Cloaking Never Comes Into Play Anymore.
Naughty_Brembo
Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I miss the days when we were all n00bs.</div> Remember that feeling of skulking invisible in a ceiling corner, waiting for a LA LMG marine squad to walk by, then chomping their butts to your hearts delight?
Well, I do. For a week after the release, the gorges could build ANYTHING for a first upgrade, and sometimes that meant that you actually got to use cloaking in a very fun and original way, stalking them pesky marines...
These days, we all know the mantra DC MC SC, at least if the aliens aren´t ballsy enough or the gorge is fresh out of Kharaa high school...so when do we aliens get to play around with the cloaking these days?
Answer: When we are a 3-hive team of 5 onos, 3 fades and 2 lerks chomping the marine base. Cloaking is utterly useless by then, and never the fun addition it was meant to be.
I´m not saying I NEED cloaking to ambush the jarheads, but it was just such a great sensation of being invisible...and I KNOW the scanner sweep unveils you, but comms can´t sweep the map forever.
I don´t know what should be done, but I miss the days when cloaking was successfully used early-game and created unique tactics for online gaming. The only thing it´s good for now is a couple of laughs as you block off a corridor with a cloaked onos and stampede over that poor, scared-shitless marine that thought he had found a way out of the base...making DC/MC the "only" choices for early-game upgrades has lessened the NS experience.
Not to say it´s not the greatest mod ever, cause you all know that it is.
Well, I do. For a week after the release, the gorges could build ANYTHING for a first upgrade, and sometimes that meant that you actually got to use cloaking in a very fun and original way, stalking them pesky marines...
These days, we all know the mantra DC MC SC, at least if the aliens aren´t ballsy enough or the gorge is fresh out of Kharaa high school...so when do we aliens get to play around with the cloaking these days?
Answer: When we are a 3-hive team of 5 onos, 3 fades and 2 lerks chomping the marine base. Cloaking is utterly useless by then, and never the fun addition it was meant to be.
I´m not saying I NEED cloaking to ambush the jarheads, but it was just such a great sensation of being invisible...and I KNOW the scanner sweep unveils you, but comms can´t sweep the map forever.
I don´t know what should be done, but I miss the days when cloaking was successfully used early-game and created unique tactics for online gaming. The only thing it´s good for now is a couple of laughs as you block off a corridor with a cloaked onos and stampede over that poor, scared-shitless marine that thought he had found a way out of the base...making DC/MC the "only" choices for early-game upgrades has lessened the NS experience.
Not to say it´s not the greatest mod ever, cause you all know that it is.
Comments
We need defense chambers in the beginning to actually have a chance.
We need movement chambers second so our fade's can have a higher ROF.
You can build any tower you want at any time, as many as you want. However, the power level of the ability is limited by the number of hives you have, and the aliens can only choose to adapt in one way per hive.
Have 1 hive, Gorge builds a sensory, a defense and a movement. All Skulks and Lerks and Gorges get either Sensory, Def or Mov at level 1 power. If the Gorge builds 2 more defense, the power level is still limited to 1. So one skulk evolves sensory 1 and another evolves defense 1.
Second hive goes up, Defense jumps to level 2, since there are now 2 hives and 2 Def towers. First skulk is still sensory 1 (until another sensory is built), second skulk is now defense 2.
Third hive goes up, etc.
This solution allows for full use of alien powers with one hive, albeit at a low level that 's not out of balance with the marines, and allows each alien to evolve differently, as befits their choice of tactics.
Full powers only come with 3 hives. This would somewhat nerf Fades, who, with 2 hives would be limited to Carapce 2 and Adrenaline 2, but it wouldn't be such a horrible nerf that it would ruin the game.
Thoughts?
Er, thanks for stating the obvious. I just SAID that DC/MC are the only choices. Please don´t turn this into a thread about which upgrade should be picked first. Indeed, if you don´t bother to read what I´ve just said, why answer to the topic?
And i actually have seen a gorge go snesory first (not a newbie) although we all though he was. It was pretty fun cloaking as skulks. But even funner with a fade. You run away to regen then cloak around the corner then when those marines come lookin you slash away.
Perhaps it would be better to make upgrades cheaper, (1 point) but every upgrade only gives one extra level so you'd have a 3rp cost for full upgrades, and only allow three upgrades per hive, in any combination. So if you have three hives, you could get every upgrade, but only at first level, or you could specialize (what I'd expect to happen, as level 1 isn't very strong).
