Why isn't NS2 more popular?

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  • RicezRicez Join Date: 2013-04-13 Member: 184784Members Posts: 120 Fully active user
    Howser wrote: »
    All we can do is wait and see what impact these will have on the popularity of the game. I predict some serious growth before we see the game hit its peak yet!

    You can see the player peaks here: http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=4920&from=1349823600000&to=End+Time

    I really don't think any game can make a significant comeback unless it has a major overhaul - TF2 paid to free, arma2/dayZ.
  • HowserHowser UK Join Date: 2010-02-08 Member: 70488Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer Posts: 654 Advanced user
    but like I said there's a lot of game changing stuff in the works. That, when added up together does add up to major overhaul. It might take time but as the game gets better and better more people will come back and more people will buy the game. I have faith in the community and the future developments of the game and engine.
    Not all their cards are on the table but like I said before there's lots of stuff I know of (and I'm not very well informed); We've got combat mode getting some love, AT LEAST three new maps in the works, female marines, performance improvements, game-balance changes and god knows what else.
    Just stay positive and stay patient.
  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 405 Fully active user
    I really think performance has a lot to do with it. That, combined with a learning wall that most fps players slam into when they first load up the game makes for a pretty uninviting experience. I have introduced this game to about 6 friends from other games and only 2 of them actually got into it. They only made it through the learning wall by playing with me and the others cited performance as their reason for not playing.

    I see the posts about recommended specs and how you can get 30 fps. 30 fps is unacceptable for most pc gamers, period. NS gameplay attracts slightly less casual gamers, which also ups the expectation on framerates. In the RR, I have 200 fps, I join the game and its dropped to ~150-160. If the game goes for 20 minutes or so, I am now in the 80s and dropping fast. If the fight is taking place in certain parts of maps (hello south tram), I am in the 40s. These numbers don't stay stable either. 80 fps may be nice while I'm looking at the wall, but as soon as a lifeform or two enters the room its spiking all over the place - making aiming frustrating and sometimes impossible.

    I am on a 3770k @ 4.5ghz with a GTX 690.

    Anyway, I don't like to be too pessimistic. Honestly, a nice tight 1000 steady player community is pretty neat in its own way.
    My Stream! Usually playing NS2 or mapping for NS2. Sometimes other stuff.
    http://www.twitch.tv/shakertime
    aka nau
  • shonanshonan Join Date: 2013-01-28 Member: 182562Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 426
    I'd say performance is probably the biggest thing, since people that are actually interested in the game cant play it if they are having poor performance, and then they dont bother.
    Steam Lagshop :: Natural Selection 2
    http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse/?appid=4920
  • Metal ManMetal Man Join Date: 2011-11-13 Member: 132717Members Posts: 52
    Performance. There may be other issues with this game, but honestly I can't even analyze or put them in perspective because of the performance. So I can't say whether the skulks move too slow or I mistime my jumps or my aim is off, etc.. All I feel is this awfully jittery game. Elements of shooting, strategy and balance are hard to adjust when everyone is compensating for this horrid level of smoothness in an FPS. I have a top notch gaming rig except for my slightly sub-bar CPU (2.8 quad core i5). It isn't the best, but it isn't terrible. Having a below top-notch CPU is the bottleneck that turns this from decent to a hazy confusing mess of a game. To clarify, FPS games NEED TO BE SMOOTH TO SHOOT WHERE YOU AIM SO YOU CAN HIT THE STUFF YOU LOOK AT SO THE THINGS YOU SHOOT WILL DIE. This also applies to biting.

    "Get a better CPU." Yeah yeah, I get it. In the meantime I will continue playing any other computer game that has ever existed with no performance issue whatsoever. Currently that will be Bioshock Infinite on max settings.

    Oh and to provide some constructive comments, I feel very very little performance increase when switching from max to min settings. I realize this is because my GPU is handling the video quality perfectly regardless but damn I just don't get why there is such a small change to performance. Fix the CPU bottleneck of horror, fix the network issues or whatever causing this (because it clearly isn't the graphics) and then, honestly, this game will turn around so fast and become the game we all knew it would be. No more ENSL and Pax and tournament promotions and gorgeous updates. FIX THE PERFORMANCE MAYNE
    LocklearTweadleKenshiken
  • FarewelltoarmsFarewelltoarms gainesville fl Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183603Members Posts: 66 Fully active user
    One thing everyone keeps mentioning is performance. This issue is tied directly to the popularity of the 18+ player servers.

