Of course you need to work as a 'team', but working as a team is not team work.
What is that even supposed to mean?
There is a game that sits right in the TOP10 most-played games on Steam.
It's called Left 4 Dead. In this game, you HAVE to help your team mates when they are pinned down by the hunter, strangled by the smoker, ridden by the jockey or pounded by the charger...
But lemme guess: That's no fun! You'd rather wander off, mind your own business, shoot some zombies or rush and use up all the healing items - thereby leaving your mates to die because where is the fun in helping them up? That would be WORK, and those stupid game designers shouldn't force that down your throat.
As an egotistical unsocial douchebrag you don't give a shit about the other 3 survivors. You got yours; why don't these useless moochers get their own, right?
It's not your fault that you're so 1337 (after all, you reached all those medkits FIRST, they are yours now) while the others obviously need to L2P...
...if you ever played Left 4 Dead with that kind of attitude towards team play, you must have been REALLY popular kicked A LOT.
PS: If this forum supports it, just put up a vote at the start of the thread. I'm quite tired of Savant's trademarked argument by volume.
We've already tried non-armor healing armories in the past and it was a huge annoyance.
Then another patch brought back armor-healing, and boy was that a sigh of relief.
Flayra once said if aliens can have their armor heal at the hive, so should Marines.
Armory's rate of restoring health was tweaked so that the more it was used, the less times it restored health. Almost similar to TF2 Engie dispenser having to recharge after x-amount of usage.
That said, I highly doubt this change will make another appearance.
If you reeeeally want hit-and-run tactics exemplified,
then implement a form of Focus ability (2 hits = 1 attack, but reduced rate of fire). It doesn't have to be an upgrade, it could even be lifeform-based.
HAI GUYZ! Got to page 10 and then got anoyed, lol! SO i stopped reading a bit, listen to me now kay?
What if guyz cud buy welders as res-sinks becuz sum ppl lyk welding and its fun? THen also we wudnt see lots of robots and gunz and tings. Theres a lot of dem alredy! I lyk shooting w/o shotguns sumtimes anyway!
Also mebe fightin wud be more fun becuz the guyz wudnt be lookin at the armory thingy all da time?
WAIT, what if mebe it cud be a little bit lyk were weldin was good but not OP and sum ppl did it and sum ppl didnt and eveyrthing was ok? Also dese MAC thingies sound KOOL and really aysmetrical! Also its diffrent from NS1 which is gud becuz that game was BROKEN. Rember wen guyz never welded? SO ANOYIN!
WAIT AGAIN, mebe u cud have lyk some armor upgrade thingy for the advanced thingy that costs sumting so not all armorys have the armor upgrade thingy but base can still have armor thingy? Dat way, its not OP forward armory everywere but ppl can still get free armor by da tym rhinos and fades cum out? Mebe we cud all be a bit happy den???? I dnno.
WAIT 1 MORE TYM! Wen dese other changes cum in, mebe dis idea cud pretty gud, no? Lyk dat 1 were ppl dont cum to life as fast. Dat cud mebe help!! Were prtty lucky dat other things are changin guyz otherwise balance cud go to lyk 80/20 for aliens.
Just so youguyz know, I am workin on sum secret game where I make lots of ideas so im pretty gud at dis kinda thing ok? I cant say wat it iz becuz the game is alredy so gud but trust me guyz, im a pro.
ALRIGHT DEN, dats just my ideas for da tym being! Hope u enjy!
What if guyz cud buy welders as res-sinks becuz sum ppl lyk welding and its fun?
In terms of pRes purchases, the pRes maximum is too low, and the maximum pRes income is too slow, for the concept of a res sink to ever apply to that currency.
What if guyz cud buy welders as res-sinks becuz sum ppl lyk welding and its fun?
In terms of pRes purchases, the pRes maximum is too low, and the maximum pRes income is too slow, for the concept of a res sink to ever apply to that currency.
Jus think for a bit plz. Wat if u were wrong? Den we wud b in trouble!
There is a game that sits right in the TOP10 most-played games on Steam. It's called Left 4 Dead. In this game, you HAVE to help your team mates when they are pinned down by the hunter, strangled by the smoker, ridden by the jockey or pounded by the charger...
There is no skin off my nose to melee you to get a hunter off you, to break you from the smoker tongue, or shoot at the back of a charger. It costs me NOTHING. But tell me, does a person HAVE to give up their pills or use their medkit on you, even when you already used your OWN pills and medkit once already?
No.
That's the difference. The first example isn't really a sacrifice. The second is. THAT is team work.
You want to TAKE AWAY something from the marines in NS2 for no other reason than some lame 'team work' excuse. To use your L4D2 analogy it would be like the game FORCING a player to give up their pills and medkit when someone is low on health. Or it would be like saying your pills and medkit can only be used on OTHER players and not yourself.
What makes L4D2 a great game is that people are given the CHOICE to help others by giving up their consumables. It's a personal sacrifice and people appreciate it when it happens because they know the person is making that choice because they WANT to and not because they HAVE to. If someone uses a medkit on you, and you have already used pills AND a medkit already, you will appreciate that gesture since you know that they are giving something up that they should rightfully be using for themselves.
That is how it is now in NS2. If someone buys a welder it's a personal sacrifice by CHOICE. If you remove armor repair at the armory it ceases to become a choice and becomes an obligation since it's the only way to heal up.
That's not 'team work'. It's forced and totally contrived. That's the difference.
What if guyz cud buy welders as res-sinks becuz sum ppl lyk welding and its fun?
In terms of pRes purchases, the pRes maximum is too low, and the maximum pRes income is too slow, for the concept of a res sink to ever apply to that currency.
Jus think for a bit plz. Wat if u were wrong? Den we wud b in trouble!
If I hadn't made it clear already, I am unable to conceptualise the other side of the coin, as it were. In order for me to comprehend and understand a hypothesis contrary to my own, I would require information and inspiration from an external source.
PS: If this forum supports it, just put up a vote at the start of the thread. I'm quite tired of Savant's trademarked argument by volume.
Sorry, missed this line. Forum vote? Ummm no.
How about this instead. Change the main menu in NS2 to allow a vote - just like they do in L4D2, and ask "Do you want armor repair removed from the armory so that marine armor can only be repaired by a welder? (which still must be purchased from the armory for 5 personal resources)"
You think most people would vote yes? Heh, I don't think so. You talk about posts by volume, it's the same people here who want to shaft the general player base that are trying to do that. Talk to the 'average player' and see what they want. I think you'll be in for a shock if you believe that they would agree with this.
Put armory welding as a separate research you have to purchase at an advanced armory. Problem solved, forward armories don't weld unless you invest res in them, the base armory will, eventually.
Put armory welding as a separate research you have to purchase at an advanced armory. Problem solved, forward armories don't weld unless you invest res in them, the base armory will, eventually.
This creates an odd dynamic, where the location at which you are most likely to first gain the ability to research the upgrade (marine spawn), is the location where you are least likely to require it.
