Form a good Ol' fashioned mob and burn the unbelievers!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Natural Selection Forum, December 31, 2002. The holy wars begin...... Death to those who do not esteam Flayra as their [echo] Lord and Master!! [/Echo]
Ok, i am trying to explain it to you one last time (allthough roadtonowhere allready tried to explain it two times to you and several others in this thread as well, but you still do not seem to understand). Imagine aliens would take a specific spot in the map and suddenly marines could not drop ha&hmg anymore, they take another one and suddenly you are forced to stay lmg&la marine allthough you have thousends of rp left. That would suck, wouldn't it? Now that is what life as an alien is like. Let's call the starting hive of the aliens their "main base" as the main base of the marines. This means both teams have 1 base and now there are 2 hives to fight for. So obviously ns should be balanced in case each team manages to secure one additional hive (which means aliens have 2 hives). In this case aliens can evolve to fades without bilebomb and marines can run around in ha/hmg. So these two classes need to be balanced (and if you compare those two you will see that they are balanced quite good, maybe the oh so powerfull fade is even a bit underbalanced). Once one of the parties has captured two additional hives (so either marines have 2 or aliens have 3) this party is meant to get a great advantage to enable them to finish the game quickly. In case marines get two additional hives this means they can run around in ha/hmg while aliens only can run around as skulks and lerks without umbra. In case aliens get two additional hives this means marines can run around in ha/hmg while aliens can go onos and fades with bilebomb. So here the balance should be ha/hmg vs onos same chances as skulk vs ha/hmg. So onos is meant to have the same advantage over a ha/hmg marine as a ha/hmg marine has over a skulk. And now compare the times you killed a fully healed ha/hmg marine as a skulk 1vs1 with the times you killed a fully healed onos as a hmg/ha marine 1vs1 and you will see that if anything onos are quite underpowered. So for aliens, if you want to win, don't let marines get 2 hives. For marines, if you want to win, don't let aliens get 3 hives (2 additional ones). If not either ha/hmg marines have to face the overpowered onos or skulks have to face the overpowered ha/hmg marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--n00b101+Dec 31 2002, 06:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (n00b101 @ Dec 31 2002, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmm never tried but what would an Onos do when he enters a wallway full of mines ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> he'd lose like 5 hp <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
mines do almost nothing to a carapaced onos... i've casually walked thru dozens of them and taken far less damage than you'd think.
people need to stop whining and just <b>PTFG</b> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just read every post in this thread, and no one mentioned the reduced shotgun cost? 1 shotgun blast can take out a skulk at close range, and with a couple LMG squad mates, can be an incredibly powerful tool in the early to mid game.
Shotguns are too severly overlooked, and I think (I hope) that they'll see much more use once 1.04 comes out.
Whoever says it's balanced by the 3rd patch release is a moron. Even blizzard takes many, many patches before the game is balanced.
Aliens have an advantage, its obvious. No, I dont play stupid "clan games", I just play normal online games. Its harder to work together with a bunch of noobs, and therefore the marines always die.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fudo Style+Jan 1 2003, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fudo Style @ Jan 1 2003, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whoever says it's balanced by the 3rd patch release is a moron. Even blizzard takes many, many patches before the game is balanced.
Aliens have an advantage, its obvious. No, I dont play stupid "clan games", I just play normal online games. Its harder to work together with a bunch of noobs, and therefore the marines always die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do think NS needs tweaking to become entirely balanced, but i don't think aliens have or will have a significant advantage over the marines. If marines are n00bs and dont follow orders they'll lose in no time. On the other hand aliens can still win with a team of n00bs, as long as the gorge isn't one.
Beetlejuice's post pretty much covers it, if kharaa get 3 hives they are given a great advantage(the poor marines have FAILED if so). So are marines if they secure 2 hives(aliens have cocked up).
If the marines camp at their base at the beginning, an intial skulk rush is usually easily fought off(on pubbies you'll find most marines skip away from the others to play rambo). In my oppinion the teams are fairly balanced(unlike v 1.0 where marines could act like spacks and still win games =E). A winning marine team requires a very good comm tho. =P
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whoever says it's balanced by the 3rd patch release is a moron. Even blizzard takes many, many patches before the game is balanced.
Aliens have an advantage, its obvious. No, I dont play stupid "clan games", I just play normal online games. Its harder to work together with a bunch of noobs, and therefore the marines always die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an interesting point. I understand that various rush strategies are employed by marines in clan matches, which is why they are considered overpowered. On pubs, however, these are largely unused, giving a roughly 80% win rate in favour of the aliens, in my exp.
