Ns Is Fundamentally Flawed.
Nutsacjac
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9735Members
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9735Members
<div class="IPBDescription">why NS is extremely hard to balance.</div> As a preface, I've played NS since it cames out and is the most fun HL mod I've played, bar-none(CS included).
The problem with NS is that the ideologies of the 2 teams lends a distinct advantage to the Kharaa.
Of course both teams are at peak efficiency when working together, but Kharaa can do fairly well with everyone working on their own thing (i.e. skulks randomly going around, just trying to kill as many marines as humanly possible), because skulks are much more combat effective than marines.
Marines HAVE to work together to win against a halfway competent opponent, which sucks if you play on pub servers all the time, where everyone is doing their own thing and you have 6 marines all shouting "GIMME HA/HMG YOU NOOB!".
Number changes can't fix the few things that are wrong with NS. The whole system of which the game is played really tends to favor Kharaa overall, and it's too late in beta for the NS team to say "OK, you've played the game this way, now lets junk that and start over from scratch."
Looks like if you like Marines, and you play pubbies, sucks to be you, it looks like Marines will always get spanked by Kharaa.
The problem with NS is that the ideologies of the 2 teams lends a distinct advantage to the Kharaa.
Of course both teams are at peak efficiency when working together, but Kharaa can do fairly well with everyone working on their own thing (i.e. skulks randomly going around, just trying to kill as many marines as humanly possible), because skulks are much more combat effective than marines.
Marines HAVE to work together to win against a halfway competent opponent, which sucks if you play on pub servers all the time, where everyone is doing their own thing and you have 6 marines all shouting "GIMME HA/HMG YOU NOOB!".
Number changes can't fix the few things that are wrong with NS. The whole system of which the game is played really tends to favor Kharaa overall, and it's too late in beta for the NS team to say "OK, you've played the game this way, now lets junk that and start over from scratch."
Looks like if you like Marines, and you play pubbies, sucks to be you, it looks like Marines will always get spanked by Kharaa.
Comments
Once you lose the newbs, or get it so only 1-2 on a team are, and they're following vets, the game gets SO much better.
What are you saying, really?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem with NS is that the ideologies of the 2 teams lends a distinct advantage to the Kharaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Just, plain and simple, no. There are no ideologies of any of the two teams. You can play this game anyway you want to. This is strategy. You'd be suprised at how many times in history, kings and leaders have done things seemingly stupid, just to crush their opponents army. It's all about skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course both teams are at peak efficiency when working together, but Kharaa can do fairly well with everyone working on their own thing (i.e. skulks randomly going around, just trying to kill as many marines as humanly possible), because skulks are much more combat effective than marines.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is true that random skulk attacks on marines can be a very effective tactic, but not because skulks are better. The reason this works so well is that the building system for marines demands that one or more marines builds the structure, thus leaving him (them) defenseless for a short period of time. This tactic also works for the marines, not as well, but still, if a couple of 'em go gorge hunting they can do a fairly big amount of damage to the Kharaa.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines HAVE to work together to win against a halfway competent opponent, which sucks if you play on pub servers all the time, where everyone is doing their own thing and you have 6 marines all shouting "GIMME HA/HMG YOU NOOB!".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't HAVE to work together all the time. They HAVE to build the structures the commander places and they HAVE to defense them, but so does skulks (the def' bit).
It is true that CS'ers come to this game for a minute or two, whining about hmg/ha and then leaving, but that's how the gaming world works right now. You see that in all mods. Take this as a comfort: they won't stay for long.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Number changes can't fix the few things that are wrong with NS. The whole system of which the game is played really tends to favor Kharaa overall, and it's too late in beta for the NS team to say "OK, you've played the game this way, now lets junk that and start over from scratch."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing needs to be tweaked, really. I think the numbers are okay, as of 1.04 (except for my beloved welder, <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ). The things that are wrong with NS is "client-side", if you catch my drift...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Looks like if you like Marines, and you play pubbies, sucks to be you, it looks like Marines will always get spanked by Kharaa. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>...</b>
Simply. Not. True. It all comes down to the skill of the teams. Equal skill = close game.
Yes, natural selection is brutal on n00bs. A team of n00b marines really struggle and die vs n00b kharaa. On second thought, all do. n00bs as well as experienced players .And there is something "fundamentally" EASIER about kharaa. They work better independantly because of hive sight. They have easier map access due to vents. And they are faster.
I do know, that marines who has acquired Motion Tracking - and once patch 1.04 is out you will see this more since the MT bug should be fixed - those marines are doing better. Much better. It is no longer the same kind of suicide mission to run around the map, since you have advanced intelligence on your enemys movement. You can't know what it is, but it's moving an d you have your gun trained.
That's why we see these frantic scrambles to lock down 1 and hopefully 2 hives of the marines. They are not fighting the game on equal footing, or so they sense.
But be aware that marines spawn faster than kharaa. They are lethal at long range at start. Give them motion tracking and the odds grow significantly. So much that you can even start tapping res nozzles in competition with the kharaa. Since any marine can cap one as long as mander is near. Kharaa always need a gorge. And with MT, a single marine can patrol a map area and actually survive unless a huge gang of skulks charge him.