While one could view this is a potential trade off mechanic (which do a great job in increasing tactical complexity), I would define it as a "stupid" tradeoff. That is to say that it is a tradeoff which requires you to build a high cost, high importance structure in a high risk location. It forces a player to be tactically stupid, which is highly unintuitive.
You think most people would vote yes? Heh, I don't think so. You talk about posts by volume, it's the same people here who want to shaft the general player base that are trying to do that. Talk to the 'average player' and see what they want. I think you'll be in for a shock if you believe that they would agree with this.
I mostly think you should stop speaking for anyone but yourself. Your feelings are your own and if people agree with them, great, but that is their choice not yours. Assuming you know what people want is trite politician style bull. Now, I'm not saying I know either but what we are seeing in this thread is a tiny VOCAL cross section of the community. It is by no means representative of the whole. Any claims of what "joe plumber" wants is speculative at best and just makes you a maverick.
I believe there is a balance issue that is buried under layers of other problems. That issue is marine armor, and we got to see just the very tip of the iceberg with the skulk movement changes the past few builds. This problem resonates all throughout the game and to other lifeforms as well, not just the skulk. This is my opinion, and I speak for no one but me.
P.S. Please fix where you quoted Hamlet above but it has my handle. I prefer to only be quoted for things I actually said.
Put armory welding as a separate research you have to purchase at an advanced armory. Problem solved, forward armories don't weld unless you invest res in them, the base armory will, eventually.
This creates an odd dynamic, where the location at which you are most likely to first gain the ability to research the upgrade (marine spawn), is the location where you are least likely to require it.
While one could view this is a potential trade off mechanic (which do a great job in increasing tactical complexity), I would define it as a "stupid" tradeoff. That is to say that it is a tradeoff which requires you to build a high cost, high importance structure in a high risk location. It forces a player to be tactically stupid, which is highly unintuitive.
How is it different from forcing Aliens to build Shifts and Crags near places they are trying to assault or defend, though?
The main point though is that unless the Marines are confident they can hold a location, it will force Marines to phase back to their base for armor repairs, unless they have welders with them. Moreover, as it is, placing an armory in a forward position gives Marines a very cheap way to increase their longevity by several factors. They should have to pay for the luxury, whether that is via welders or upgrading the armory, it matters not.
I mostly think you should stop speaking for anyone but yourself. Your feelings are your own and if people agree with them, great, but that is their choice not yours. Assuming you know what people want is trite politician style bull.
I only speak for myself here. However, I'm not assuming what people want, I'm going from personal experience. You do know I work in this business right? I've been in it from the early days when I was beta testing the *original* Half-Life when I worked with Sierra. Although I speak for myself I do generally know what the public wants since if I didn't I wouldn't have a job. The public is very fickle when it comes to video games, and any developer who ignores that does that at their own peril. I've seen many a game sink at launch since the developer thought they 'knew better'.
I believe there is a balance issue that is buried under layers of other problems. That issue is marine armor
Sorry, I disagree. Marine armor (and alien armor for that matter) is something that cannot be screwed with on a whim.
What you don't seem to acknowledge is that armor (any armor) is part of FUNDAMENTAL game balance. It's how you balance fights between two different units. It allows you to have one unit (with a given weapon) do more (or less) damage to an opponent compared to another unit or weapon.
Example. If you have a marine with a pistol out and he fires on a Fade, the Fade's armor will absorb 4 points of damage for each point of armor. The pistol, that normally does 25 light damage per bullet, only delivers an effective damage of 6.25 versus Fade armor. However, the LMG, does 10 normal damage per bullet. In this case the Fade armor will absorb 2 points of damage for each point of armor. So that's an effective 5 damage per point of armor. See how that works? Had armor not been present, the pistol would have done 25 damage per bullet and the LMG 10 damage per bullet. Everyone would have their pistol out since the pistol would be overpowered.
A carapace skulk has an effective health of 190 versus a pistol, while that same skulk has an effective health of only 140 versus an LMG. This is what armor does. It provides a means to BALANCE various matchups.
If you artificially create a situation where a player is running around without armor, then you have BROKEN THE GAME. All of those finely tuned balance calculations are thrown out the window since armor is gone.
The marine that took 4 bites to kill with armor only takes 2 bites to kill. This is a major imbalance.
So no, marine armor is not a 'problem'. Marine armor is a fundamental part of gameplay. If there are balance issues, then they have to be corrected without stripping marines of their armor.
You think most people would vote yes? Heh, I don't think so. You talk about posts by volume, it's the same people here who want to shaft the general player base that are trying to do that. Talk to the 'average player' and see what they want. I think you'll be in for a shock if you believe that they would agree with this.
I mostly think you should stop speaking for anyone but yourself. Your feelings are your own and if people agree with them, great, but that is their choice not yours. Assuming you know what people want is trite politician style bull. Now, I'm not saying I know either but what we are seeing in this thread is a tiny VOCAL cross section of the community. It is by no means representative of the whole. Any claims of what "joe plumber" wants is speculative at best and just makes you a maverick.
I believe there is a balance issue that is buried under layers of other problems. That issue is marine armor, and we got to see just the very tip of the iceberg with the skulk movement changes the past few builds. This problem resonates all throughout the game and to other lifeforms as well, not just the skulk. This is my opinion, and I speak for no one but me.
This game cannot work by nerfing one side and the nerfing the other to fix it. You are basically saying that the issues lies with marine armor when aliens were stomping with skulks before they got nerfed in terms of movement. Some skulks cannot even get close to good marines because of their limited movement. Others are clamoring for the skulk game play to become more enjoyable and this is an aspect Sewlek's mod addresses. So the solution is nerf the marine armories? Wasn't the main argument that this change would promote good teamwork by having marines weld each other so there would be no issue? How exactly do you expect this to help the aliens if that is the case?
Though I like the suggestion of placing a poll on the main game left4dead 2 style to settle that part of the argument. Who can say anything if the 1.6k concurrent players say they want the change in?
I only speak for myself here. However, I'm not assuming what people want, I'm going from personal experience. You do know I work in this business right? I've been in it from the early days when I was beta testing the *original* Half-Life when I worked with Sierra. Although I speak for myself I do generally know what the public wants since if I didn't I wouldn't have a job. The public is very fickle when it comes to video games, and any developer who ignores that does that at their own peril. I've seen many a game sink at launch since the developer thought they 'knew better'.
I understand wanting to add credibility to your argument by stating your work experience, and I am well aware you work in the industry, but that doesn't make your suppositions immediately right. In fact, when I read it it feels like trying to throw unnecessary weight behind your argument rather than try to let your ideas speak for themselves. I like to naively assume that people who post on the forums spend a reasonable amount of time playing the game and I use that as a baseline level of credibility so I can focus more on the ideas they postulate rather than them as a person. Trying to throw extra credibility where it isn't needed is just inviting a torrent of ad hominem arguments, and these forums need less of that.
tl;dr Stating your work experience is largely irrelevant to me when I find I don't agree with your arguments based on their own inherent implications.