    I notice when during the rare times I can actually find a 16 player server, my framerate is usually in the 50 to 60 range.

    Most of the time though, I'm forced to play on the 18 player servers, and in some unfortunate instances, the 24 player servers. On the 24 player servers, my framerate is only 30 to 40, with frequent drops in the 20's as the game goes on.

    I just don't think the engine is designed for these high player counts. I don't think the gameplay mechanics are designed for it either (constant egg locking, mandatory shift hive).

    I still don't know why so many people despise 16 player vanilla servers. I vastly prefer them.
    bongofish
  • KenshikenKenshiken Join Date: 2013-02-01 Member: 182698Members Posts: 17
    edited May 2013
    One thing everyone keeps mentioning is performance. This issue is tied directly to the popularity of the 18+ player servers.

    I notice when during the rare times I can actually find a 16 player server, my framerate is usually in the 50 to 60 range.

    Most of the time though, I'm forced to play on the 18 player servers, and in some unfortunate instances, the 24 player servers. On the 24 player servers, my framerate is only 30 to 40, with frequent drops in the 20's as the game goes on.

    I just don't think the engine is designed for these high player counts. I don't think the gameplay mechanics are designed for it either (constant egg locking, mandatory shift hive)

    I still don't know why so many people despise 16 player vanilla servers. I vastly prefer them.
    I am started to play at 16\18\20 servers only right now, cuz more players for me seems like a butchery, or some sort of Doom 2 gameplay.  

    Metal Man wrote: »
    Performance. There may be other issues with this game, but honestly I can't even analyze or put them in perspective because of the performance. So I can't say whether the skulks move too slow or I mistime my jumps or my aim is off, etc.. All I feel is this awfully jittery game. Elements of shooting, strategy and balance are hard to adjust when everyone is compensating for this horrid level of smoothness in an FPS. I have a top notch gaming rig except for my slightly sub-bar CPU (2.8 quad core i5). It isn't the best, but it isn't terrible. Having a below top-notch CPU is the bottleneck that turns this from decent to a hazy confusing mess of a game. To clarify, FPS games NEED TO BE SMOOTH TO SHOOT WHERE YOU AIM SO YOU CAN HIT THE STUFF YOU LOOK AT SO THE THINGS YOU SHOOT WILL DIE. This also applies to biting.

    "Get a better CPU." Yeah yeah, I get it. In the meantime I will continue playing any other computer game that has ever existed with no performance issue whatsoever. Currently that will be Bioshock Infinite on max settings.

    Oh and to provide some constructive comments, I feel very very little performance increase when switching from max to min settings. I realize this is because my GPU is handling the video quality perfectly regardless but damn I just don't get why there is such a small change to performance. Fix the CPU bottleneck of horror, fix the network issues or whatever causing this (because it clearly isn't the graphics) and then, honestly, this game will turn around so fast and become the game we all knew it would be. No more ENSL and Pax and tournament promotions and gorgeous updates. FIX THE PERFORMANCE MAYNE

    I have a 3770K at 4800Ghz, MSI Power Edition 670 at 1300 Core, overall I have a 150+ FPS, but, in the mid and end game it's started to hunk down, in like every big fight with exos, jets, bile bombs, lerks and other stuff on the screen, it drop to 25+ FPS .. it's just horrible, and I really hate this lag spikes cuz I cant really aim at right spot, as an Alien it's not so vital, but as Marine, it's huge disadvantage. 

    Tweadle wrote: »
    How about we kill four birds with one stone by getting rid of power, infestation and overblown screen art assets- thereby improving gameplay, visibility and performance- thereby saving the game!!!!
    I am fully agree.

    .. and another one is NETCODE, I know that NS2 netcode similar to TF2, but, I played 600+ hours at TF2, lot's of scrims and pubs, and, never have such lag compensation, even when I have a 130+ ping at NA servers, there is really something wrong with netcode in NS2, it isn't intuitive at all.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 4,983 mod
    Kenshiken said:I am fully agree.

