I definitely want to get some full games in on this. I don't get how an amazing mod like this doesn't get a lot more plays. I'm guessing it has more to do with the mod system than with how good the mod actually is... Do hope UWE doesn't base this mod's potential on how many servers it can fill up.
If even half of these changes go in then that will have already been the most amazing patch since the early beta days.
So what was the skill requirement to bhop? Learning not to hold W? You could bhop in a straight line with 0 mouse movement and still gain speed, just like the walljumping in the mod currently. You will gain speed quicker in the mod, and also the lack of a cap means you can hit the same speed ceiling, but it in no way requires 'less skill' than bhop did at an entry level, just certain aspects are a little too rewarding.
It amazing how people make arguments against a system that it sounds like they have never even tried, let alone explored for more than 10 minutes.
I'm amazed you're defending this skill-free-system. You literally hold W and spacebar and go really fast. It's the dumbest thing I've seen put forth yet as an idea for a "skill-based" movement system. Not only that but it feels HORRIBLY clunky and has no synergy with climbing walls (the special movement of skulks).
Word is you guys pushed through some strafe acceleration or something, I look forward to trying that out as well. Personally, since you are trying to implement something as close to bhop without calling it bhop, I wish you'd just put in a real version of bhop and call it a day. This half-way stuff just feels terrible to play.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
@GORGEous the tricky part is to both satisfy competitive players and people who "just want to play". i start to think that its impossible but im trying another attempt (now published in the mod).
- added supply limit for specific units (whip, crag, shade, shift, drifter, mac, arc, sentry, armory, roboticsfactory)
alien
- upgrade egg requires now a built whip
- increased drifter cost to 5 (was 3)
- reduce drifter cloud costs to 1 (was 2)
- experimental: crag, shade and shift can now move (slowly though and still take damage off infestation)
- shifts increase the movement speed of nearby crags and shades
- added echo harvester to shift
- whips will now root and unroot automatically
Fully mobile alien bases that can move the frontline up as you gain territory!
The new system is interesting... It feels like a weak bhop (w+a/d+turn mouse in direction of a/d that is pressed) that is used to maintain speed or slowly build speed. Wall-sphere-jumping is present and gives a large speed boost that can be maintained with bhopping in between walls.
The old style of wall jumping is still completely gone, though. It may be worth considering allowing some short time leeway (0.3s or so) like the old wall jump had where you maintain your momentum while jumping on the wall. You'd have the old wall jump with bhop (instead of jump sphere) in between wall jumps? If you touch a wall in the new system you lose all your speed unless you're immediately jumping off it.
I don't know. I do like it better than the previous system that I ranted about. In that one I felt like I had mastered it after a few minutes. The new one didn't feel so simple minded.
Also, the built in jump script seemed to have disappeared.
The jump script was described incorrectly, it allowed queued jumping (press and hold jump before you land, you will automatically jump when you land). You could not just hold jump however.
The new population limit is interesting. Both teams have a fixed cap of 200 population points right now. Some structures and AI units count towards the population so that you can only build a limited overall number of them. On the marine side is it 10 units per Armory, 15 per Robotics Factory (IIRC) and 20 units per MAC (probably also 20 or more per ARC). So you can probably assume one quarter of the available points to be already spent on structures in a normal play. Leaving you with 150 points that you can use for a combination of 7 ARCs/MACs and forward Armories, assuming you don't build any Sentries. So it seems to be a reasonable limit.
Didn't pay close attention to the alien side, but I think it's 10 population per Crag, Shift, Shade. For aliens it might get quite a lot closer with the points than for marines because aliens rely a lot on their support buildings and there are usually at least 2 Crags, 1 Shift and a Shade at a Hive since they can be ambushed at any time. With 10 per structure, that would already be more than half of the population spent on just fortifying Hives with the most basic stuff. Not even considering forward bases for attacks or to hold locations like Nanogrid, Drifter scouting and some Whip defense (and you need one Whip in any case to get tres eggs).
