ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Mart - If newb gorges don't spam them everywhere, 3 single Sensory chambers places in strategic locations are ACTUALLY useful just for the "enemy approaches" message...
Well, there have been a lot of good ideas thrown around in here. I won't bother advocating one or the other; I'll just let The Designer do his thing and do what he feels should be done.
But, if you guys haven't tried it recently, try 3 sensories first, just to renew that sense of pure exhilaration you get from being <b>totally frickin' cloaked</b>. We had a newbie gorge do it on ns_nothing the other day, and while everyone else cursed his name, I was secretly pleased. I then sat, invisible, with another skulk, right outside Marines Start, killing dozens after dozens of marines. After a while, when it became clear they were trying to take Cargo Bay, we cloaked there, too. We held them off at that hive for ages.
Right now with the D/M/S mantra going round and round, I feel like we've lost 1/3 of the game. Again, if you haven't recently, do 3 S first...and regain your youth.
Bleh, any chambers work fine for a first chamber. It's just the stupid mindset that people get in:
"OMG WTF d00d, no adren, Fades are teh suXX0r now!111"
Err, perhaps trying to blink in and claw the marines? I dunno, seems to work OK for me. Or ambush them with cloaking? Even easier. Hell, I see it all the time. A Fade and lerk team standing outside the Marine base acid rocketing it over and over again. You know, that umbra is effective when it goes up around buildings too... Why not go inside and use it? Quit having this must-acid-rocket thing in your head. Fades are actually more powerful melee. Hard to believe?
That's because no one tries. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, just yesterday on Nano-Gridlock, we tried Movement chamber as our first upgrade and it didn't go so bad at all. We did end up losing, but it was a great team of Marines and a great commander. We even almost had two hives up at one point. The Marines really weren't used to Celerity or Silence that early in the game. I dunno how many times I was completely in the open just running behind a Marine and he didn't turn around to shoot at me, it was rather funny. You don't really need Carapace or D-Chambers if the Marines never shoot at you. So all you would-be Gorges, try a new first chamber some time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Answer: When we are a 3-hive team of 5 onos, 3 fades and 2 lerks chomping the marine base. Cloaking is utterly useless by then, and never the fun addition it was meant to be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
amen. cloak is totally useless now. by the time you have it your so overpowered and rich you just run around killing everything with total disregard for stealth
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can build any tower you want at any time, as many as you want. However, the power level of the ability is limited by the number of hives you have, and the aliens can only choose to adapt in one way per hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know.. that might not be such a bad idea. It might solve the carapace lvl 3 fades 12 minutes into the game when marines are still trying to lock down the first hive in vain. maybe give the towers a certain effectiveness per hive too. in other words a dc chamber with one hive would heal far less health and far slower than a dc chamber with 3 hives.
that would also solve the people hiding in vents with 4 dc chambers and no hive since no hive = no heal.
Another thing I'd like to see (but doubt would ever happen) is a play mode or a kind of map where you dont have hives at all. I'm not entirely sure how it would work. Maybe a starship troopers (sc ums minigame) style map mode where marines start with nothing and aliens have a single spawn point.. and as time progresses they spawn faster, develop more abilities, and eventually would be given more choices to spawn as. If marines manage to defend a target for a set time they win. I can think of other scenarios..
anyways sorry I digress... what was the topic again...
There is another "problem" with the current chamber system that could be solved by letting gorges build what they want, while as long as limitations on evolving are set. If you have several hives, but lose one, you lose the ability to build a chamber type. If the one you lose is defense, then you can no longer build effective walls of lame, which is devastating in midgame, if you just lost the ability to fade. The already existing fades need a healing spot to take back the hive before the marines fortify it too much, and one that doesn't depend on having loads of gorges.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Dec 31 2002, 10:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Dec 31 2002, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->pft
closed minded fools
Sensory is a fine first chamber, you just need more co-operation on the alien teams then the usual "team work" that occurs now.
but, no one will ever try it, so I dont know why I waist my time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> fox, it was fun when you made sensory first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (read my sig) but the thing is many people get **obscenity** very easily because they aren't used to playing this way and don't know how/play well like it. people need to start using different tactics more often so people get used to playing like that. the problem isn't the game most of the times, it's the people.
<!--QuoteBegin--daveyboy+Dec 31 2002, 11:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (daveyboy @ Dec 31 2002, 11:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok how bout this.... it's kind of a spin off of the other idea mentioned....
Gorges can build as many towers of any kind as they want during the game but... the limitation is on the players. The players can only get one upgrade, it could be any kind (movement, sensory or defense) but while there is one hive they have to choose one and only one.
When the players dies they lose the upgrade (like usual) and then they have the opportunity to pick a new upgrade. That way players could freely choose their upgrade during the first hive (those that like sensory first etc....) and no one would flame the gorges cause they built "The WRONG" chamber first.