    .. and another one is NETCODE, I know that NS2 netcode similar to TF2, but, I played 600+ hours at TF2, lot's of scrims and pubs, and, never have such lag compensation, even when I have a 130+ ping at NA servers, there is really something wrong with netcode in NS2, it isn't intuitive at all.
    What you call 'netcode' problems are really just another form of the performance issue. I had a great example last night where I decided to try a new populated server I hadn't seen before. I had all the classic issues people ascribe to the 'netcode' or 'hitreg'; e.g. dying around corners, seeing bullet splashes without doing damage, point-blank shotgun shots doing only 40 damage, etc. I turned on net_stats and sure enough the tickrate was below 20 and I was having regular 50-100% choke spikes. The netcode/hitreg/lag compensation were all working fine but the server simply couldn't keep up with all the calculations it needed to do; hence magically vanishing bullets, rubberbanding kills, etc.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 1,337 Advanced user
    Yeah, NS2's performance is still a giant issue in the game atm. Turning my overclock off and bringing it down to 3.5 ghz on my i5 3570k really shows how low the fps gets for the player with a standard CPU.
    "If great visuals brings players in, great gameplay gets them to stay." - Valve
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    Kenshiken said:I am fully agree. <br />
    .. and another one is NETCODE, I know that NS2 netcode similar to TF2, but, I played 600+ hours at TF2, lot's of scrims and pubs, and, never have such lag compensation, even when I have a 130+ ping at NA servers, there is really something wrong with netcode in NS2, it isn't intuitive at all. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    What you call 'netcode' problems are really just another form of the performance issue. I had a great example last night where I decided to try a new populated server I hadn't seen before. I had all the classic issues people ascribe to the 'netcode' or 'hitreg'; e.g. dying around corners, seeing bullet splashes without doing damage, point-blank shotgun shots doing only 40 damage, etc. I turned on net_stats and sure enough the tickrate was below 20 and I was having regular 50-100% choke spikes. The netcode/hitreg/lag compensation were all working fine but the server simply couldn't keep up with all the calculations it needed to do; hence magically vanishing bullets, rubberbanding kills, etc.
    also can't forget that not only do aliens move quicker in this game than in TF2 (making 'shot behind the wall' more prominent), but their bodies are longer than you think. we're used to the eyes of our model being vertical with the rest of the body, not in the front if that makes sense. when you jump/fly behind a wall, they have more time to hit you than most other games (by hitting your mid body/legs). add that in with the already high lag interpolation and it looks incredibly stupid.
  • project_demonproject_demon Join Date: 2003-07-12 Member: 18103Members Posts: 325 Advanced user
    Tweadle said:
    How about we kill four birds with one stone by getting rid of power, infestation and overblown screen art assets- thereby improving gameplay, visibility and performance- thereby saving the game!!!!
    agreed, all I play now is combat, the classic game mode is simply not fun.
  • killer monkeykiller monkey Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70743Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 574 Advanced user
    I cant tell if you guys are serious about removing the infestation and stuff. Im going to assume your not
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    They are serious, but it will never happen.
    76561197996992409.png
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members Posts: 214
    edited May 2013
    I cant tell if you guys are serious about removing the infestation and stuff. Im going to assume your not

     
    infestation chews up 10-20 fps. It used to be like the creep in SC2, it would make aliens faster, heal faster, more carapace, slow marines. Now its almost purely cosmetic, its only function is to stop the alien commander from building structures inside marine bases, which could be replaced by another mechanic which wasnt such a resource hog.
  • ijustpwnedu96ijustpwnedu96 Join Date: 2013-01-27 Member: 182320Members Posts: 54 Fully active user
    My friend quit cause he complained his fps was very low :( So is mine, but I love the game too much to quit.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    I would drop this game faster than a stone falling in water if they removed infestation or powernodes.   It is part of the style of NS2 that I thoroughly enjoy.
    Howser
  • bekammkbekammk Join Date: 2013-01-14 Member: 179603Members Posts: 24 Fully active user
    When i play every time i play with brain dead players... Whats the point ?
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user
    edited May 2013
    Res wrote: »
    I would drop this game faster than a stone falling in water if they removed infestation or powernodes.   It is part of the style of NS2 that I thoroughly enjoy.

    That would be terrific.
    JektturtsmcgurtXaoDaveodeth
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,037
    edited May 2013
    We are extremely serious about removing infestation. Apart from the significant strain it puts on performances it's just a generally tedious game mechanic that only serves to limit strategy and force more predictable play. NS1 never had anything similar to infestation and it worked fine, in many ways better than NS2. 
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
    Jektturtsmcgurt
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members Posts: 1,028 Fully active user
    Infestation is game defining for me. It would be like removing the foliage from far cry games because it hogs processing power.
    Reskiller monkey
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited May 2013
    |strofix| said:
    Infestation is game defining for me. It would be like removing the foliage from far cry games because it hogs processing power.

    wholeheartedly agree.