Sorry, I disagree. Marine armor (and alien armor for that matter) is something that cannot be screwed with on a whim.
What you don't seem to acknowledge is that armor (any armor) is part of FUNDAMENTAL game balance. It's how you balance fights between two different units. It allows you to have one unit (with a given weapon) do more (or less) damage to an opponent compared to another unit or weapon.
Example. If you have a marine with a pistol out and he fires on a Fade, the Fade's armor will absorb 4 points of damage for each point of armor. The pistol, that normally does 25 light damage per bullet, only delivers an effective damage of 6.25 versus Fade armor. However, the LMG, does 10 normal damage per bullet. In this case the Fade armor will absorb 2 points of damage for each point of armor. So that's an effective 5 damage per point of armor. See how that works? Had armor not been present, the pistol would have done 25 damage per bullet and the LMG 10 damage per bullet. Everyone would have their pistol out since the pistol would be overpowered.
A carapace skulk has an effective health of 190 versus a pistol, while that same skulk has an effective health of only 140 versus an LMG. This is what armor does. It provides a means to BALANCE various matchups.
If you artificially create a situation where a player is running around without armor, then you have BROKEN THE GAME. All of those finely tuned balance calculations are thrown out the window since armor is gone.
The marine that took 4 bites to kill with armor only takes 2 bites to kill. This is a major imbalance.
So no, marine armor is not a 'problem'. Marine armor is a fundamental part of gameplay. If there are balance issues, then they have to be corrected without stripping marines of their armor.
No one is stripping marines of their armor. The fundamental balance issue I am focusing on is that aliens damage does not scale against marine armor scaling. As the game goes on the alien team requires more skill to compete. The marginal skill between aliens and marines required as the game progresses is not parallel. There are other problems, like the onos, that are covering up this issue. The solution is not to completely remove armor scaling or armor itself from marines, but to create situations where they aren't always at full. Effectively, actually making hit and run tactics work. The offender I am pointing to is the armory. As it is now, there is no reason not to have them peppered all over the map and no reason for a marine to not be at full armor. For a 10 TRes structure they are way too good.
This isn't a change that can be blindly thrown into the game in its current state.
This game cannot work by nerfing one side and the nerfing the other to fix it. You are basically saying that the issues lies with marine armor when aliens were stomping with skulks before they got nerfed in terms of movement. Some skulks cannot even get close to good marines because of their limited movement. Others are clamoring for the skulk game play to become more enjoyable and this is an aspect Sewlek's mod addresses. So the solution is nerf the marine armories? Wasn't the main argument that this change would promote good teamwork by having marines weld each other so there would be no issue? How exactly do you expect this to help the aliens if that is the case?
Though I like the suggestion of placing a poll on the main game left4dead 2 style to settle that part of the argument. Who can say anything if the 1.6k concurrent players say they want the change in?
That's other people's arguments not mine. The skulk as it was pre-movement nerf was pretty ridiculous. It had overly erratic movement and it was way too forgiving. If you missed your target... INSTANT MID AIR 180 and you were back in position. People are probably just too used to being able to barrel in and move erratically to kill marines. Movement is now more deliberate, though the case can definitely be made for it also being less fun now. The answer is not to revert back to the earlier iteration but to find a happy medium.
Now, to tie this into the tip of the iceberg statement. As the game goes on the skulk is less and less effective, not only because it can be killed faster (more weapon types and weapon upgrades) but also because marines have more armor so TTK rises. That armor is almost always full. How often as a marine do you run around with armor missing? I know if I am low on armor and I see an armory, I am going to hump the hell out of it. Right down to it, I think that as the game progresses the level of skill required by the alien team on the ground (the FPS players) is far greater than what is required by the marines at the same time and tech level.
That's other people's arguments not mine. The skulk as it was pre-movement nerf was pretty ridiculous. It had overly erratic movement and it was way too forgiving. If you missed your target... INSTANT MID AIR 180 and you were back in position. People are probably just too used to being able to barrel in and move erratically to kill marines. Movement is now more deliberate, though the case can definitely be made for it also being less fun now. The answer is not to revert back to the earlier iteration but to find a happy medium.
Now, to tie this into the tip of the iceberg statement. As the game goes on the skulk is less and less effective, not only because it can be killed faster (more weapon types and weapon upgrades) but also because marines have more armor so TTK rises. That armor is almost always full. How often as a marine do you run around with armor missing? I know if I am low on armor and I see an armory, I am going to hump the hell out of it. Right down to it, I think that as the game progresses the level of skill required by the alien team on the ground (the FPS players) is far greater than what is required by the marines at the same time and tech level.
A happy medium would be nice but I guess that is still up in the air.
As for the skulk becoming useless late game I agree. So this is why a strong initial offense is important to guarantee those later lifeforms. But back to the skulk. I also feel the thing should scale a bit better late game. Not too much to be extremely ridiculously powerful to easily take out Jetpack marine with SG (If they improve skulk movement and scale it a bit better it should have a decent chance). But enough to deal with a typical LMG W3 A3 marine on equal grounds. So yea either a form of Focus returns with more armor/health as you get more hives or as an upgrade to skulks in general that the Kham can research for a price. Why risk frustrating marine players or forcing them to buy welders when you can just give the skulks an alternate buff late game? There are so many less annoying ways to fix the late game skulk instead of just flat out nerfing the marine armories.
When they tried this before, I remember not long after everyone hated it and it was soon reverted. The same will happen again. So lets just not do it in the first place. It will just be a repeat of last time. It was a worse then when armories had a limit to how huch they could heal and how much ammo they dispensed
It was reverted but everyone did not hate it, it was a controversial argument then like it is now. The game was in a much worse place all around at the time.
...I am well aware you work in the industry, but that doesn't make your suppositions immediately right.
Of course not! Hey, I'm not infallible, nor do I profess to be so. Like anyone else, I rely on my experience and knowledge to guide my decisions. That's all *anyone* can do in regard to anything in life. You use your best judgment based on knowledge and past experience. I only state my background since I want it to be clear that I don't make my observations blindly.
No one is stripping marines of their armor. The fundamental balance issue I am focusing on is that aliens damage does not scale against marine armor scaling. As the game goes on the alien team requires more skill to compete. The marginal skill between aliens and marines required as the game progresses is not parallel. There are other problems, like the onos, that are covering up this issue. The solution is not to completely remove armor scaling or armor itself from marines, but to create situations where they aren't always at full. ... Now, to tie this into the tip of the iceberg statement. As the game goes on the skulk is less and less effective, not only because it can be killed faster (more weapon types and weapon upgrades) but also because marines have more armor so TTK rises.
You can't have it both ways though. On the one hand you say you're not stripping marines of armor and in the next breath you say you don't want marines to be "at full". IOW, you want to strip marines of armor. Why not call a spade a spade here?