When the second hive came on then aliens could choose any 2 of 3 possible upgrade each life and so on.....
Lemme know if this is the same as was posted before.
Daveyboy
DOH I just read the 2 posts above.... NOBODY flame me please <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> sorry<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i LOVE that idea! sounds great!
Yes, the chamber limit is retarding alien gameplay. Would be much more entertaining if we could chose different upgrades early in game, but then of limited power. Carapace 3 skulks can be a bit unsettling too early, as well as totally invisible skulks
So the 1 upgrade level per hive is cool with me. Gorges can build what they want, but instead the aliens must be limited to what effect they upgrade with. One upgrade at a time for 1 hive, 2 for 2 hives and 3 for 3 hives.
Cloaking is too easily foiled by motion tracking, unless you're willing to wait in an area far from the marines for them to come at you. It's not very useful to duck around a corner and cloak if the marines are all looking at a big blue circle saying "I pity the foo who think he can hide!" And most good coms, upon hearing cries of "Cloaked skulks!", will research MT. Hell, MT should be up ASAP.
One problem everyone seems to be neglecting about the #of hives = level of upgrades idea is that cloaking would be even more useless then. lvl 1 cloak doesnt allow you to be fully cloaked thereby making it useless till 3rd hive again. Its only slightly harder to see a lvl 1 or lvl 2 cloaked guy.
That "the enemy approaches" thing is pretty worthless though. Lets say you have sensory chambers up at all three of your hives. All of a sudden you hear "the enemy approaches!". Okay, WHICH HIVE? It doesn't tell you.
Sensory's ability to track nearby units actually does have some range to it. I was able to put it against walls and we could see marines on the other side. However, it must not be paraciting them because as soon as those marines left the area we could not see them on hive sight anymore.
Personally, I'm hoping to see Sensorys enhanced to jam siege cannons. For example, place them under a hive and now the only way the marines are going to take down that hive is to walk in and do it manually and kill it, or perhaps remove the sensory chamber. This would also make them a neccessary addition to a good Wall Of Arse. It'd take a grenade launcher to get you past this wall, Mr. Marine!
Chambers are fine at the moment tbh, SC secondary abilities could be made slightly more effective for early game (you normaly know when Marines are approaching a hive anyway) but cloaking is still very useful early on, even if it is to make the Comm use RP's on motion tracking. Hell, if they have motion tracking, Aliens usually have hive 2 on the go, in which case go for a Fade/Scent of fear combo. With acid splash, you practically have your own motion tracking anyway. Personally I prefer movement first but the point is, it's horses for courses and it is possible to be effective with any chamber but people have the mindset of More armour=takes longer to get killed=better chance of getting frags <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Here's to linear thinking...
Defence chambers are usually built first because they heal offense chambers. In the early game, they're not so useful for upgrades. Gorge benefits from carapace, and lerk benefits from regeneration if he's doing long-range sniping. Skulks and regen? Too slow to be useful in battle. Redemption? Almost useless for a skulk that's cheap/free anyway. Carapace? Tiny increase in the amount of bullets to take you down. Defence is first because walls of lame need it, and that's the only sensible reason for it.
Movement or sensory are more useful for upgrades early. Faster skulks, silent skulks, invisible skulks. Adrenaline is less useful (you don't run out of it unless you're taking down big structures) and the other sensory upgrades aren't so good either (scent of fear or enhanced sight aren't necessary when most of the team has parasites).
But this isn't so relevant, as in the early game it's probably a good idea to avoid upgrading while you can, and give the gorge more to work with when you're at 33 res.
OK, relative to the normal health it surely increases, but the problem is that a skulk is very weak when shot, and it remains weak even if you double the bullet resistance. Usually, you get seen too soon and killed before you're in biting range, or you close to biting range before they have much opportunity to shoot. Carapace is mostly useful for those aliens that already have good hp without it, like gorges and fades.
I just... <i>like</i> cloaking. It's incredibly fun to use, and too many marines presume that their motion sensors are one hundred percent accurate. They lag slighty behind movement, which can make a big difference to that cloaked **obscenity** in the shadows. Oh, and marines always appear to forget many alien players crouch when cloaked. Even though they can "see" you if you stayed mobile long enough for the marker to catch up, it's hilarious when they empty their clip into the area just above your head, not realising you're just below their crosshair.
And scanner sweep <i>is</i> a cloak-camp killer, unless your cloakers are fast enough to notice the sweep and retreat. In which case, any nearby marine will splatter you. But without having marines present to examine the area, comm's will be in for a nasty surprise when the aliens return to the apparently empty room the moment the sweep is finished. I believe 1.04 plans to make the sweep cost 3, which might make a slight tactical difference there...
