Babblers
Deadonstick
Join Date: 2013-04-17 Member: 184877Members
Join Date: 2013-04-17 Member: 184877Members
Babblers are a fun addition to the Gorge's arsenal since the gorgeous patch. However they seem to lack a bit in usefulness. The only way you can control them is through the pheromoneball that has a short range and is near-impossible to hit a moving marine with without getting shot to pieces. The damage the babblers do is far from great and they give your position away with their squealing.
Now I know that it is possible to attach Babblers to yourself or another life form to protect them, but I can't really see the use here either. The only lifeform you'd really want to protect is an Onos and considering how big an Onos is and how little Babblers it can carry its pretty much ineffective. Babblers have slightly less HP than an uncarapaced Skulk. Meaning that with the fire an Onos draws (for one most of the fire will go past the Babblers due to only about 15% of the Onos' body being covered) and second of all the unlucky Babbler who finds himself in the line of fire dying within half a second.
I think it's time for a change. Perhaps causing Babblers to simply raise the maximum armour of the lifeform in question. As for combat I'd say make Babblers a lot more agressive so that they really swarm Marines on sight, whether they are in direct line of sight or not. Make sure they are relentless, chase the opponent down and keep biting. Also maybe buff their damage a slight bit in the form of a lerk-style poison bite so that they can bypass some armour and retain usefulness in the lategame. Aswell as making the pheromoneball have a longer range and be easier to aim kind of like Spit (although not exactly like it obviously). Maybe also buff their lifespan a bit or give them a Xenocide-like ability when they die, damaging nearby enemies. This would mean that even though defensively the Babblers are still bad, offensively when attached to an Onos and dying due to the fire it draws the Babblers can do extra damage to things around the Onos.
Any thoughts?
Now I know that it is possible to attach Babblers to yourself or another life form to protect them, but I can't really see the use here either. The only lifeform you'd really want to protect is an Onos and considering how big an Onos is and how little Babblers it can carry its pretty much ineffective. Babblers have slightly less HP than an uncarapaced Skulk. Meaning that with the fire an Onos draws (for one most of the fire will go past the Babblers due to only about 15% of the Onos' body being covered) and second of all the unlucky Babbler who finds himself in the line of fire dying within half a second.
I think it's time for a change. Perhaps causing Babblers to simply raise the maximum armour of the lifeform in question. As for combat I'd say make Babblers a lot more agressive so that they really swarm Marines on sight, whether they are in direct line of sight or not. Make sure they are relentless, chase the opponent down and keep biting. Also maybe buff their damage a slight bit in the form of a lerk-style poison bite so that they can bypass some armour and retain usefulness in the lategame. Aswell as making the pheromoneball have a longer range and be easier to aim kind of like Spit (although not exactly like it obviously). Maybe also buff their lifespan a bit or give them a Xenocide-like ability when they die, damaging nearby enemies. This would mean that even though defensively the Babblers are still bad, offensively when attached to an Onos and dying due to the fire it draws the Babblers can do extra damage to things around the Onos.
Any thoughts?
Comments
Yeah, I got one:
Why should babblers be able to do this when babbler eggs only cost 1 pres?
So basically they should be able to be useful because all abilities should be, regardless of cost.
Most of the time when I launch a pheromone ball, each of the babblers will make one jump towards where the ball landed, but then they each come right back to me. It's frustrating to get them to obey me.
There have been some great ideas in previous discussions about babblers. For instance, someone suggested getting rid of the pheromone ball and just have the babblers go to where the gorge spits. This would definitely make targeting marines much more effective.
I do love some babblers, but wish babblers were more than just cute distractions/armor.
(sorry Decoy) lol
Personally my preference is that the armor buff be removed and they be improved accordingly to be useful for combat. However, it would also work to remove their combat capabilities entirely - that way you can change their AI to automatically latch on to the nearest available player without the Gorge having to figure out how to hit a skulk with a bait ball. Then there's no more ambiguity, Babblers are the Gorge's armor-buff ability and everybody knows it. In any case, right now they just aren't working IMO.
No, I mean why should babbler get a lerkpoison bite and add armor to a player for barely any cost. Parasite, spit, and bite are attacks and abilities for combat units. They are not separate entities like clogs or hydras. A gorge can have babblers on someone while spitting as well, but a lerk can't be poison biting and spiking at the same time.
Also, they can do only 1 thing at a time for FREE. A gorge would be spending 1-3 pres for a small unit that actually does something so its not unreasonable to allow the gorge to attack also. No one is saying it should be a 15 or 30 damage DoT.
What, why? Onos is the least of all lifeforms that would need babbler armor, and has the least benefit of it anyway. You don't see the use of adding protection to the other, more squishy lifeforms, including your own gorgie?
Change babblers if you want to make them more useful, but extra armor for any lifeform and especially a poison bite is a bit much for such a low cost unless those abilities are made very weak.
Imagine if babblers did their 10 damage over time in the same manner as a lerk bite. Now, instead of having some of their damage negated by armor, all of their damage is dealt to hp. And I can spawn 9 of these for only 3 pres. If you lowered the DoT to something like 5 or 7 babblers would basically be just as effective as they are now. How exactly should the poison bite be implemented? If it was 10 damage with DoT how much would be fair for 3 pres from a supposed support/defense class that isn't supposed to beat marines 1v1?