So for aliens does it probably need to be adjusted a bit, otherwise they will get hit too hard and their entire defense falls apart to that system. Considering how easily alien structures are still picked off.
I don't see the point of forcing any one max unit limits globally.
Any limits of buildings and the like should be per room unless per room doesn't work, like Drifters/Arcs/Macs. One number to fit small and large maps ends up forcing teams in restrictive ways. Building five whips to upgrade whip rush is near impossible currently and I don't see that as unhealthy play in any manner. Honestly, building limits shouldn't be an issue but for rare cases, like spamming armories and macs as Marines to grief everyone. Aliens, even if they spam buildings, the currently buffed flamethrower just ruins them.
- The new bunnyhop/walljump hybrid is interesting. I feel that the angle restriction on the walljumping is a bit harsh though, it can make it feel very finnicky depending on the geometry you're dealing with.
- I don't understand the purpose of a supply cap. What problem does this solve? It won't fix turtling, it seems to me that it just nerfs the structure spam of a rich team, thus making it more difficult for them to end the game.
- Whips aren't tech structures, it seems unintuitive for anything to have a Whip as a prerequisite. If you want to add a price gate to TRes lifeforms for some reason then it should just be a hive research IMO.
I'd rather have a better walljumping mechanic than the current bhop. I'm not against bhop - I loved it in the ns1 days - but the straight line bullet skulk just doesn't make sense for a unit that (in theory) should be about agility. It does nothing to aid the skulk in close quarters combat were the skulks movement really matters.
I'd rather the walljump mechanic was of real use, so you feel like there's a real reason to use it in combat to stay off the gound. Thats currently not the case, to me at least the skulk feels even less agile in this mod due to the lack of air control, which kills speed in combat if you need to change directions quickly.
Who ever said it was supposed to aid the skulk in close quarters combat? NS1's bunnyhopping sure never did.
Like them alien changes, will need to give the skulk movement a try and report back here!
I have to agree with others that I really don't understand the supply system addition. Is people spamming these structures and units a problem lategame? If so, wouldn't you agree it'd just be way better to provide more endgame t.res sinks so people don't just spam hundreds of whips and whatnot. Heck, even an individual hardcap on some of these like we have with drrifters would be a better approach but I really don't see why it's needed at all.
This is a pretty complex mechanism you have added which will only serve to confuse new commanders and further limit how people can play to be honest, with no clear benefits.
The supply cap might be a gameplay decision that is more in line with keeping server performance from dropping tbh. Only other reason would be a slight nerf to snowballing. Supply caps allow teams to catch up but not necessarily take the advantage.
For marines does the cap somewhat make sense on MACs and ARCs to prevent unstoppable ARC trains AND countless MACs auto-welding Exo trains. But then again is Bile Bomb a Biomass-2 ability now and thus researchable on one Hive, so aliens are theoretically always able to counter such pushes now.
There is no real need for the limit on structures. Sentries are already limited per room and can be dealt with using the Bile Bomb as well. The limit on Armories and Robotic Factories does not seem necessary either. There is no real threat that more than one Robotics Factory can pose, other than speeding up the build time of a full ARC rush if the team can afford it (for which they would have to hold like 90% of the map's RTs anyway). And Armories no longer heal armor, so the benefit of a forward Armory is more limited as well.
With only two units being actually worth affected by the cap, it would make more sense to simply keep the existing limit on MACs with those low numbers and then make an ARC cost like 2 MACs while still allowing to increase the cap by claiming more CCs. Or crank it up only by factor 10 and then have a MAC cost 10 and an ARC 15 population points.
On alien side it's basically the same: make the limit for Drifters and Whips only, in a 1:1 ratio. So aliens can still get up to 15 Whips on three Hives if they want to make such a rush.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
yes, the only reason for the supply cap is to prevent insane spam. if its too restrictive currently, i wouldnt mind to reduce the supply values for structures. but its a system that has 2 uses in most RTS games, spam prevention and it influences your strategies (at one point you are forced to think about unit compositions rather than about pure army size). at least for the purpose of spam prevention, this is a change that will make it pretty sure to vanilla ns2, though the values are not fixed yet.