This patch will probably make clan matches more interesting, but it may be a nerf too far for pubs. We will have to wait and see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
I guess I only play on servers with great players. I have not seen, apart from about 4 or 5 exceptions, any marine strategy apart from phase rushing, in the last month. The more experienced players go comm and tell the noobs what to do, and normally, they do it. OTOH, aliens get screwed by a few retarded people who go gorge at the start in spite of the entire remainder of the team spamming "don't go gorge, we only need 1 or 2 max". 5 gorges = lose. At least the server admin kicks people who consistantly makes the teamplay experience unpleasant.
I'm one of those players who doesn't hop around servers every day finding a new one, I have a select few I play on constantly, and in those servers I see alot of skilled and unskilled players, I would enjoy this game more that instead of just "nerfing" the teams flarya goes and in the next patch upsets the balance again putting it harder again becuase one team is overpowering, then a few weeks later upping the other team, Just like in a real war its not in any way balanced, who even instated that the game was ment to be balanced, maybe the humans are ment to loose 80% of the matches. If you don't LIKE That theres always playing as aliens or *Gasp* a diffrent game/mod! Seriously people stop getting cramped up about the balance, tehre are a few issues that I had bothering me (such as the seige cannons range) when i'm desiging my map, but those will work out better now.
oh and btw on the server I play its usualy marines winning.
I don't see the point for the complaints about the phase gate 'nerf'...
Most phase gates are placed by marines at hive locations, and are almost always accompanied by a turret factory for a delay in the aliens' attack. Any phase gate placed in another area is being used to advance a large number of marines quickly to a location in order to deal massive damage to the alien team in one quick movement. Most of the time, that means a PG rush. Otherwise, it's to get a foothold to take out an alien hive, usually by siege in which case there's still a TF to defend it a bit. If the marines are on their toes, PGs take minimal damage because the aliens have to get through the marines there, and the turrets nearby in order to attack it.
Now for fades, if the fades can hit the PG, you placed it badly and it deserved to be killed.
The change was obviously made to stop the PG rush strat used in the majority of clan matches. These rushes make the game boring and uninteresting anyways so I really don't see the point in complaining.
I know this is a bit late in the thread....but I DO think marines have three levels of tiers, just as aliens do.
The first one is your basic marine, sure...can take on the skulks and gorges one on one...
the second one is NOT your HA/HMG marines at all, it is your upgraded marines with upgraded armour and LMG/pistol. This tier of marine CAN take out a fade one and one, and will do (I personally kill a fade I see 3 or 4 times out of 5, especially with the upgraded ammo). But put a couple of marines together to chase that fade and it won't be able to even blink to safety.
The third tier is your teched out marines with JP/nade launcher or HA/hmg combo's. They're the ones that can strike fear into fades and work well together to put an easy end to the onos that is foolish enough to go around alone.
People seem to assume that the upgrades to armour and ammo for the basic grunt don't constitute an advance in "level", and that you can only be a higher "tier" if you are physically given another piece of equipment by the commander :/
If 1 upgraded marine (what upgrade...let's say 2/2) could go toe to toe with a fade, that would be decent, but in the time it takes to kill a carapaced fade (even as a 3/2 marine), yur toasty. Their ROF is so high, even without adrenaline, marines just dont match up. Reduce the fade to 150/100 and halve the acid rocket damage (add that damage to the slash), halve the splash radius, and you would have a creature worth 44. Otherwise you essentially get special weapons galore when you go fade all of which are unbelievably leathal to not just single marines, but groups.
<!--QuoteBegin--[USCM]Lieutenant Ripley+Jan 1 2003, 06:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([USCM]Lieutenant Ripley @ Jan 1 2003, 06:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If 1 upgraded marine (what upgrade...let's say 2/2) could go toe to toe with a fade, that would be decent, but in the time it takes to kill a carapaced fade (even as a 3/2 marine), yur toasty. Their ROF is so high, even without adrenaline, marines just dont match up. Reduce the fade to 150/100 and halve the acid rocket damage (add that damage to the slash), halve the splash radius, and you would have a creature worth 44. Otherwise you essentially get special weapons galore when you go fade all of which are unbelievably leathal to not just single marines, but groups.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> lmao!!!!!!!
I actually think all of the listed changes will improve the game for all. One thing about the siege I would like to highlight. Could you imagine being marines on eclipse. Aliens have two hives (eclipse and comp core) and are working their way to maintainance. The commander has had two or three marines building a surprise base, just outside eclipse. He sweeps the hive and suddenly several sieges open fire on the hive, killing it in one hit.