Although I much prefer having defence as the first chamber simply for its structure-healing abilities, I actually don't give a damn what order follows. I just loved cloaking as a Fade... and even with a decent comm and team, the marines always make mistakes.
Carapace is great for a skulk especially early on in game if not a little overpowered. Although you can only take twice as many bullets its a whole lot if you do like your supposed to and get close to enemy before they see you. Its definately the best skulk upgrade despite the common thought that 15 bullets isnt much more than 9 because carapace really helps as a skulk.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
ignot, the way many good and even only decent commanders build in the beginning is: IP (1-3 depending on # of players), Armory, Observatory (and immediate research of motion tracking if not a linux server), then PG, PG, PG (or PG, RT, TF, some Turrets at hive, then another PG to last hive. This works if the the aliens are too slow to get to the last hive before the marines can secure the current hive). What this means is usually MT within the first what...5 minutes? Definitely not enough time to get second hive up. Make carpace weaker, and make the defense chambers' healing abilities proportional to the number of hives, and people will start to choose other chambers first. Oh that and make the sensory chambers a tad more cheaper than they are now . that's help lots too. Don't forget MT only works if you MOVE. Stay still and only the scanner sweep will get you.
BTW you know how when the Observatory is up the comm sees red dots on his minimap which are the enemies? Well if an alien has cloaking does it affect whether the red dot appears or not?
I formed 2 theories after playing NS for about a week:
1. Play marines like you would play aliens. In a tactical sense, I don't mean splitting up and covering the whole map.
2. The only upgrades that really help, are those that give a direct improvement to frontal combat.
After a lot of playing, and bouncing around between ideas, it always came back to those 2. A good offense is the best defense, and it always comes down to being able to outfight the other team. Having motion tracking? great, but doensn't make the aliens die faster or you live longer. Turrets? fine, but they don't help you take a room. Cloaking? Love it, but it wont help you attack a marine base. regeneration? dandy. but it wont help your life expectancy nearly as much as carapace.
I'd love M chambers first, that is an acceptable first hive chamber. full silence can be deady if the marines don't haev MT, and if they do, it can still help get the drop on them. carapace is brute force. celerity is wild frenzy. learning to play with silence can be good practice for playing skulk with precision. bites that HIT, make no noise. so you know when your not hitting. and you wont live long if you don't make the kill. and it rewards you for making a clean kill by not alerting everyone else in the area that a skulk is biting up the place.
Comments
But, if you guys haven't tried it recently, try 3 sensories first, just to renew that sense of pure exhilaration you get from being <b>totally frickin' cloaked</b>. We had a newbie gorge do it on ns_nothing the other day, and while everyone else cursed his name, I was secretly pleased. I then sat, invisible, with another skulk, right outside Marines Start, killing dozens after dozens of marines. After a while, when it became clear they were trying to take Cargo Bay, we cloaked there, too. We held them off at that hive for ages.
Right now with the D/M/S mantra going round and round, I feel like we've lost 1/3 of the game. Again, if you haven't recently, do 3 S first...and regain your youth.
and the sensory does have a second ablility ..
"The enemy approches"
plays everytime a marine gets within range and displays them on the hive mind while they remain in range.
"OMG WTF d00d, no adren, Fades are teh suXX0r now!111"
Err, perhaps trying to blink in and claw the marines? I dunno, seems to work OK for me. Or ambush them with cloaking? Even easier. Hell, I see it all the time. A Fade and lerk team standing outside the Marine base acid rocketing it over and over again. You know, that umbra is effective when it goes up around buildings too... Why not go inside and use it? Quit having this must-acid-rocket thing in your head. Fades are actually more powerful melee. Hard to believe?
That's because no one tries. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, just yesterday on Nano-Gridlock, we tried Movement chamber as our first upgrade and it didn't go so bad at all. We did end up losing, but it was a great team of Marines and a great commander. We even almost had two hives up at one point. The Marines really weren't used to Celerity or Silence that early in the game. I dunno how many times I was completely in the open just running behind a Marine and he didn't turn around to shoot at me, it was rather funny. You don't really need Carapace or D-Chambers if the Marines never shoot at you. So all you would-be Gorges, try a new first chamber some time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
amen. cloak is totally useless now. by the time you have it your so overpowered and rich you just run around killing everything with total disregard for stealth
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can build any tower you want at any time, as many as you want. However, the power level of the ability is limited by the number of hives you have, and the aliens can only choose to adapt in one way per hive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know.. that might not be such a bad idea. It might solve the carapace lvl 3 fades 12 minutes into the game when marines are still trying to lock down the first hive in vain. maybe give the towers a certain effectiveness per hive too. in other words a dc chamber with one hive would heal far less health and far slower than a dc chamber with 3 hives.
that would also solve the people hiding in vents with 4 dc chambers and no hive since no hive = no heal.