Imagine not requiring sentry batteries anymore for sentries, or a limit per room. i can totally see that possible now with the supply cap, since you would sacrifice more than pure resources.
[…]
this is a change that will make it pretty sure to vanilla ns2, though the values are not fixed yet.
When can we expect the next patch where cool stuff from this mod is added to vanilla? >.>
Is there already an internal ranking of what features are more likely to be included at some point?
Is the Biomass system a good candidate (seeing how it even got supported with proper UI elements, so there must have been at least some consideration already)?
The new Gorge Tunnels?
The nerfed Exos?
The Armory armor nerf?
The Egg Hatch on the Hive and the spawn system scaling that helps with egglock on large servers?
The new Shade abilities?
The changed Drifters?
Quick question as I am at work and cannot jump in to check: Does the supply cap start at max or does it get incremented by tech point captures?
edit: Also I just noticed that ALL marine structures can be placed on infestation now rather than just the PG. Will infestation un-power a structure in order to keep power/infestation contra-mechanics? (can still be overridden by power surge though ofc)
Well, I can see its benefit for things like sentries (no more power batteries and restrictive placement thank god, may actually make sentries useful), whips, macs, drifters and ARCs but I do believe you're kind of pushing it by including armories, TFs, shades, shifts, crags, ... I mean, it feels pretty arbitrary to make it include some structures but not others. I love that crags/shifts/shades would be able to move though, that'd be essential either way for this system to work since aliens don't have a recycle. I guess I just never really felt like spamming these was a problem.
It also begs the question, what next when I hit my cap and have nothing else to spend t.res on as a commander? Do I just drop weapons and lifeforms forever? What if it restricts me from getting a third base up simply because I've built 10 sentries and 10 ARCs, etc. Sounds like it won't be easy to balance at any rate. Not to mention that sentries could still be spammed when marines are doing a last ditch main base defence, which brings us right back to the issue people were primarily having with sentries in the first place (and caused UWE to nerf them into the ground)
Also, what about applying a similar system to gorge hydras? (I.e team cap instead of player cap, maybe allow it or hydra strenght to scale with biomass)
Lastly, definitely hope there's a lot more things being considered for implementation, if not all .
edit: Also I just noticed that ALL marine structures can be placed on infestation now rather than just the PG. Will infestation un-power a structure in order to keep power/infestation contra-mechanics? (can still be overridden by power surge though ofc)
Would be cool if infestation blocked power nodes from being dropped instead of structures, sure would be a lot more intuitive. Power surge could still be there to allow ninjas of course. Heck, could even have infestation slowly eat away at built power nodes, that'd be amazing. (And a good way to finally make the power node mechanic less cumbersome for aliens to deal with)
Not to mention that sentries could still be spammed when marines are doing a last ditch main base defence, which brings us right back to the issue people were primarily having with sentries in the first place (and caused UWE to nerf them into the ground)
This is actually why I was curious if supply cap was incremented. Would allow sentires to stay decent without having THOUSANDS OF THEM during a single tech point turtle.
In regards to skulk movement, has a system like the following been tired before? And if not, could it be considered, or is it even possible?
My suggestion, rework the entire movement and jumping system for skulks and other wall clingers (lerk). I’ll just discuss skulk below, but I think the same 1st jump mechanics should apply to lerk (no changes to fade, gorge, or onos are suggested here).
The change I'm thinking of:
Skulk base movement speed while running on the ground, walls, or ceiling is about as fast as a marine’s sprint speed (or whatever it currently is in vanilla).
The biggest change should be to jumping mechanics. When you press the jump key as a Skulk, have the the game now apply a variable velocity based on the angle direction he is looking in and also based on the surface he is jumping from (explained below). Pressing jump should have the skulk perform a “jump-lunge” type of movement. Holding ‘w’ isn’t required to get the velocity as described below, but ‘w’ allows for control after you leave the surface. Basically jump functions like a variable lunge. You can snap change your momentum, but you have to master your aim to do so (raising skill ceiling imo), and the faster you are going the harder that is (try to master lunge biting and tell me it’s easy).