What? The Onos is not the least of all lifeforems to need babbler armor. The amount of concentrated fire that is put on the onos... you can't repel firepower of that magnitude.
I think babblers timing out is dumb. Let them get killed and you can't spawn more until they are killed. Let powernodes shock them while they attack if you want to prevent that kind of cheese.
"F*cking babblers!"
Babbler path-finding improvements
Increased speed (+20% ?)
pheromone ball acting more like gorge spit (faster travel speed, not affected by gravity)
faster egg build speed
These changes would allow easier & faster attachment to alien lifeforms (will still require aliens to stop briefly, as babblers will still move slower than other lifeforms)
The speed increase will also help during team pushes as they'll get up close to marines (soaking bullets) before the engagement is over, rather than 10 seconds after it's won or lost.
the current build time means a gorge needs to predict they'll be useful 5+ seconds beforehand, or have lifeforms sat around waiting for him to prepare, so could do with a boost.
The obvious downside to it though, is the inability to get babblers to attach to yourself as a gorge, though this could be solved by a right mouse button command (over-riding heal spray when pheromone ball is equipped) to order them to latch onto you.
We aren't saying they need to have those things specifically, but they need something. I'd be happy for the damage they did now with them being more able to harass and land hits. They shouldn't be a killing machine but they also shouldn't be something that marines laugh at and run past either.
Alternatively many people would be just as happy having them more effective at being used for armor. Again a speed boost should do that nicely. Just something.
I was personally fond of the alien mine idea. Allow them on walls and ceilings like hydras and when a marine gets to close out pop little babbler friends. Make them dangerous enough that you could expect 50 dmg (give or take) and enough harass for skulks to reinforce. I'm probably only fond of the idea for the thematic "Alien" egg scene effect.
My argument from the beginning was specifically about those things. Maybe if you read posts instead of viewing them as just words you might have noticed that.
I understand what you mean, but the onos already has the most HP/armor, it's protection is already adequate as it's designed to be the meat shield to begin with.
Meanwhile, the fade, lerk, gorge and skulk can go down pretty fast. So they benefit a lot more than an onos. That's why I said the onos is the least of all lifeforms to need babbler armor, because they can do without, while the other lifeforms are more significantly aided by the extra armor. It also doesn't make much sense to get babblers on the onos given it's size, it's too big to cover it.
In any case, I do agree they need to make them easier to use. And get rid of the timer.
Marines would have to prioritize Babblers in combat to avoid losing mobility, instead of killing the Gorge first and ignoring the Babblers altogether, like they seem to do now.
This would give Gorges a lot more control over combat flow, letting them drastically cut down on petty deaths, where one Marine chases the Gorge with impunity while the rest of the Alien team looks on - they could sacrifice Babblers to slow the Marine down and safely get away.
Alternatively, you could use them to aid teammates in combat - Marines would have to actually shoot Babblers before they get into melee range, lest they become a sitting duck for any aggressive lifeforms the Gorge brought along.
I apologize, I was trying to address other peoples posts at the same time, including the OP who was pretty clear that it was on off the cuff suggestion regarding the over arching goal of making babblers useful. So I guess if we are only addressing the last 30% of the OP's post then I still disagree that having an attack that you pay pres for should absolutely never have enhanced abilities. Perhaps if you addressed entire posts and didn't just view them as unconnected paragraphs you'd realize the discussion is about how to make babblers something worth spending pres on and not whether they should have Poison or slows or any other kind of non-sense. Allow me to rephrase my original argument:
Why should babblers be almost useless while still costing 1 pres? As other posts have shown there's plenty of justification for making them strong(er) when they cost money. What's your justification for leaving them underpowered while costing 1 pres?
In addition a load of babblers costs a minimum of 13 pres since you have to go gorge first although even I admit that is splitting hairs, but it emphasizes the actual costs behind an ability that's been added to the game that hasn't reached a useful place yet.
Only problem is, you rarely see people coordinate doing that.
Other than that, it's just best to put babblers on yourself as a gorge and not do anything else with them. ALTHOUGH, it is quite fun trolling the marines with alert messages by having a babbler or 2 attack an rt, then leaving and doing it to more buildings.
I know the discussion is about how to make babblers better, that's why I addressed the last part because that's where the suggestions are. I.e. the important part, since these are the changes people are proposing. I don't care about the rest of the post because all he is doing is explaining how useless babblers are, which nearly everyone including me agrees upon.
Just because I think the OP's suggestions are over the top doesn't mean I am automatically against changing babblers. I even said this earlier:
I'm definitely for severely altered Babbler AI. Maybe if balance permits it a small damage boost or part of their damage becoming poison rather than direct damage or a self-destruction mechanic resulting in a small Xenocide if they die.
Spit at surfaces to make your babblers follow you without needing to use sillyball(tm) ... going to try this today but does surface hits from a subsequent life form make your own babblers follow you? That would be cool, they obviusly follow your next lifeform.
Drop Babbler eggs. Seems simple but no babblers without them. Wait for 4 res if Gorging early on, drop some and still have enough for a plant. Drop babblers eggs around your map cycle routes. Feeling lonely as a Gorge? Hang on, there's that brood you dropped 3 mins ago, still scaring peeps out of System.
Vent Gorges are alot more usefull with Babblers, Overlook - Skylights vent on Veil is now pretty much OP as a Gorge.
Biggest question: If a life form has nitts, do I hit the nitts automatically or can I still aim for vital spots on the underlying entity?