You're trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver here. First off, alien damage doesn't scale since this is an asymmetric game. It's why a skulk is more powerful in the early game and not as much in the late game. That's why aliens have advanced lifeforms, to fill in the gap later on. If skulks scaled so they were just as deadly in the late game as in the early game, then why bother with advanced lifeforms?
The alien gameplay has to change as the game goes on. That's what the developers have built into the game. The early game skulk that was out killing marines is not going to live long going after jetpack/shottie marines appear. That is *intended*. If the marine is spending 30 res on equipment, then a 0 res skulk is going to be outmatched. That is *intended*. This is why skulks need to go after marine ASSETS more in the later game. One can't understate how significant it is to have skulks taking down extractors constantly in the later game. Or going after power nodes. With celerity and leap skulks can cross the map in seconds. Marines can't compete with that, not even with phase gates.
Marines get more armor later on since they don't get advanced lifeforms. They don't get to change to another class with more effective health . (barring the EXO - which is an end-game unit like the Onos)
Honestly, aliens have gotten lazy and want everything given to them on a platter. Marines have too much armor? Well instead of moaning about it, hit their main and kill the arms lab. Even if you don't manage to do so, you'll likely trigger a beacon and force them to burn 15 res. It's the same for marines. If aliens are too hard to kill marines are quite welcome to try and take out the carapace shell - if they can find it, and if there are no redundant ones.
The real problem here is that you treating a game challenge as a balance issue when it is not. If an armory is making marines too strong, group up and kill it. No more armor repair until marines rebuild. This is why standard armories are EASIER to kill than advanced armories.
If the armory was an indestructible structure, then you might have a point. It's not though. If you have two skulks they can kill an armory in only SEVEN SECONDS. (three skulks bring that to under 5 seconds) Unless the marines are literally sitting on top of it, you should have no problem making the kill. Add in a gorge with bile bomb and it cuts that time to 3 seconds. Not rocket science here.
So instead of nerfing the armory, why not go and ATTACK it?
A happy medium would be nice but I guess that is still up in the air.
As for the skulk becoming useless late game I agree. So this is why a strong initial offense is important to guarantee those later lifeforms. But back to the skulk. I also feel the thing should scale a bit better late game. Not too much to be extremely ridiculously powerful to easily take out Jetpack marine with SG (If they improve skulk movement and scale it a bit better it should have a decent chance). But enough to deal with a typical LMG W3 A3 marine on equal grounds. So yea either a form of Focus returns with more armor/health as you get more hives or as an upgrade to skulks in general that the Kham can research for a price. Why risk frustrating marine players or forcing them to buy welders when you can just give the skulks an alternate buff late game? There are so many less annoying ways to fix the late game skulk instead of just flat out nerfing the marine armories.
The thing is, I don't think it is an issue with just the skulk, the fade has the same problem. Especially now that the shotgun is an orbital strike cannon that utterly decimates them when they are in melee range. While the fade is still extremely effective at picking off stragglers, attacking an entrenched forward position with an armory is pretty difficult as any damage you do when blinking in and then escaping will be pretty quickly nullified by the sheer power of an armory.
To me, it feels like the alien team needs a disproportionately high level of teamwork to break a forward armory turtle. With the bile nerf this is showing a little more prominently, and would be glaring, I believe, once the Onos isn't so ridiculous (ie multiple onos at a time).
If we need to make welders or MACs more accessible to reduce tedium so be it. The game should be fun, but it shouldn't hold my hand either.
You can't have it both ways though. On the one hand you say you're not stripping marines of armor and in the next breath you say you don't want marines to be "at full". IOW, you want to strip marines of armor. Why not call a spade a spade here?
I am not asking for it both ways, and in no way am I saying to strip them of armor. You are putting words into my mouth. I am asking for situations where armor level isn't always at full. If marines are always going to have full armor, why not just make it a damage reduction modifier and balance TTK around that because we obviously have an unneeded overly complex variable?
You're trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver here. First off, alien damage doesn't scale since this is an asymmetric game. It's why a skulk is more powerful in the early game and not as much in the late game. That's why aliens have advanced lifeforms, to fill in the gap later on. If skulks scaled so they were just as deadly in the late game as in the early game, then why bother with advanced lifeforms?
I am not, nor have a ever asked for alien DAMAGE scaling. I like that the game doesn't have it. As the game goes on alien playstyle has to adapt to marine upgrades. However, because armor is effectively always at full, they don't just have to adapt but work HARDER to achieve the same results. Having an armor value that can decrease as a marine is attacked screams hit and run tactics to me. However, as soon as you withdrawl, all the marines can just look at the armory for a second and be good to go at full strength again.
The alien gameplay has to change as the game goes on. That's what the developers have built into the game. The early game skulk that was out killing marines is not going to live long going after jetpack/shottie marines appear. That is *intended*. If the marine is spending 30 res on equipment, then a 0 res skulk is going to be outmatched. That is *intended*. This is why skulks need to go after marine ASSETS more in the later game. One can't understate how significant it is to have skulks taking down extractors constantly in the later game. Or going after power nodes. With celerity and leap skulks can cross the map in seconds. Marines can't compete with that, not even with phase gates.
See above, I know it is intended but it is currently harsher than it needs to be. Especially considering the baseline marine scales far beyond the baseline skulk at endgame. This is a matter of obsolescence and snowballing.
Marines get more armor later on since they don't get advanced lifeforms. They don't get to change to another class with more effective health . (barring the EXO - which is an end-game unit like the Onos)
This ignores the massively increased firepower marines get. There is more to it than a direct comparison to alien lifeforms. Honestly, with a shotgun and jetpack the marine is effectively a different class as it plays and moves vastly different than the base LMG marine. Your statement is a vast oversimplification of an equipment based system vs a class system.
The real problem here is that you treating a game challenge as a balance issue when it is not. If an armory is making marines too strong, group up and kill it. No more armor repair until marines rebuild. This is why standard armories are EASIER to kill than advanced armories.
Let's not ignore the fact they are only 10 TRes, have a low build time, and are baseline tech available at all points in the game. They are hands down the most powerful structure the marines have and to top it off they are dirt cheap. When it comes down to supporting a forward position the comm has two choices, drop meds and ammo at 1 TRes per or just drop the infinite vending machine at a one time cost of 10 TRes that also has the benefit of restoring armor. The choice 9 times out of 10 is a no brainer. Armory all day every day.
Armory's rate of restoring health was tweaked so that the more it was used, the less times it restored health. Almost similar to TF2 Engie dispenser having to recharge after x-amount of usage.
I am not asking for it both ways, and in no way am I saying to strip them of armor. You are putting words into my mouth. I am asking for situations where armor level isn't always at full.
You still want it both ways.
On the one hand you say you want situations where marine armor level isn't always full. Well as it stands - since marines don't carry around an amory on their back - you have that NOW. Then you suggest that making marines pay for and carry welders will achieve that, despite welders being MORE portable than armories. Frankly, the suggestion itself is defeatist on its face.