Below I will grade the class of jump with the numbers 1 through 5. A higher number (5) is a faster jump, a lower number (1) is a slower jump. Chaining jumps together from a higher number to either the same number or lower number will slightly decrease your current velocity with each subsequent jump until you reach the regular ground jump speed (but you can move faster than normal movement speed for awhile). It will decrease it in such a way that jumping from the highest number (5), should allow you to close the distance of a large room or 2 smaller rooms quickly. However, if you jump from a lower number (1) to a higher number (5), your jump speed will “reset” to the higher number’s jump speed.
With respect to flat horizontal ground, I’ll call 90 degrees looking straight up, 45 degrees looking exactly between up and forward, 0 degrees looking straight forward, -45 degrees looking exactly between forward and down, and -90 degrees looking straight down.
There are also 3 classifications of surfaces. Ground, Wall, Ceiling. These are based on the angle its plane is at and what side of the surface you are on. If the surface is 0 to 45 degrees and you are on the top = Ground; if the surface is 0 to 45 degrees and you are on the bottom = Ceiling; anything else can be considered = Wall.
Now that the explanations are out of the way, here is what I am envisioning.
If the skulk is on the “Ground”
All jumps are Grade 1. Jumping applies forward velocity equal to the standard run speed, with an additional upwards velocity maybe to get the alien at head level if he’s looking slightly upwards from the ground (as he normally would be in close distances). Also that’s how I’d envision a rabid alien dog trying to attack, it tries to pounce on you and go for the jugular!
If the skulk is on the “Wall”
Grade 2. If the skulk jumps pointing 90 to 45 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity a bit faster than his normal ground jump speed, and an additional slight upwards velocity.
Grade 3. If the skulk jumps pointing 45 to 0 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity a little faster than before. The skulk gets no extra upwards or downwards velocity.
Grade 4. If the skulk jumps pointing 0 to -45 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity a little bit lower than a lunge would. The skulk gets no extra upwards or downwards velocity.
Grade 5. If the skulk jumps pointing -45 to -90 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity almost the same or even equal speed (with celerity) as a as a lunge would. A slight downwards velocity is applied.
And finally if the skulk is on the “Ceiling”
Grade 5. All jumps behave the same as the grade 5, -45 to -90 degree “Wall” jump (lunge speed velocity applies in direction you are facing). A slight downwards velocity is applied.
I guess 1 final note.
If the skulk jumps looking into the “Ground” or “Wall” he should slide off of it with no penalty applied to maintain forward momentum (beyond the slightly decreased speed if going from higher to lower grade rule). However friction should be applied after maybe half a second to decelerate you.
If the skulk jumps looking into the “Ceiling”, I’m not really sure how that should be handled, though I think he should be accelerated forward in whatever direction he is facing still, and probably slide along the surface a bit longer? Have friction applied maybe a second later? Idk that one is a bit tricky to envision.
So in conclusion, I think this would encourage skulks to use the walls more to lunge at maries for an attack. You would not have to wait in ambush all the time since you could lunge from the ceiling, and chain jump on the wall into a pack of marines without loosing too much speed, and be almost as fast as a lunge. The lunge research would still be useful since you can’t initiate lunge speed from the ground or if you are climbing up a wall. It’s probably pretty complex to program, but I think the mechanic would be intuitive and quick to pick up, while also providing a high skill ceiling to control it and get the most out of it.
Marine camping behind a door? Climb up a wall then do a -80 degree wall jump to the door, chain jump off the floor through the door to the next room, chain jump into the marine’s face, profit.
The current mechanics of jumping on a wall in any direction, and chaining together wall jumps to increase speed while not gaining or losing any vertical distance just seems stupid to me lol. How would that even work in reality? I know this is a game, but come on… Gravity should effect everything imo.