Another thing I'd like to see (but doubt would ever happen) is a play mode or a kind of map where you dont have hives at all. I'm not entirely sure how it would work. Maybe a starship troopers (sc ums minigame) style map mode where marines start with nothing and aliens have a single spawn point.. and as time progresses they spawn faster, develop more abilities, and eventually would be given more choices to spawn as. If marines manage to defend a target for a set time they win. I can think of other scenarios..
anyways sorry I digress... what was the topic again...
oh yah CLOAKING RULES! and stuff.
closed minded fools
Sensory is a fine first chamber, you just need more co-operation on the alien teams then the usual "team work" that occurs now.
but, no one will ever try it, so I dont know why I waist my time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fox, it was fun when you made sensory first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (read my sig) but the thing is many people get **obscenity** very easily because they aren't used to playing this way and don't know how/play well like it. people need to start using different tactics more often so people get used to playing like that. the problem isn't the game most of the times, it's the people.
**obscenity**, I need to form a clan of entire non adren obsessives.
Gorges can build as many towers of any kind as they want during the game but... the limitation is on the players. The players can only get one upgrade, it could be any kind (movement, sensory or defense) but while there is one hive they have to choose one and only one.
When the players dies they lose the upgrade (like usual) and then they have the opportunity to pick a new upgrade. That way players could freely choose their upgrade during the first hive (those that like sensory first etc....) and no one would flame the gorges cause they built "The WRONG" chamber first.
When the second hive came on then aliens could choose any 2 of 3 possible upgrade each life and so on.....
Lemme know if this is the same as was posted before.
Daveyboy
DOH I just read the 2 posts above.... NOBODY flame me please <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> sorry<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i LOVE that idea! sounds great!
So the 1 upgrade level per hive is cool with me. Gorges can build what they want, but instead the aliens must be limited to what effect they upgrade with. One upgrade at a time for 1 hive, 2 for 2 hives and 3 for 3 hives.
Sensory's ability to track nearby units actually does have some range to it. I was able to put it against walls and we could see marines on the other side. However, it must not be paraciting them because as soon as those marines left the area we could not see them on hive sight anymore.
Personally, I'm hoping to see Sensorys enhanced to jam siege cannons. For example, place them under a hive and now the only way the marines are going to take down that hive is to walk in and do it manually and kill it, or perhaps remove the sensory chamber. This would also make them a neccessary addition to a good Wall Of Arse. It'd take a grenade launcher to get you past this wall, Mr. Marine!
Personally I prefer movement first but the point is, it's horses for courses and it is possible to be effective with any chamber but people have the mindset of More armour=takes longer to get killed=better chance of getting frags <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's to linear thinking...
Movement or sensory are more useful for upgrades early. Faster skulks, silent skulks, invisible skulks. Adrenaline is less useful (you don't run out of it unless you're taking down big structures) and the other sensory upgrades aren't so good either (scent of fear or enhanced sight aren't necessary when most of the team has parasites).
But this isn't so relevant, as in the early game it's probably a good idea to avoid upgrading while you can, and give the gorge more to work with when you're at 33 res.
It takes over TWICE as many rounds to kill a cara skulk as it does a vanilla one.
And scanner sweep <i>is</i> a cloak-camp killer, unless your cloakers are fast enough to notice the sweep and retreat. In which case, any nearby marine will splatter you. But without having marines present to examine the area, comm's will be in for a nasty surprise when the aliens return to the apparently empty room the moment the sweep is finished. I believe 1.04 plans to make the sweep cost 3, which might make a slight tactical difference there...
Although I much prefer having defence as the first chamber simply for its structure-healing abilities, I actually don't give a damn what order follows. I just loved cloaking as a Fade... and even with a decent comm and team, the marines always make mistakes.
BTW you know how when the Observatory is up the comm sees red dots on his minimap which are the enemies? Well if an alien has cloaking does it affect whether the red dot appears or not?
1. Play marines like you would play aliens. In a tactical sense, I don't mean splitting up and covering the whole map.
2. The only upgrades that really help, are those that give a direct improvement to frontal combat.
After a lot of playing, and bouncing around between ideas, it always came back to those 2. A good offense is the best defense, and it always comes down to being able to outfight the other team. Having motion tracking? great, but doensn't make the aliens die faster or you live longer. Turrets? fine, but they don't help you take a room. Cloaking? Love it, but it wont help you attack a marine base. regeneration? dandy. but it wont help your life expectancy nearly as much as carapace.
I'd love M chambers first, that is an acceptable first hive chamber. full silence can be deady if the marines don't haev MT, and if they do, it can still help get the drop on them. carapace is brute force. celerity is wild frenzy. learning to play with silence can be good practice for playing skulk with precision. bites that HIT, make no noise. so you know when your not hitting. and you wont live long if you don't make the kill. and it rewards you for making a clean kill by not alerting everyone else in the area that a skulk is biting up the place.