     

    Also, the "holy art than thou" attitude of people who think they know everyone wants infestation/powernode removed is ridiculous.

  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user
    No, just the thought of more fps and both of you two departing gives me a bigger boner than the two of you currently have for one another. 

    Only short sighted and cruel individuals would think losing 20 fps to cysts and thus making thousands of people less inclined to play is a good price to pay for something that is of questionable value to the game. But keep telling yourselves that the lack of players is 100% due to there being insufficient tutorials and noob friendliness. This despite the fact that everyone here is stating that most of their mates aren't playing the game because the fps sucks, a situation that has marginally changed over the last few months. 
    male_fatalitiesBlarney_StoneXao
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited May 2013
    Scatter said:

    Only short sighted and cruel individuals would think losing 20 fps to cysts ....
     
     
    ...and thus making thousands of people less inclined to play is a good price to pay for something that is of questionable value to the game. But keep telling yourselves that the lack of players is 100% due to there being insufficient tutorials and noob friendliness. ......

    Don't play on a toaster then?

     

    While performance may be a part of the lack of retention of players, as I have said in another thread, I certainly don't think it is the biggest reason, nor the other things you mentioned.  People are fooling themselves if they think it is the biggest reason for lack of retention of players because "that's what their friend said".

     

  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members Posts: 1,028 Fully active user
    edited May 2013
    Scatter said:
    No, just the thought of more fps and both of you two departing gives me a bigger boner than the two of you currently have for one another. 

    Only short sighted and cruel individuals would think losing 20 fps to cysts and thus making thousands of people less inclined to play is a good price to pay for something that is of questionable value to the game. But keep telling yourselves that the lack of players is 100% due to there being insufficient tutorials and noob friendliness. This despite the fact that everyone here is stating that most of their mates aren't playing the game because the fps sucks, a situation that has marginally changed over the last few months. 



    Rather remove textures. I've always had a soft spot for grey surfaces. While we are at it, get rid of all shaders of any sort. We don't need lighting, shadows, any of that stuff. Just get rid of it. Also, I don't see why buildings need so many polygons. I would be able to differentiate two prisms of different size easily.

    Or wait... are your performance improving suggestions above everyone else's, because according to you, infestation is only detrimental to gameplay?
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
    just replace real-time infestation with something that spreads every tick...
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    It's not the actual infestation that's the problem, iirc it's the cysts checking themselves for connections 100 times a second (probably an exaggeration!) that kills it.
    76561197996992409.png
  • oldassgamersoldassgamers Join Date: 2011-02-02 Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 553 Fully active user
    I personally don't bother if we lose player count. Most of thew newcomers plays the game for short period of time and then stops playing. So having a peak of 7000, then 3500 and now around 1300 really won't mather for us. As long as the core players from the community still stays, the game will stay alive. We got alot of veterans who still are with the NS2 community and will continue staying till death do them apart

    And that my dear community is true passion. :)
    The abbreviation for Old Ass Gamers is OAG. OAG is something more then just a word, it makes us gamers understand the passion. The passion that you never want to stop playing video games. That age is just a myth and not even age will stop us.
    CrazyEddie
  • DarkflameQDarkflameQ Join Date: 2013-02-28 Member: 183451Members Posts: 327 Fully active user
    edited May 2013
    I think we all agree this game needs heavy optimisation still, the fact it requires an overclocked CPU just to run 24 players is proof of that, lol

    I'm pretty sure in 6 months time the game will be running a lot better :)

    Personally i don't get all the 20+ player server bashing, i love 24 player servers, if the game wasn't designed for so many players in mind why is there an ability to go up all the way to 32 players?

    And i don't think it's a coincidence that the latest map Descent is so much bigger than the previous maps.

    Even though i turn off shadows / bloom and other graphical features i consider to be pointless, i've never had an issue with FPS performance but then again i am on quite a powerful rig, 4.4ghz i7 3280, 7970 etc
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation Posts: 673 Fully active user
    Res said:
    I would drop this game faster than a stone falling in water if they removed infestation or powernodes.   It is part of the style of NS2 that I thoroughly enjoy.
    Jesus. please! Would you do that for the community!!!!
    NS1: Boost|. mf
    NS2: asc . mf-
    turtsmcgurtXao
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