Something simple which might be worth trying out unless hard to implement:
Killing an rt damages the next/nearest power-node by ~50%, so aliens have to give up less time chumping it (which I feel is a very boing/frustrating job)
Something simple which might be worth trying out unless hard to implement:
Killing an rt damages the next/nearest power-node by ~50%, so aliens have to give up less time chumping it (which I feel is a very boing/frustrating job)
Let's see first how Bile Bomb on first Hive plays out (Battle Gorges becomes more viable during early game harassment) before coming up with such arbitrary stuff.
Besides that nobody forces you to chomp down the power after taking out the RT. If you consider it a worthwhile investment of your time to prevent marines from getting that RT up again quickly, chomp on it. Otherwise ignore it and only go for it if you have a pack of 3 or more Skuks who can take it down quickly.
Something else, though: how about adding some air control to Babblers? Right now it's dead easy for marines to dodge them. They don't even hit me if I actually want them to do. So allowing them to correct their jump a bit midair towards their target would probably go a long way to make them somewhat viable in combat.
- reduced ARC build time from 10 to 7
- reduced robotics factory upgrade time from 40 to 20
- reduced ARC movement speed by 50%
- all marines structures can now be build on infestation
alien
- Drifters can now be created during the hive is researching
Infestation blocking marine structures is already the only reason anybody ever kills cysts. Removing that isn't much different from removing infestation entirely IMO. Infestation should be threatening to marines one way or another, otherwise cysts are simply noob bait.
Sorry if this has been suggested but what about supply limit being based on built rts. That way the more map control you have the more you can make and deny your enemy. Might help.the 1 rt turtle.
Maybe make infestation damage the armor of structures on it. So structures build on infestation start with 0 armor and can't be repaired to full armor until the actual infestation is destroyed. So if you go for that kind of ninja phase gate, it's going to be very vulnerable at first.
Infestation blocking marine structures is already the only reason anybody ever kills cysts. Removing that isn't much different from removing infestation entirely IMO. Infestation should be threatening to marines one way or another, otherwise cysts are simply noob bait.
Yea, why not let infestation block powernodes being built and very slowly eat at built ones their hp? Definitely would be more intuitive than blocking structures ever was.
Maybe make infestation damage the armor of structures on it. So structures build on infestation start with 0 armor and can't be repaired to full armor until the actual infestation is destroyed. So if you go for that kind of ninja phase gate, it's going to be very vulnerable at first.
This sounds like a good idea too
Either way, infestation needs to have a purpose other than showing alien territory and being an additional t.res sink else I agree you may as well just get rid of it entirely. Ideally it needs to 'enforce' alien map control somehow, either by obstructing marine map control from taking place until it's removed or at the very least make said marine map control less effective.
Sorry if this has been suggested but what about supply limit being based on built rts. That way the more map control you have the more you can make and deny your enemy. Might help.the 1 rt turtle.
I like this idea, would be a sensible way to prevent people from just farming turrets on 1 RT at least. Or tie it to TPs.
Yeah, rather to TPs than RTs. You can lose RTs pretty quickly, despite being on 3 Hives. Losing your foothold on external resource locations does not mean that you suddenly have less territory to defend.
Gives more importance to rts but also improves the complexity of 1 base 3 rts or just 1 and 1. 3 hives is pretty easy to attain on 5 tp maps and marines have no reason for a third. Everyone needs rts and the more the better.
Plus the scaling would be equal across the board. Tps would havr to be staggered due to 3 hive 2CC max tech.
Comments
If even half of these changes go in then that will have already been the most amazing patch since the early beta days.
I'm amazed you're defending this skill-free-system. You literally hold W and spacebar and go really fast. It's the dumbest thing I've seen put forth yet as an idea for a "skill-based" movement system. Not only that but it feels HORRIBLY clunky and has no synergy with climbing walls (the special movement of skulks).
Word is you guys pushed through some strafe acceleration or something, I look forward to trying that out as well. Personally, since you are trying to implement something as close to bhop without calling it bhop, I wish you'd just put in a real version of bhop and call it a day. This half-way stuff just feels terrible to play.