That way, you could get level three cloak early in the game, but you'd have to miss all other upgrades, while someone else could have level three carapace at the same time.
That way, gorges could go ahead and build their damn defense chambers but also put up some sensory while still only having one hive, and it wouldn't be too imbalanced because while the aliens only have one hive they can only upgrade once (they have to choose either a sensory upgrade or a defense upgrade).
The only real use of cloaking I see these days are when Fades want to have fun with the marines at the end of the game, getting them when they pop out of their base.. which is rare, since they're usually pinned in their base by Onos and spores. :/
Hope this will change sooner or later... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
closed minded fools
Sensory is a fine first chamber, you just need more co-operation on the alien teams then the usual "team work" that occurs now.
but, no one will ever try it, so I dont know why I waist my time
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closed minded fools
Sensory is a fine first chamber, you just need more co-operation on the alien teams then the usual "team work" that occurs now.
but, no one will ever try it, so I dont know why I waist my time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either Movement Or sensory is a good choice, Unless the skulks are too stupid to know how to use cloak effectively....
hidden just outside the enemy base, waiting to jump into the marines face and tear it off. ;)
It actually stopped them advancing for a while. And it often gave us the chance to let the gorge save up for the 2nd hive. After that i'd sit outside the door to marine base, watch some "jarhead" stumble out the base, shoot a few corners, hoping to hit me, start to advance with a few team mates, then get cut down by a few surprise claw swings... Ah... Memorys. ;)
I also remember when about 5 out of 8 players went gorge near the start of the game. Heh, and with the bug where marines got resourses twice as fast in the first version, it was really quite silly...
I think i might sneak into a server and build a few sensorys while no ones looking. :E
GGs MMZ and everyone else that was there (Minus the aforementioned saboteur).
[edit]
It seems the board doesn't like custom hl:// links.
Maybe you might even consider allowing players to get all three chambers upgrades at one time, considering it would allow for a skulks with say level 1 cloaking / carapace / silence, seeing as how these upgrades at level 1 are pretty weak, having all three might be as useful as having one of them fully upgraded at level 3.
At the very least, I know it would definitely promote some of the skills that aren't being used much these days, like scent of fear <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) Upgrade buildings can be built with abandon. As many kinds as you want, as many individual ones of each type as you want.
2) Players can chose one upgrade per active hive.
Result? If the team has all the buildings built, a player can pick and choose their upgrades, but only as many upgrades as their are hives.
Gorges can build as many towers of any kind as they want during the game but... the limitation is on the players. The players can only get one upgrade, it could be any kind (movement, sensory or defense) but while there is one hive they have to choose one and only one.
When the players dies they lose the upgrade (like usual) and then they have the opportunity to pick a new upgrade. That way players could freely choose their upgrade during the first hive (those that like sensory first etc....) and no one would flame the gorges cause they built "The WRONG" chamber first.
When the second hive came on then aliens could choose any 2 of 3 possible upgrade each life and so on.....
Lemme know if this is the same as was posted before.
Daveyboy
DOH I just read the 2 posts above.... NOBODY flame me please <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> sorry
That way, gorges could go ahead and build their damn defense chambers but also put up some sensory while still only having one hive, and it wouldn't be too imbalanced because while the aliens only have one hive they can only upgrade once (they have to choose either a sensory upgrade or a defense upgrade). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea has now come up 3 separate times without anyone realizing someone else had posted it here <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Although you are right, whoever posted it, resource restrictions would probably stop the use of cloaking that we all want to see early game.
I don't think letting people pick their upgrades would see much use in the early game, as level 3 defense or movement still costs half of a hive, and sensory is only 12 resources cheaper. Getting more than one would be quite a setback. Gorges would still be building in the same order due to resource constraints. It would see some use once the second hive is up, as gorges have nothing to spend resources on then, since the third hive is usually infested with marines (if not, game over). It would be an improvement in variety, but early game would still be all about carapace.
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Yeah, I also see this problem with Ninja´s (et al) idea: As long as there´s not a surplus of res points, people would STILL scream at the gorge to only build 3 DC´s and then save for a hive/RTs...but at least the option would be there, which is a good thing.