However, the reality is still that your intent is to strip marines or armor to weaken them as a unit. If that wasn't your intent then your change would accomplish NOTHING. If you don't want to strip marines of armor, then you should have no problem with them repairing their armor at an armory.
As I've said before, and you may have missed it, I would accept this change if it had NO COST to the marine. If you want to yank armor repair and give marines a free welder in their loadout when they spawn, then I could accept that. The problem is that not only do you want to strip marines of armor, you want them to PAY to repair it.
Seriously? You can't expect me to accept a set of circumstances where one team can repair to full for FREE at any time without need of another player, and then say the other team's players can't repair their armor at all (alone) and must depend on other players who have to spend resources. It's completely unbalanced.
I am not, nor have a ever asked for alien DAMAGE scaling.
By nerfing marines (let's call it what it is, a big nerf) you are most certainly asking for damage scaling. Do I need to quote you from above where you talk about marine armor increasing and alien damage not? You said above:
"The fundamental balance issue I am focusing on is that aliens damage does not scale against marine armor scaling."
So you are asking for alien damage scaling by reducing marine armor levels. If marine armor decreases then alien damage increases.
However, because armor is effectively always at full, they don't just have to adapt but work HARDER to achieve the same results.
It is NOT always at full, and repeating the same inaccuracy over and over won't make it true. Any time a marine leaves a base they are vulnerable. Marines don't normally carry welders which means they are NOT always at full armor. The only time a marine is at full armor is when they return to a base, and in that case they DESERVE to be at full armor since they are in a defensive position.
It doesn't matter what side you are on, when you return to your base you should be able to heal up. Period. No cost, no hassle. If you want to change that then it must be changed for BOTH sides.
Marines get more armor later on since they don't get advanced lifeforms. They don't get to change to another class with more effective health . (barring the EXO - which is an end-game unit like the Onos)
This ignores the massively increased firepower marines get.
It doesn't ignore anything. You are ignoring the fact that this increased firepower is on a standard marine. With aliens you can evolve to a Fade and not only do you get better damage, you get more health/armor. With a marine he will *ALWAYS* have 100 health. Always. His armor may increase during the game, but he is just as easy to kill in the late game when aliens use advanced lifeforms.
Let's not ignore the fact they are only 10 TRes, have a low build time, and are baseline tech available at all points in the game.
The armory is a 'standard' build time of 12 seconds. If you group the 13 second build time of the Robotics Factory in with the Extractor and the Phase Gate, there are things that build faster and some that build slower. I wouldn't call 12 seconds a 'low build time' by any stretch of the imagination.
As for the cost, 10 t-res is still 10 t-res. Guess what? It costs EXACTLY the same amount as a crag, and it does the same thing. Oh wait, no it doesn't. The crag doesn't provide ammo since aliens don't NEED ammo, marines do and are dependant on that. Lemme guess you want to take away ammo from the armory too?
Hey why don't we go back to the NS1 days when the armory didn't do anything and the commander had to drop it all? Or, we can accept that this is a new game and it comes with new challenges.
They are hands down the most powerful structure the marines have
If that was true - which it isn't - then logic would dictate that the "most powerful structure" would also be the biggest target. Yet surprisingly the aliens don't go for the armory first in most cases. That's because it's not nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. If it was then it would be target #1 for the aliens.
On the one hand you say you want situations where marine armor level isn't always full. Well as it stands - since marines don't carry around an amory on their back - you have that NOW. Then you suggest that making marines pay for and carry welders will achieve that, despite welders being MORE portable than armories. Frankly, the suggestion itself is defeatist on its face.
Please quote me where I said anything about making marines pay for welders. In fact you'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. In fact a few posts above I stated that if MACs and welders needed to be made more accessible then so be it. Stop putting words into my mouth. Seriously.
However, the reality is still that your intent is to strip marines or armor to weaken them as a unit. If that wasn't your intent then your change would accomplish NOTHING. If you don't want to strip marines of armor, then you should have no problem with them repairing their armor at an armory.
Stop saying strip them of armor. That is not my intent nor have I ever stated that. Marines should be able to be at full armor, but I find the frequency and ease of being at full armor IN THE FIELD is too high. My problem is the armory is the jack of all damn trades and you can go to it for all your replenishment needs. It is dirt cheap, can be placed easily on the front lines, and its only prerequisite is power.
As I've said before, and you may have missed it, I would accept this change if it had NO COST to the marine. If you want to yank armor repair and give marines a free welder in their loadout when they spawn, then I could accept that. The problem is that not only do you want to strip marines of armor, you want them to PAY to repair it.
Seriously? You can't expect me to accept a set of circumstances where one team can repair to full for FREE at any time without need of another player, and then say the other team's players can't repair their armor at all (alone) and must depend on other players who have to spend resources. It's completely unbalanced.
Once again, I am not arguing that point. But we can go in circles if you like and get absolutely no where. Let me state it again: "In fact you'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. In fact a few posts above I stated that if MACs and welders needed to be made more accessible then so be it."
By nerfing marines (let's call it what it is, a big nerf) you are most certainly asking for damage scaling.
No. I am not. Stop putting words into my mouth. Seriously. Damage scaling would imply that the aliens damage increases throughout the game. I am asking for it to stay the same but allow a playstyle change to make up for it. Marines can far too easily replenish armor in forward positions so there is no playstyle change, it is just straight up harder. And yes it is a nerf, thanks for the obvious.
It is NOT always at full, and repeating the same inaccuracy over and over won't make it true. Any time a marine leaves a base they are vulnerable. Marines don't normally carry welders which means they are NOT always at full armor. The only time a marine is at full armor is when they return to a base, and in that case they DESERVE to be at full armor since they are in a defensive position.
Fine, I will reduce my obvious hyperbole for the sake of argument to "almost always".
It doesn't matter what side you are on, when you return to your base you should be able to heal up. Period. No cost, no hassle. If you want to change that then it must be changed for BOTH sides.
For the third time, I am not arguing against this. To reiterate for the last time: Forward. Armories. Are. Stupid.
The armory is a 'standard' build time of 12 seconds. If you group the 13 second build time of the Robotics Factory in with the Extractor and the Phase Gate, there are things that build faster and some that build slower. I wouldn't call 12 seconds a 'low build time' by any stretch of the imagination.
12 seconds is not a long time and it is reduced for every additional marine building it.
As for the cost, 10 t-res is still 10 t-res. Guess what? It costs EXACTLY the same amount as a crag, and it does the same thing. Oh wait, no it doesn't. The crag doesn't provide ammo since aliens don't NEED ammo, marines do and are dependant on that. Lemme guess you want to take away ammo from the armory too?
Oh look, more words I didn't say and assumptions about how I feel. The crag also requires a cyst chain connected to a hive which costs TRes and it takes multiple crags to match the heal rate of an armory without the use of healwave (a TRes activated ability). In all honesty with the mobility of the aliens often times it is quicker to just return to a hive.