I made it public and I will start to freshen it up.
On a side note, the new Slulk movement is worse than vanilla NS2.
Fully mobile alien bases that can move the frontline up as you gain territory!
The old style of wall jumping is still completely gone, though. It may be worth considering allowing some short time leeway (0.3s or so) like the old wall jump had where you maintain your momentum while jumping on the wall. You'd have the old wall jump with bhop (instead of jump sphere) in between wall jumps? If you touch a wall in the new system you lose all your speed unless you're immediately jumping off it.
I don't know. I do like it better than the previous system that I ranted about. In that one I felt like I had mastered it after a few minutes. The new one didn't feel so simple minded.
Also, the built in jump script seemed to have disappeared.
Didn't pay close attention to the alien side, but I think it's 10 population per Crag, Shift, Shade. For aliens it might get quite a lot closer with the points than for marines because aliens rely a lot on their support buildings and there are usually at least 2 Crags, 1 Shift and a Shade at a Hive since they can be ambushed at any time. With 10 per structure, that would already be more than half of the population spent on just fortifying Hives with the most basic stuff. Not even considering forward bases for attacks or to hold locations like Nanogrid, Drifter scouting and some Whip defense (and you need one Whip in any case to get tres eggs).
So for aliens does it probably need to be adjusted a bit, otherwise they will get hit too hard and their entire defense falls apart to that system. Considering how easily alien structures are still picked off.
Any limits of buildings and the like should be per room unless per room doesn't work, like Drifters/Arcs/Macs. One number to fit small and large maps ends up forcing teams in restrictive ways. Building five whips to upgrade whip rush is near impossible currently and I don't see that as unhealthy play in any manner. Honestly, building limits shouldn't be an issue but for rare cases, like spamming armories and macs as Marines to grief everyone. Aliens, even if they spam buildings, the currently buffed flamethrower just ruins them.
I hit it the other day.
- I don't understand the purpose of a supply cap. What problem does this solve? It won't fix turtling, it seems to me that it just nerfs the structure spam of a rich team, thus making it more difficult for them to end the game.
- Whips aren't tech structures, it seems unintuitive for anything to have a Whip as a prerequisite. If you want to add a price gate to TRes lifeforms for some reason then it should just be a hive research IMO.
Who ever said it was supposed to aid the skulk in close quarters combat? NS1's bunnyhopping sure never did.
I have to agree with others that I really don't understand the supply system addition. Is people spamming these structures and units a problem lategame? If so, wouldn't you agree it'd just be way better to provide more endgame t.res sinks so people don't just spam hundreds of whips and whatnot. Heck, even an individual hardcap on some of these like we have with drrifters would be a better approach but I really don't see why it's needed at all.
This is a pretty complex mechanism you have added which will only serve to confuse new commanders and further limit how people can play to be honest, with no clear benefits.
There is no real need for the limit on structures. Sentries are already limited per room and can be dealt with using the Bile Bomb as well. The limit on Armories and Robotic Factories does not seem necessary either. There is no real threat that more than one Robotics Factory can pose, other than speeding up the build time of a full ARC rush if the team can afford it (for which they would have to hold like 90% of the map's RTs anyway). And Armories no longer heal armor, so the benefit of a forward Armory is more limited as well.
With only two units being actually worth affected by the cap, it would make more sense to simply keep the existing limit on MACs with those low numbers and then make an ARC cost like 2 MACs while still allowing to increase the cap by claiming more CCs. Or crank it up only by factor 10 and then have a MAC cost 10 and an ARC 15 population points.
On alien side it's basically the same: make the limit for Drifters and Whips only, in a 1:1 ratio. So aliens can still get up to 15 Whips on three Hives if they want to make such a rush.
Imagine not requiring sentry batteries anymore for sentries, or a limit per room. i can totally see that possible now with the supply cap, since you would sacrifice more than pure resources.
