing the game.
I'm not sure how UWE has thought out their strategy in general, but NS2HD is probably the guy who gets people in. Meanwhile he isn't so much the guy who is going to keep people playing and attached to the game. NS2 doesn't have these day[9] kind of people who make players stick with the game over extended periods of time.
I don't know about the sales numbers and how they should be interpreted, but at least in my books NS2 has sold quite a lot for a small indie game with somewhat noticeable price tag. I feel NS2 has had more trouble keeping the players over longer periods of time than it has had selling the game to new customers.
I agree, without those top competitive players that are around all the time, people are not captivated.
At the end of the day the object is to sell games. If your product is solid enough you can continually sell with DLC, expansions and sequels.
I for one look forward to the next UWE title, that is non-NS related and on a more sound footing as they will have learned from this process.
The current tutorials are not good. Some are simple match replay with a dude making a sloppy narration. Please replace these garbages.
Matchmaking. Altought it seems to pain some players you do have matchmaking and even automatch during play in a lot of games. Letting rookies play against comp players is quite stupid to say the least. You wonder why peoples are not interest in investinging their time in this amazing game? Because it's not their job to get better at it. That simple.
Now why do very good players have such an impact in game? 2 teams move forward. One player accumulate 3 to 5 times the number of kills any other can acheive. His team gain more ground. Inside 5 minutes you can figure out how most matches will end now. It's getting quite boring so I'm starting to play other games a little bit more everyday.
You ever played a game where everybody was of the same skill? It's not the same game. Nobody wished for more players so they would be able to blend in the crowd. Each kill counted. Every death was a challgenge to be answered in kind. Peoples stayed. That's the kind of experience that will build a strong community and incite peoples to suggest this game to their friends.
Tweadle said: That doesn't stop me wanting a quality game rather than a popular one though.
While some things in life that are popular involve no quality at all - I think in this case quality would have made this game more popular.
That or just more FPS :>
Totally agree from an ongoing perspective but flashy lights, big robots, monster-rhinos, infestation - pretty much all things I think are done poorly or offer no value - are the "wows" that make people buy the game in the first place.
Comments
I said "free mod".. Which it was.
And in no way does it give room for being disingenuous because the word "mod" traditionally refers to a modification of a paid game.
What I should've said was "Oh you mean that free mod, which was freely available to 20 million customers?"
:-D
Besides that there are two major drawbacks:
1) because it is so little fun to loose you have to stay "in shape" to enjoy it so you have to play alot.
2) Many rounds can be really frustrating, especially if you know your team lost form the getgo
So for people like me who work alot and come home at 7 or so p.m. it is a very frustrating experiance. If I join a game which is teamstacked and ends in 10 inute turteling I basically wasted half of my alone time of the day before I do sth. with my gf and go to bed. So the last weeks I very rarely play NS2 anymore just because it has a very bad Fun:Time ratio for people who can play max. 1 hr a day...
The underlying idea of a MOBA is simple, the same way that the underlying idea of NS2 and almost every game is also simple, but the actual games are not.
you sure know alot about games, right ?
Did you just shit talk Dota 2 and then reference Bloodline fucking Champions as a "real" alternative...not sure if balls or serious, either way prepare for the combined might of the valve defence force and dotards to shit all over you for slighting their jewel of the internet.
If we seriously talk about decreasing playercounts, I think we need to look at both player intake and ability to keep players playing the game.
I'm not sure how UWE has thought out their strategy in general, but NS2HD is probably the guy who gets people in. Meanwhile he isn't so much the guy who is going to keep people playing and attached to the game. NS2 doesn't have these day[9] kind of people who make players stick with the game over extended periods of time.
I don't know about the sales numbers and how they should be interpreted, but at least in my books NS2 has sold quite a lot for a small indie game with somewhat noticeable price tag. I feel NS2 has had more trouble keeping the players over longer periods of time than it has had selling the game to new customers.