Sorry, just had to share it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nutsacjac+Jan 2 2003, 10:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nutsacjac @ Jan 2 2003, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow, the NS team is already started to alienate its core community with questionable balance changes.
Other HL mods usually take twice as long.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rule #1: Dont bash the devs.
Rule #2: Don't make your opinions represent anyone else than you.
Core community. Feh. Who are you to so boldly state such a thing? My elected representative?
Now let's see what they have in store for us for 1.1 client update.
Alienating.... now that's a ballsy statement to come with! Except from the unusally high downtime for these boards, which is far from alienating, rather frustrating instead, I don't see the devs do any such thing. They might scare away rash impatient twitch-addicted Rambos, but let us hope those individuals will be replaced by new players, that do care for NS for what it is.
<!--QuoteBegin--porp+Jan 2 2003, 05:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (porp @ Jan 2 2003, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why don't you just let the 'core audience' decide for itself if it's feeling 'alienated'?
You don't speak for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I suppose you speak for everyone who plays NS?
It is clear that NS still need to do some balance changes and before we see how 1.04 is we shouldnt bash it...
Although some alien changes would be nice hehe <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I actually think that the Fade acid rocket should go back to how it was in 1.0 (less dmg, less RoF, etc). The siege will be fine with the "spotting" feature.
This problem comes up a lot in balancing, which is that the team tweaks more than 1 thing at once. I think they should leave the siege range alone (it's short enough already) and just keep the spotting thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--Windelkron+Jan 3 2003, 01:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Jan 3 2003, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think they should leave the siege range alone (it's short enough already) and just keep the spotting thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you dont mind the... exploits?... that marines can siege both Data Core Delta+Ventilation 3-C from processing in ns_hera, and that they can siege Engine Room hive in bast from their starting location(if the commie does it right)?
This is the first time in my life I feel like actually punching my monitor.
If you want to flame <i>anyone</i>, be that a two-post newbie, Windelkron, or the devs, prepare to get your butt served by me. These boards are supposed to be halfway civilized.
Comments
" If you cant BEAT them, JOIN them" <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
obviously not....
<img src='http://groups.yahoo.com/group/making_games/files/Unrelated/POTD2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Form a good Ol' fashioned mob and burn the unbelievers!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection Forum, December 31, 2002. The holy wars begin......
Death to those who do not esteam Flayra as their [echo] Lord and Master!! [/Echo]
K, I'm done with this joke. We can move on now.
Ok, i am trying to explain it to you one last time (allthough roadtonowhere allready tried to explain it two times to you and several others in this thread as well, but you still do not seem to understand). Imagine aliens would take a specific spot in the map and suddenly marines could not drop ha&hmg anymore, they take another one and suddenly you are forced to stay lmg&la marine allthough you have thousends of rp left. That would suck, wouldn't it? Now that is what life as an alien is like.
Let's call the starting hive of the aliens their "main base" as the main base of the marines. This means both teams have 1 base and now there are 2 hives to fight for. So obviously ns should be balanced in case each team manages to secure one additional hive (which means aliens have 2 hives). In this case aliens can evolve to fades without bilebomb and marines can run around in ha/hmg. So these two classes need to be balanced (and if you compare those two you will see that they are balanced quite good, maybe the oh so powerfull fade is even a bit underbalanced).
Once one of the parties has captured two additional hives (so either marines have 2 or aliens have 3) this party is meant to get a great advantage to enable them to finish the game quickly. In case marines get two additional hives this means they can run around in ha/hmg while aliens only can run around as skulks and lerks without umbra. In case aliens get two additional hives this means marines can run around in ha/hmg while aliens can go onos and fades with bilebomb. So here the balance should be ha/hmg vs onos same chances as skulk vs ha/hmg. So onos is meant to have the same advantage over a ha/hmg marine as a ha/hmg marine has over a skulk. And now compare the times you killed a fully healed ha/hmg marine as a skulk 1vs1 with the times you killed a fully healed onos as a hmg/ha marine 1vs1 and you will see that if anything onos are quite underpowered.
So for aliens, if you want to win, don't let marines get 2 hives. For marines, if you want to win, don't let aliens get 3 hives (2 additional ones). If not either ha/hmg marines have to face the overpowered onos or skulks have to face the overpowered ha/hmg marines.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he'd lose like 5 hp <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
mines do almost nothing to a carapaced onos... i've casually walked thru dozens of them and taken far less damage than you'd think.
people need to stop whining and just <b>PTFG</b> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Best.
Idea.
Ever.