When can we expect the next patch where cool stuff from this mod is added to vanilla? >.>
Is there already an internal ranking of what features are more likely to be included at some point?
Is the Biomass system a good candidate (seeing how it even got supported with proper UI elements, so there must have been at least some consideration already)?
The new Gorge Tunnels?
The nerfed Exos?
The Armory armor nerf?
The Egg Hatch on the Hive and the spawn system scaling that helps with egglock on large servers?
The new Shade abilities?
The changed Drifters?
edit: Also I just noticed that ALL marine structures can be placed on infestation now rather than just the PG. Will infestation un-power a structure in order to keep power/infestation contra-mechanics? (can still be overridden by power surge though ofc)
It also begs the question, what next when I hit my cap and have nothing else to spend t.res on as a commander? Do I just drop weapons and lifeforms forever? What if it restricts me from getting a third base up simply because I've built 10 sentries and 10 ARCs, etc. Sounds like it won't be easy to balance at any rate. Not to mention that sentries could still be spammed when marines are doing a last ditch main base defence, which brings us right back to the issue people were primarily having with sentries in the first place (and caused UWE to nerf them into the ground)
Also, what about applying a similar system to gorge hydras? (I.e team cap instead of player cap, maybe allow it or hydra strenght to scale with biomass)
Lastly, definitely hope there's a lot more things being considered for implementation, if not all
Would be cool if infestation blocked power nodes from being dropped instead of structures, sure would be a lot more intuitive. Power surge could still be there to allow ninjas of course. Heck, could even have infestation slowly eat away at built power nodes, that'd be amazing. (And a good way to finally make the power node mechanic less cumbersome for aliens to deal with)
This is actually why I was curious if supply cap was incremented. Would allow sentires to stay decent without having THOUSANDS OF THEM during a single tech point turtle.
My suggestion, rework the entire movement and jumping system for skulks and other wall clingers (lerk). I’ll just discuss skulk below, but I think the same 1st jump mechanics should apply to lerk (no changes to fade, gorge, or onos are suggested here).
The change I'm thinking of:
Skulk base movement speed while running on the ground, walls, or ceiling is about as fast as a marine’s sprint speed (or whatever it currently is in vanilla).
The biggest change should be to jumping mechanics. When you press the jump key as a Skulk, have the the game now apply a variable velocity based on the angle direction he is looking in and also based on the surface he is jumping from (explained below). Pressing jump should have the skulk perform a “jump-lunge” type of movement. Holding ‘w’ isn’t required to get the velocity as described below, but ‘w’ allows for control after you leave the surface. Basically jump functions like a variable lunge. You can snap change your momentum, but you have to master your aim to do so (raising skill ceiling imo), and the faster you are going the harder that is (try to master lunge biting and tell me it’s easy).
Below I will grade the class of jump with the numbers 1 through 5. A higher number (5) is a faster jump, a lower number (1) is a slower jump. Chaining jumps together from a higher number to either the same number or lower number will slightly decrease your current velocity with each subsequent jump until you reach the regular ground jump speed (but you can move faster than normal movement speed for awhile). It will decrease it in such a way that jumping from the highest number (5), should allow you to close the distance of a large room or 2 smaller rooms quickly. However, if you jump from a lower number (1) to a higher number (5), your jump speed will “reset” to the higher number’s jump speed.
With respect to flat horizontal ground, I’ll call 90 degrees looking straight up, 45 degrees looking exactly between up and forward, 0 degrees looking straight forward, -45 degrees looking exactly between forward and down, and -90 degrees looking straight down.
There are also 3 classifications of surfaces. Ground, Wall, Ceiling. These are based on the angle its plane is at and what side of the surface you are on. If the surface is 0 to 45 degrees and you are on the top = Ground; if the surface is 0 to 45 degrees and you are on the bottom = Ceiling; anything else can be considered = Wall.
Now that the explanations are out of the way, here is what I am envisioning.