I think that gorges should be able to build all the upgrade chambers they want, but if an alien wants to benifit from one he has to "bind" himself to them, by +using them or something similar. Like, lets say a skulk wants level 3 carapace. He would have to go out and +use 1-3 SEPERATE defense chambers before he's allowed to click the upgrade button. It could be explained as gene swapping, where each alien needs to take the evolutionary genetic codes (or whatever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) from the chambers before he can use it's abilites. If one of the chambers gets blown up, the level of the upgrade goes down (ie the skulk would suddenly only have level 2 carapace if one of the 3 DCs he touched gets destroyed). Every time the player dies he would have to re-bind himself to the chambers, so it would be wise for the gorges to build at least 3 chambers in or near to the hives.
Also, lets say a gorge has built 3 defense chambers and 3 sensory chambers. A skulk with one hive would be able to pick from any of the chambers, but if he wants to use abilities from both of them he would need to sacrifice levels. IE, he could +use one SC and two DCs, but he would only have level 1 sensory upgrades and level 2 defense upgrades. For each hive gained the skulk gets access to 3 more picks, so at two hives he could either have level 3 carapace and adrenaline, or level 2 regeneration, silence, and cloaking (or any other combination).
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense, I'm tired.
One type of upgrade chamber can be built per hive, as usual.
HOWEVER, you can use non-built chamber's upgrades at prohibitivly high costs.
With 1,2, or 3 chambers - 2 res for level 1, 2, or 3.
With 0 chambers - 33 res to buy level 3, 22 to buy level 2, 11 to buy level 1.
In other words - For the same price as turning into a lerk, you can get a level 3 upgrade that has no chambers built yet.
This means that if you really, really want an upgrade, you can have it. It will not come cheap, however.
Pro - Much more freedom of choice in early game, even if it is at a price.
Pro - Will make Redemption more useful, as it can protect your investment.
Pro - Will attach larger meaning to living, giving aliens a 'fear of death' due to large investment into current state. Wether or not this is appropriate for the Kahraa is debatable.
Pro - Makes something besides DC-MC-SC a possibility.
Balance issue - Will cause increase in Kahraa 'pinning' ability in the early game.
Balance issue - Decreases parasite power due to Scent of Fear ability.
Balance issue - Increase in alien power.
Balance issue - Will increase importance of early-game motion tracking, due to availability of silence/cloaking.
Con - Will slow hive building, now that non-gorges have a larger choice than 'lerk' or 'give res to gorges'.
Con - N00bs going gorge to fund upgrades.
Con - Requires effort on the part of the Dev team.
Well, that's my suggestion. Hope no one said the same thing while I was writing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hives and upgrade chambers would work exactly as they do now. The personal upgrading is what would change, in the following way. Each Level of upgrade has to be purchased. Cut the Gestation time to a third, but modify the cost as follows:
If the upgrade you are purchasing has a Chamber and Hive associated with it, it costs 1 resource. If it doesn't, it costs 3-5 depending on balance issues. So if the Gorge has built 2 Defense Chambers for the first Hive, a Skulk could purchase Level 2 Carapace for 2 points, and Level 3 for another 3-5 rp's. He could also then purchase Level 3 Silence/Cloaking for another 9-15 rps (or both for 18-30rp's).
Having all the chambers available really isnt a huge issue, becuase defence chambers are spammed like crazy (and usually first anyway) movement are great, but not spamable, and well sensory at its current usefullness isnt really an issue.
It's not as bad as the mass flaming you get for building Sensory second. Just because you can't handle a Fade without spamming acid rockets, it doesn't mean it's useless without Adren y'know <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
People never believe, until you get more kills than them, without using any Acid as a Fade. Only then will they shh. So SLASH! my friends, use your claws, prove how much better they are without the EVIL acid rocket.
*Message brought to you by the anti-acid-spam bridgade. Thank you.*
Both defensive and movement chambers have secondary abilities, def chambers heal everything around them, and movememnt chambers teleport you to the furthest hive, both practical and valuble resources.
The sensory chamber does have a second ability, it parasites marines who touch it, which is almost pointless as why would a marine run up to a sensory chamber except to knife it?
Were sensory chambers given the ability to parasite from affar then maybe... just maybe it would become a more viable option for the first chamber.
¬Mart
EC Co-Leader