And If you play the same servers, you tend to get to know the lads better (or girls, who can tell). And marines and commanders mature, and play more coherent. Natural-selection is a hard game to master, it is definitely not for the twicht-part of the CS-crowd (those intolerable little **obscenity** I see hang out ath our local netcafé - they act horrible and they don't like NS thank goodness).
Think, for example, about the marines weaponry: Every weapon can be used to support another one.
LMGs can take out far away aliens for a group of HMG marines, Shotguns can cover the close distance for both, Grenade Launchers can be the most devastating weapon in the game if the wielders are being covered.
Yes, there are also teamwork-dependent alien abilities (p.e. Umbra), but unlike the marine stuff, they don't 'stack' as well for bigger groups - a group of Shotgunners, LMGers and HMGers gets even more efective than a group including only two kinds of weapon.
Another thing is the marine defense: While alien defense structures are pretty much never good enough to kep an attack at bay on their own and usually require multiple aliens to be present during a bigger assault, the marine defenses can be, provided that your turretplacement is good, automated much more. Keep maybe one marine back to deal with the occasional Fade hit & run, the rest of the team, a much bigger part than the alien side can spare, is free for the offense.
If you take a look at the statistics of clanplays, marines, which work together in that case, win far more often than aliens.
If you take a look at the statistics of clanplays, marines, which work together in that case, win far more often than aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where can I find such?
If you can aim and think at the same time, its not hard to look around a corner, blast an alien, and then move on.
Sure, another alien can attack you from behind while you're killing the hidden alien, but then, that would mean your dumb **obscenity** was out alone. Stupid.
Okay, I play NS on OptusNET
What i've noticed is that If you have a N00B comm, you've got a N00b team.
If the comm doesn't know that what he is doing isn't really helping then you'll all suck bad.
Anyways If you're on the Marines and the Comm sets you a Waypoint, whether or not you want to go it doesn't matter, just do it.
It demeens the point of having a commander if there is noone willing to be a commanded. And if you don't like the way he commands Rush into the CC next game!
And if you're an alien and you don't know what you're doing, find a Gorge and latch onto him for the game, like help him out and stuff.
What it all comes down to is the people on your team. Teamwork is a must in the game so stick to it and listen for instructions.
</span>
Yes, natural selection is brutal on n00bs. A team of n00b marines really struggle and die vs n00b kharaa. On second thought, all do. n00bs as well as experienced players .And there is something "fundamentally" EASIER about kharaa. They work better independantly because of hive sight. They have easier map access due to vents. And they are faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember when NS came out...for 2 weeks straight the Aliens got spanked left and right. There is a much steeper learning curve from 1 alien to another (IE Gorge and Lerk are totally different) let alone a marine with a gun. Being a noob on Alien is not nearly as easy as playing as a noob Marine, its the same set-up youve played 500 times before in every other FPS fer chrissakes. Map access is confusing for a noob and even a vet until you know the map. Having vents as a noob skulk didnt make leaning anything any easier, and hive sight isnt very helpfull if you dont know the map. Marines with 2-3 noobs on thier team are fine as long as the com isnt one of them. Having 2-3 noobs on Alien totaly screws the team because the inevitably all end up as Gorges.
The marines are dependant on well excercised troopers. The marine is EASY to play but HARD to master. The kharaa is at first HARD to play but amazingly EASY to master. The only time I see kharaa actually screw up if some clueless noob go gorge and just pedal around shooting spit at aliens. Gorges are difficult. The rest are farily straight forward.
The problem with NS is that the ideologies of the 2 teams lends a distinct advantage to the Kharaa.
Of course both teams are at peak efficiency when working together, but Kharaa can do fairly well with everyone working on their own thing (i.e. skulks randomly going around, just trying to kill as many marines as humanly possible), because skulks are much more combat effective than marines.
Marines HAVE to work together to win against a halfway competent opponent, which sucks if you play on pub servers all the time, where everyone is doing their own thing and you have 6 marines all shouting "GIMME HA/HMG YOU NOOB!".
Number changes can't fix the few things that are wrong with NS. The whole system of which the game is played really tends to favor Kharaa overall, and it's too late in beta for the NS team to say "OK, you've played the game this way, now lets junk that and start over from scratch."
Looks like if you like Marines, and you play pubbies, sucks to be you, it looks like Marines will always get spanked by Kharaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jeeze i hate people that stay stuff like this, you must go in the worst servers...
I when alien have often been defeated by a good commander, though sometimes you get the newbies, try and teach them, dont just think, gah newbies...
Just get them to follow you and cover you or something, then they will start helping other people at and before you know it, a group of players who work well.
Then you'll see how easy it is to beat up those Aliens with a good Commander and a good team of coherent Marines that doesn't drool on themselves when you give them a waypoint. Trust me, whoever up there said that an experienced team of Marines can't win against an experienced team of Aliens... isn't playing with experienced players at all. He's playing with really, <i>really</i> bad Marines. That's all it comes down to.