If the skulk is on the “Ground”
All jumps are Grade 1. Jumping applies forward velocity equal to the standard run speed, with an additional upwards velocity maybe to get the alien at head level if he’s looking slightly upwards from the ground (as he normally would be in close distances). Also that’s how I’d envision a rabid alien dog trying to attack, it tries to pounce on you and go for the jugular!
If the skulk is on the “Wall”
Grade 2. If the skulk jumps pointing 90 to 45 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity a bit faster than his normal ground jump speed, and an additional slight upwards velocity.
Grade 3. If the skulk jumps pointing 45 to 0 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity a little faster than before. The skulk gets no extra upwards or downwards velocity.
Grade 4. If the skulk jumps pointing 0 to -45 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity a little bit lower than a lunge would. The skulk gets no extra upwards or downwards velocity.
Grade 5. If the skulk jumps pointing -45 to -90 degrees with respect to ground, it applies forward velocity almost the same or even equal speed (with celerity) as a as a lunge would. A slight downwards velocity is applied.
And finally if the skulk is on the “Ceiling”
Grade 5. All jumps behave the same as the grade 5, -45 to -90 degree “Wall” jump (lunge speed velocity applies in direction you are facing). A slight downwards velocity is applied.
I guess 1 final note.
If the skulk jumps looking into the “Ground” or “Wall” he should slide off of it with no penalty applied to maintain forward momentum (beyond the slightly decreased speed if going from higher to lower grade rule). However friction should be applied after maybe half a second to decelerate you.
If the skulk jumps looking into the “Ceiling”, I’m not really sure how that should be handled, though I think he should be accelerated forward in whatever direction he is facing still, and probably slide along the surface a bit longer? Have friction applied maybe a second later? Idk that one is a bit tricky to envision.
So in conclusion, I think this would encourage skulks to use the walls more to lunge at maries for an attack. You would not have to wait in ambush all the time since you could lunge from the ceiling, and chain jump on the wall into a pack of marines without loosing too much speed, and be almost as fast as a lunge. The lunge research would still be useful since you can’t initiate lunge speed from the ground or if you are climbing up a wall. It’s probably pretty complex to program, but I think the mechanic would be intuitive and quick to pick up, while also providing a high skill ceiling to control it and get the most out of it.
Marine camping behind a door? Climb up a wall then do a -80 degree wall jump to the door, chain jump off the floor through the door to the next room, chain jump into the marine’s face, profit.
The current mechanics of jumping on a wall in any direction, and chaining together wall jumps to increase speed while not gaining or losing any vertical distance just seems stupid to me lol. How would that even work in reality? I know this is a game, but come on… Gravity should effect everything imo.
Sorry for the wall of text.
Killing an rt damages the next/nearest power-node by ~50%, so aliens have to give up less time chumping it (which I feel is a very boing/frustrating job)
Let's see first how Bile Bomb on first Hive plays out (Battle Gorges becomes more viable during early game harassment) before coming up with such arbitrary stuff.
Besides that nobody forces you to chomp down the power after taking out the RT. If you consider it a worthwhile investment of your time to prevent marines from getting that RT up again quickly, chomp on it. Otherwise ignore it and only go for it if you have a pack of 3 or more Skuks who can take it down quickly.
Something else, though: how about adding some air control to Babblers? Right now it's dead easy for marines to dodge them. They don't even hit me if I actually want them to do. So allowing them to correct their jump a bit midair towards their target would probably go a long way to make them somewhat viable in combat.
Yea, why not let infestation block powernodes being built and very slowly eat at built ones their hp? Definitely would be more intuitive than blocking structures ever was.
This sounds like a good idea too
Either way, infestation needs to have a purpose other than showing alien territory and being an additional t.res sink else I agree you may as well just get rid of it entirely. Ideally it needs to 'enforce' alien map control somehow, either by obstructing marine map control from taking place until it's removed or at the very least make said marine map control less effective.
I like this idea, would be a sensible way to prevent people from just farming turrets on 1 RT at least. Or tie it to TPs.
Plus the scaling would be equal across the board. Tps would havr to be staggered due to 3 hive 2CC max tech.