I am not trying to change your mind. I am merely trying to keep my argument from being fallaciously misrepresented. I am growing pretty tired of correcting things I did not say.
As for the cost, 10 t-res is still 10 t-res. Guess what? It costs EXACTLY the same amount as a crag, and it does the same thing. Oh wait, no it doesn't. The crag doesn't provide ammo since aliens don't NEED ammo, marines do and are dependant on that. Lemme guess you want to take away ammo from the armory too?
Hey why don't we go back to the NS1 days when the armory didn't do anything and the commander had to drop it all? Or, we can accept that this is a new game and it comes with new challenges.
They are hands down the most powerful structure the marines have
If that was true - which it isn't - then logic would dictate that the "most powerful structure" would also be the biggest target. Yet surprisingly the aliens don't go for the armory first in most cases. That's because it's not nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. If it was then it would be target #1 for the aliens.
So why don't we cut all the crap and just give marines auto-regeneration. We can adopt the casualization meme of COD etc and give everyone an auto-heal once they're out of combat for a few seconds. It works for those games right? And besides, aliens already have auto-regen, why should marines be stuck with the lame burden of running around to armories?
I'm a fan of requiring welders for armor. Or at least have the armories only restore it slowly or only the first 30 or something. But welders would make for better teamwork.
The thing is, I don't think it is an issue with just the skulk, the fade has the same problem. Especially now that the shotgun is an orbital strike cannon that utterly decimates them when they are in melee range. While the fade is still extremely effective at picking off stragglers, attacking an entrenched forward position with an armory is pretty difficult as any damage you do when blinking in and then escaping will be pretty quickly nullified by the sheer power of an armory.
To me, it feels like the alien team needs a disproportionately high level of teamwork to break a forward armory turtle. With the bile nerf this is showing a little more prominently, and would be glaring, I believe, once the Onos isn't so ridiculous (ie multiple onos at a time).
If we need to make welders or MACs more accessible to reduce tedium so be it. The game should be fun, but it shouldn't hold my hand either.
As a fade if you got 1 marine at an armory you can easily take him down. Now if you got several marines you are going to need some help and why shouldn't you? Teamwork is needed for aliens as well one fade should not be able to destroy an entire marine squad who bought weapons with their own pres. Would a 50 pres exo be able to take down an entire alien group? In addition aliens are fast and have many options open to them. You can easily destroy forward bases by sending a group where marines are not and forcing them to becon.
"If we need to make welders or MACs more accessible to reduce tedium so be it."
Reduce tedium? So basically add tedium for marines and reduce tedium for aliens? I really want to know how it will reduce tedium for you? From my view I feel like you are saying that marines will just become easier targets for fades and aliens because of attempting to weld each other? Because that just adds frustration to marines. Attempting to use "teamwork" and being destroyed by aliens while losing their welders which they sank 5 pres in isn't really fun. It just distracting marines while they are trying to help each other to give aliens an opening to stomp them.
Stop saying strip them of armor. That is not my intent nor have I ever stated that.
It may not be your intent but it will be the end result. Again, you seem to be in denial here. If this change won't strip marines of armor, then why do it? If it would have no effect on marine armor then it's a pointless change.
Marines should be able to be at full armor, but I find the frequency and ease of being at full armor IN THE FIELD is too high.
If that is really the case then you are only making the problem worse. If every marine carries a welder, then they will be able to be at full armor FAR MORE OFTEN then they are now. If anything, you should be advocating for welders NOT being able to be used to repair marine armor.
Do I need to quote you from above where you talk about marine armor increasing and alien damage not? You said above:
"The fundamental balance issue I am focusing on is that aliens damage does not scale against marine armor scaling."
So you are asking for alien damage scaling by reducing marine armor levels. If marine armor decreases then alien damage increases.
No, I am pretty sure alien damage stays the same. Might want to check the math on that.
Glad to..
Marine with 100 health and 90 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 70 health and 64 armor. The skulk has done 56 points of damage to the marine.
Marine with 100 health and 0 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 25 health and 0 armor. The skulk has done 75 points of damage to the marine.
Two situations, and in the second situation the skulk has done MORE damage with a single bite. The skulks damage has scaled higher with the lack of marine armor.
This, my dear friend, is why armor is so important from a balance perspective.
To reiterate for the last time: Forward. Armories. Are. Stupid.
Then you are advocating for the WRONG side, and I'll tell you why.
Let's pretend this change somehow gets in, despite Charlie previously rejecting it. Now you have marines with welders. They scuffle with aliens and then weld themselves all right back up. No armory, no return to base. Boom, instant full armor. How does this help your position about marines being at full armor? Removing armor repair from the armory could very well invoke a paradoxical reaction, and you'll only be worse off.
If you are bothered by forward armories, then go after that instead of trying to alter fundamental game mechanics. Don't like marines getting armor from a forward armory? Then only allow it in a room with a tech point and command chair. Problem solved.
Comments
Once A2/A3 is up it's pretty absurd. I can't really agree.
There is a game that sits right in the TOP10 most-played games on Steam.
It's called Left 4 Dead. In this game, you HAVE to help your team mates when they are pinned down by the hunter, strangled by the smoker, ridden by the jockey or pounded by the charger...
But lemme guess: That's no fun! You'd rather wander off, mind your own business, shoot some zombies or rush and use up all the healing items - thereby leaving your mates to die because where is the fun in helping them up? That would be WORK, and those stupid game designers shouldn't force that down your throat.
As an egotistical unsocial douchebrag you don't give a shit about the other 3 survivors. You got yours; why don't these useless moochers get their own, right?
It's not your fault that you're so 1337 (after all, you reached all those medkits FIRST, they are yours now) while the others obviously need to L2P...
...if you ever played Left 4 Dead with that kind of attitude towards team play, you must have been REALLY popular kicked A LOT.
PS: If this forum supports it, just put up a vote at the start of the thread. I'm quite tired of Savant's trademarked argument by volume.
Then another patch brought back armor-healing, and boy was that a sigh of relief.
Flayra once said if aliens can have their armor heal at the hive, so should Marines.
Armory's rate of restoring health was tweaked so that the more it was used, the less times it restored health. Almost similar to TF2 Engie dispenser having to recharge after x-amount of usage.
That said, I highly doubt this change will make another appearance.
If you reeeeally want hit-and-run tactics exemplified,
then implement a form of Focus ability (2 hits = 1 attack, but reduced rate of fire). It doesn't have to be an upgrade, it could even be lifeform-based.
What if guyz cud buy welders as res-sinks becuz sum ppl lyk welding and its fun? THen also we wudnt see lots of robots and gunz and tings. Theres a lot of dem alredy! I lyk shooting w/o shotguns sumtimes anyway!
Also mebe fightin wud be more fun becuz the guyz wudnt be lookin at the armory thingy all da time?
WAIT, what if mebe it cud be a little bit lyk were weldin was good but not OP and sum ppl did it and sum ppl didnt and eveyrthing was ok? Also dese MAC thingies sound KOOL and really aysmetrical! Also its diffrent from NS1 which is gud becuz that game was BROKEN. Rember wen guyz never welded? SO ANOYIN!