Shotguns are too severly overlooked, and I think (I hope) that they'll see much more use once 1.04 comes out.
Aliens have an advantage, its obvious. No, I dont play stupid "clan games", I just play normal online games. Its harder to work together with a bunch of noobs, and therefore the marines always die.
Aliens have an advantage, its obvious. No, I dont play stupid "clan games", I just play normal online games. Its harder to work together with a bunch of noobs, and therefore the marines always die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do think NS needs tweaking to become entirely balanced, but i don't think aliens have or will have a significant advantage over the marines. If marines are n00bs and dont follow orders they'll lose in no time. On the other hand aliens can still win with a team of n00bs, as long as the gorge isn't one.
Beetlejuice's post pretty much covers it, if kharaa get 3 hives they are given a great advantage(the poor marines have FAILED if so). So are marines if they secure 2 hives(aliens have cocked up).
If the marines camp at their base at the beginning, an intial skulk rush is usually easily fought off(on pubbies you'll find most marines skip away from the others to play rambo). In my oppinion the teams are fairly balanced(unlike v 1.0 where marines could act like spacks and still win games =E). A winning marine team requires a very good comm tho. =P
Aliens have an advantage, its obvious. No, I dont play stupid "clan games", I just play normal online games. Its harder to work together with a bunch of noobs, and therefore the marines always die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an interesting point. I understand that various rush strategies are employed by marines in clan matches, which is why they are considered overpowered. On pubs, however, these are largely unused, giving a roughly 80% win rate in favour of the aliens, in my exp.
This patch will probably make clan matches more interesting, but it may be a nerf too far for pubs. We will have to wait and see <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
oh and btw on the server I play its usualy marines winning.
Most phase gates are placed by marines at hive locations, and are almost always accompanied by a turret factory for a delay in the aliens' attack. Any phase gate placed in another area is being used to advance a large number of marines quickly to a location in order to deal massive damage to the alien team in one quick movement. Most of the time, that means a PG rush. Otherwise, it's to get a foothold to take out an alien hive, usually by siege in which case there's still a TF to defend it a bit. If the marines are on their toes, PGs take minimal damage because the aliens have to get through the marines there, and the turrets nearby in order to attack it.
Now for fades, if the fades can hit the PG, you placed it badly and it deserved to be killed.
The change was obviously made to stop the PG rush strat used in the majority of clan matches. These rushes make the game boring and uninteresting anyways so I really don't see the point in complaining.
The first one is your basic marine, sure...can take on the skulks and gorges one on one...
the second one is NOT your HA/HMG marines at all, it is your upgraded marines with upgraded armour and LMG/pistol. This tier of marine CAN take out a fade one and one, and will do (I personally kill a fade I see 3 or 4 times out of 5, especially with the upgraded ammo). But put a couple of marines together to chase that fade and it won't be able to even blink to safety.
The third tier is your teched out marines with JP/nade launcher or HA/hmg combo's. They're the ones that can strike fear into fades and work well together to put an easy end to the onos that is foolish enough to go around alone.
People seem to assume that the upgrades to armour and ammo for the basic grunt don't constitute an advance in "level", and that you can only be a higher "tier" if you are physically given another piece of equipment by the commander :/
-Lee
lmao!!!!!!!
This cracked me up!
Sorry, just had to share it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You don't speak for me.
Other HL mods usually take twice as long.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rule #1: Dont bash the devs.
Rule #2: Don't make your opinions represent anyone else than you.
Core community. Feh. Who are you to so boldly state such a thing? My elected representative?
Now let's see what they have in store for us for 1.1 client update.
Alienating.... now that's a ballsy statement to come with! Except from the unusally high downtime for these boards, which is far from alienating, rather frustrating instead, I don't see the devs do any such thing. They might scare away rash impatient twitch-addicted Rambos, but let us hope those individuals will be replaced by new players, that do care for NS for what it is.
You don't speak for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I suppose you speak for everyone who plays NS?
Although some alien changes would be nice hehe <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This problem comes up a lot in balancing, which is that the team tweaks more than 1 thing at once. I think they should leave the siege range alone (it's short enough already) and just keep the spotting thing.
So you dont mind the... exploits?... that marines can siege both Data Core Delta+Ventilation 3-C from processing in ns_hera, and that they can siege Engine Room hive in bast from their starting location(if the commie does it right)?
If you want to flame <i>anyone</i>, be that a two-post newbie, Windelkron, or the devs, prepare to get your butt served by me. These boards are supposed to be halfway civilized.
<span style='color:red'>***Locked.*** </span>