Beginner:
Marines will generally win. Brand new players to NS have an easier time running around with their guns than they do playing the alien side. Since the aliens don't work together at all, and they don't actively pursue a second hive, the marines generally have lots of time to plant turret farms (which new players can't get rid of) and research their tech.
Intermediate:
This is where I see most pub servers belonging to. Aliens will generally win here because commanders are weak and don't follow tried and true strategies. You also see a lot of hot head marines running around by themselves and not following orders. At this level of play, most players know that getting the second hive up means victory, and a single gorge with a brain will accomplish this, scoring the win for aliens.
Advanced:
This is where my clan's server has reached (and only very recently). We have a lot of regulars who are all very familar with the game. A decent commander, combined with marines who follow orders, means that the marines at least win their fair share of games.
Clan Matches:
The bottom line is marines are virtually unstoppable at this level of play. Marines win over 90% of the rounds easily.
Super Clans:
There are very few clans out there that can handle the marine rushing tactics. The clans that can are a serious cut above the rest.
That's so true it makes my eyes want to bleed. As of 1.03 the marine rush is incredibly strong and can be a challenge to stop if the team using it has good teamwork and individual skill. Few teams have stoped the TE rush. Whenever we tie a game its because we lost our alien round and we won our marine round. Marines win far more often in clan games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Advanced:
This is where my clan's server has reached (and only very recently). We have a lot of regulars who are all very familar with the game. A decent commander, combined with marines who follow orders, means that the marines at least win their fair share of games.
Clan Matches:
The bottom line is marines are virtually unstoppable at this level of play. Marines win over 90% of the rounds easily.
Super Clans:
There are very few clans out there that can handle the marine rushing tactics. The clans that can are a serious cut above the rest. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok if your pub is like that I REALLY want th ip. I've been hunting for an awsome pub and its good to hear one exists.
As for clan matches this is mostly true. TE has a very strong marine rush and it rarely is broken.
As for super clans. I wouldnt call them super. I would just say that they know what to do and they do it well. As for teams that can break a good marine rush TE, sYn, and possible 1 other who hasn't broken TE's rush but delayed it i think it was ReD. These are the only teams i've seen do it. In 1.03 it is quite a hard thing to do.
Yes our pub is like that, I see the same 10 - 15 players all night long, every single night. Our server has been up since the first night NS came out, and most of these players have been around since the first couple of days. Needless to say, I've found that they are generally at a much higher skill level than on other pubs (and I do play other places a decent amount as we have a few dead times when no one is on ours).
on another note i want to know who the top clans really are. As in my experience it goes sYn, TE, ReD, hS and after that i never noticed any difference in the teams. They all die pretty past. The other 3 teams, other than TE, all are something special. sYn whoops us quite nicely, ReD can prolonge our marine rush and if we don't play serious with them can beat us. hS nearly succesfully rushed us as marines and we barely didnt die. Which is great since we are fairly good at stoping the marine rush. If their are other great clans i never hear of them. We really need some sort of clan data base of all active clans, and who plays who. Going into league games soon it would be nice to know who your real competition is.
Then you'll see how easy it is to beat up those Aliens with a good Commander and a good team of coherent Marines that doesn't drool on themselves when you give them a waypoint. Trust me, whoever up there said that an experienced team of Marines can't win against an experienced team of Aliens... isn't playing with experienced players at all. He's playing with really, <i>really</i> bad Marines. That's all it comes down to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you take a look at the statistics of clanplays, marines, which work together in that case, win far more often than aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err, that was the general point. I dont have time and/or commitment to join a NS clan, so I have to take whatever the pub servers have to offer, which isn't much.
That's why I said Marines have trouble in PUBBIE servers. Way to interpret read information.
And playing with regulars isn't a real option, because my free time fluctuates so often.
"n00b" Kharaa may have an advantage early-game. But your "n00b" alien team, which has been running around as skulks and not correctly strategizing as gorges are dead meat once marines pull out heavy weapons and/or armor in mid-game.
Marine Pubber (seeing the acid rocket kill symbol): "omg tehy have Fades need HA/HMG NOW!!1!!!"
5 seconds later, when they don't get kittted with end-gmae equipment: "comm suxxxxx0rs, we've lost, let's F4 to rr"
Another 5 seconds later and the marines have about half of their team left, and truly cannot pull it back.
People don't seem to realise just how easy it can be to take a Fade out, even with LMG/Pistol.
The only reason Fades lay down the ownage like they do now is that as soon as they are around, marines cower in their spawn until they go to readyroom, leaving the remainder no option of breaking out.
In short, people who say marines have lost when Aliens get two hives are talking utter bull **obscenity**, they just need to pull their fingers out and get on with it.
Nano-Gridlock is about the only server I play on, which is public like only half the time. :\ Pretty much n00bless, even so.
The problem is, how often do you see this on pubbie servers? Answer, not very, if at all.
The problem is, how often do you see this on pubbie servers? Answer, not very, if at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, that players think they <i>have</i> to have HA/GL/HMG to combat anything the Kharaa have to offer, and besides maybe a Onos, it's just not true.