WAIT AGAIN, mebe u cud have lyk some armor upgrade thingy for the advanced thingy that costs sumting so not all armorys have the armor upgrade thingy but base can still have armor thingy? Dat way, its not OP forward armory everywere but ppl can still get free armor by da tym rhinos and fades cum out? Mebe we cud all be a bit happy den???? I dnno.
WAIT 1 MORE TYM! Wen dese other changes cum in, mebe dis idea cud pretty gud, no? Lyk dat 1 were ppl dont cum to life as fast. Dat cud mebe help!! Were prtty lucky dat other things are changin guyz otherwise balance cud go to lyk 80/20 for aliens.
Just so youguyz know, I am workin on sum secret game where I make lots of ideas so im pretty gud at dis kinda thing ok? I cant say wat it iz becuz the game is alredy so gud but trust me guyz, im a pro.
ALRIGHT DEN, dats just my ideas for da tym being! Hope u enjy!
In terms of pRes purchases, the pRes maximum is too low, and the maximum pRes income is too slow, for the concept of a res sink to ever apply to that currency.
No.
That's the difference. The first example isn't really a sacrifice. The second is. THAT is team work.
You want to TAKE AWAY something from the marines in NS2 for no other reason than some lame 'team work' excuse. To use your L4D2 analogy it would be like the game FORCING a player to give up their pills and medkit when someone is low on health. Or it would be like saying your pills and medkit can only be used on OTHER players and not yourself.
What makes L4D2 a great game is that people are given the CHOICE to help others by giving up their consumables. It's a personal sacrifice and people appreciate it when it happens because they know the person is making that choice because they WANT to and not because they HAVE to. If someone uses a medkit on you, and you have already used pills AND a medkit already, you will appreciate that gesture since you know that they are giving something up that they should rightfully be using for themselves.
That is how it is now in NS2. If someone buys a welder it's a personal sacrifice by CHOICE. If you remove armor repair at the armory it ceases to become a choice and becomes an obligation since it's the only way to heal up.
That's not 'team work'. It's forced and totally contrived. That's the difference.
If I hadn't made it clear already, I am unable to conceptualise the other side of the coin, as it were. In order for me to comprehend and understand a hypothesis contrary to my own, I would require information and inspiration from an external source.
How about this instead. Change the main menu in NS2 to allow a vote - just like they do in L4D2, and ask "Do you want armor repair removed from the armory so that marine armor can only be repaired by a welder? (which still must be purchased from the armory for 5 personal resources)"
You think most people would vote yes? Heh, I don't think so. You talk about posts by volume, it's the same people here who want to shaft the general player base that are trying to do that. Talk to the 'average player' and see what they want. I think you'll be in for a shock if you believe that they would agree with this.
This creates an odd dynamic, where the location at which you are most likely to first gain the ability to research the upgrade (marine spawn), is the location where you are least likely to require it.
While one could view this is a potential trade off mechanic (which do a great job in increasing tactical complexity), I would define it as a "stupid" tradeoff. That is to say that it is a tradeoff which requires you to build a high cost, high importance structure in a high risk location. It forces a player to be tactically stupid, which is highly unintuitive.
I mostly think you should stop speaking for anyone but yourself. Your feelings are your own and if people agree with them, great, but that is their choice not yours. Assuming you know what people want is trite politician style bull. Now, I'm not saying I know either but what we are seeing in this thread is a tiny VOCAL cross section of the community. It is by no means representative of the whole. Any claims of what "joe plumber" wants is speculative at best and just makes you a maverick.
I believe there is a balance issue that is buried under layers of other problems. That issue is marine armor, and we got to see just the very tip of the iceberg with the skulk movement changes the past few builds. This problem resonates all throughout the game and to other lifeforms as well, not just the skulk. This is my opinion, and I speak for no one but me.
P.S. Please fix where you quoted Hamlet above but it has my handle. I prefer to only be quoted for things I actually said.
How is it different from forcing Aliens to build Shifts and Crags near places they are trying to assault or defend, though?
The main point though is that unless the Marines are confident they can hold a location, it will force Marines to phase back to their base for armor repairs, unless they have welders with them. Moreover, as it is, placing an armory in a forward position gives Marines a very cheap way to increase their longevity by several factors. They should have to pay for the luxury, whether that is via welders or upgrading the armory, it matters not.
I only speak for myself here. However, I'm not assuming what people want, I'm going from personal experience. You do know I work in this business right? I've been in it from the early days when I was beta testing the *original* Half-Life when I worked with Sierra. Although I speak for myself I do generally know what the public wants since if I didn't I wouldn't have a job. The public is very fickle when it comes to video games, and any developer who ignores that does that at their own peril. I've seen many a game sink at launch since the developer thought they 'knew better'.
Sorry, I disagree. Marine armor (and alien armor for that matter) is something that cannot be screwed with on a whim.
What you don't seem to acknowledge is that armor (any armor) is part of FUNDAMENTAL game balance. It's how you balance fights between two different units. It allows you to have one unit (with a given weapon) do more (or less) damage to an opponent compared to another unit or weapon.
Example. If you have a marine with a pistol out and he fires on a Fade, the Fade's armor will absorb 4 points of damage for each point of armor. The pistol, that normally does 25 light damage per bullet, only delivers an effective damage of 6.25 versus Fade armor. However, the LMG, does 10 normal damage per bullet. In this case the Fade armor will absorb 2 points of damage for each point of armor. So that's an effective 5 damage per point of armor. See how that works? Had armor not been present, the pistol would have done 25 damage per bullet and the LMG 10 damage per bullet. Everyone would have their pistol out since the pistol would be overpowered.
A carapace skulk has an effective health of 190 versus a pistol, while that same skulk has an effective health of only 140 versus an LMG. This is what armor does. It provides a means to BALANCE various matchups.
If you artificially create a situation where a player is running around without armor, then you have BROKEN THE GAME. All of those finely tuned balance calculations are thrown out the window since armor is gone.
The marine that took 4 bites to kill with armor only takes 2 bites to kill. This is a major imbalance.
So no, marine armor is not a 'problem'. Marine armor is a fundamental part of gameplay. If there are balance issues, then they have to be corrected without stripping marines of their armor.
This game cannot work by nerfing one side and the nerfing the other to fix it. You are basically saying that the issues lies with marine armor when aliens were stomping with skulks before they got nerfed in terms of movement. Some skulks cannot even get close to good marines because of their limited movement. Others are clamoring for the skulk game play to become more enjoyable and this is an aspect Sewlek's mod addresses. So the solution is nerf the marine armories? Wasn't the main argument that this change would promote good teamwork by having marines weld each other so there would be no issue? How exactly do you expect this to help the aliens if that is the case?
Though I like the suggestion of placing a poll on the main game left4dead 2 style to settle that part of the argument. Who can say anything if the 1.6k concurrent players say they want the change in?
I understand wanting to add credibility to your argument by stating your work experience, and I am well aware you work in the industry, but that doesn't make your suppositions immediately right. In fact, when I read it it feels like trying to throw unnecessary weight behind your argument rather than try to let your ideas speak for themselves. I like to naively assume that people who post on the forums spend a reasonable amount of time playing the game and I use that as a baseline level of credibility so I can focus more on the ideas they postulate rather than them as a person. Trying to throw extra credibility where it isn't needed is just inviting a torrent of ad hominem arguments, and these forums need less of that.
tl;dr Stating your work experience is largely irrelevant to me when I find I don't agree with your arguments based on their own inherent implications.
No one is stripping marines of their armor. The fundamental balance issue I am focusing on is that aliens damage does not scale against marine armor scaling. As the game goes on the alien team requires more skill to compete. The marginal skill between aliens and marines required as the game progresses is not parallel. There are other problems, like the onos, that are covering up this issue. The solution is not to completely remove armor scaling or armor itself from marines, but to create situations where they aren't always at full. Effectively, actually making hit and run tactics work. The offender I am pointing to is the armory. As it is now, there is no reason not to have them peppered all over the map and no reason for a marine to not be at full armor. For a 10 TRes structure they are way too good.
This isn't a change that can be blindly thrown into the game in its current state.
That's other people's arguments not mine. The skulk as it was pre-movement nerf was pretty ridiculous. It had overly erratic movement and it was way too forgiving. If you missed your target... INSTANT MID AIR 180 and you were back in position. People are probably just too used to being able to barrel in and move erratically to kill marines. Movement is now more deliberate, though the case can definitely be made for it also being less fun now. The answer is not to revert back to the earlier iteration but to find a happy medium.
Now, to tie this into the tip of the iceberg statement. As the game goes on the skulk is less and less effective, not only because it can be killed faster (more weapon types and weapon upgrades) but also because marines have more armor so TTK rises. That armor is almost always full. How often as a marine do you run around with armor missing? I know if I am low on armor and I see an armory, I am going to hump the hell out of it. Right down to it, I think that as the game progresses the level of skill required by the alien team on the ground (the FPS players) is far greater than what is required by the marines at the same time and tech level.
A happy medium would be nice but I guess that is still up in the air.
As for the skulk becoming useless late game I agree. So this is why a strong initial offense is important to guarantee those later lifeforms. But back to the skulk. I also feel the thing should scale a bit better late game. Not too much to be extremely ridiculously powerful to easily take out Jetpack marine with SG (If they improve skulk movement and scale it a bit better it should have a decent chance). But enough to deal with a typical LMG W3 A3 marine on equal grounds. So yea either a form of Focus returns with more armor/health as you get more hives or as an upgrade to skulks in general that the Kham can research for a price. Why risk frustrating marine players or forcing them to buy welders when you can just give the skulks an alternate buff late game? There are so many less annoying ways to fix the late game skulk instead of just flat out nerfing the marine armories.
It was reverted but everyone did not hate it, it was a controversial argument then like it is now. The game was in a much worse place all around at the time.
You're trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver here. First off, alien damage doesn't scale since this is an asymmetric game. It's why a skulk is more powerful in the early game and not as much in the late game. That's why aliens have advanced lifeforms, to fill in the gap later on. If skulks scaled so they were just as deadly in the late game as in the early game, then why bother with advanced lifeforms?
The alien gameplay has to change as the game goes on. That's what the developers have built into the game. The early game skulk that was out killing marines is not going to live long going after jetpack/shottie marines appear. That is *intended*. If the marine is spending 30 res on equipment, then a 0 res skulk is going to be outmatched. That is *intended*. This is why skulks need to go after marine ASSETS more in the later game. One can't understate how significant it is to have skulks taking down extractors constantly in the later game. Or going after power nodes. With celerity and leap skulks can cross the map in seconds. Marines can't compete with that, not even with phase gates.
Marines get more armor later on since they don't get advanced lifeforms. They don't get to change to another class with more effective health . (barring the EXO - which is an end-game unit like the Onos)
Honestly, aliens have gotten lazy and want everything given to them on a platter. Marines have too much armor? Well instead of moaning about it, hit their main and kill the arms lab. Even if you don't manage to do so, you'll likely trigger a beacon and force them to burn 15 res. It's the same for marines. If aliens are too hard to kill marines are quite welcome to try and take out the carapace shell - if they can find it, and if there are no redundant ones.
The real problem here is that you treating a game challenge as a balance issue when it is not. If an armory is making marines too strong, group up and kill it. No more armor repair until marines rebuild. This is why standard armories are EASIER to kill than advanced armories.
If the armory was an indestructible structure, then you might have a point. It's not though. If you have two skulks they can kill an armory in only SEVEN SECONDS. (three skulks bring that to under 5 seconds) Unless the marines are literally sitting on top of it, you should have no problem making the kill. Add in a gorge with bile bomb and it cuts that time to 3 seconds. Not rocket science here.
So instead of nerfing the armory, why not go and ATTACK it?
The thing is, I don't think it is an issue with just the skulk, the fade has the same problem. Especially now that the shotgun is an orbital strike cannon that utterly decimates them when they are in melee range. While the fade is still extremely effective at picking off stragglers, attacking an entrenched forward position with an armory is pretty difficult as any damage you do when blinking in and then escaping will be pretty quickly nullified by the sheer power of an armory.
To me, it feels like the alien team needs a disproportionately high level of teamwork to break a forward armory turtle. With the bile nerf this is showing a little more prominently, and would be glaring, I believe, once the Onos isn't so ridiculous (ie multiple onos at a time).
If we need to make welders or MACs more accessible to reduce tedium so be it. The game should be fun, but it shouldn't hold my hand either.
I am not, nor have a ever asked for alien DAMAGE scaling. I like that the game doesn't have it. As the game goes on alien playstyle has to adapt to marine upgrades. However, because armor is effectively always at full, they don't just have to adapt but work HARDER to achieve the same results. Having an armor value that can decrease as a marine is attacked screams hit and run tactics to me. However, as soon as you withdrawl, all the marines can just look at the armory for a second and be good to go at full strength again.
See above, I know it is intended but it is currently harsher than it needs to be. Especially considering the baseline marine scales far beyond the baseline skulk at endgame. This is a matter of obsolescence and snowballing.
This ignores the massively increased firepower marines get. There is more to it than a direct comparison to alien lifeforms. Honestly, with a shotgun and jetpack the marine is effectively a different class as it plays and moves vastly different than the base LMG marine. Your statement is a vast oversimplification of an equipment based system vs a class system.
... Sigh.
Let's not ignore the fact they are only 10 TRes, have a low build time, and are baseline tech available at all points in the game. They are hands down the most powerful structure the marines have and to top it off they are dirt cheap. When it comes down to supporting a forward position the comm has two choices, drop meds and ammo at 1 TRes per or just drop the infinite vending machine at a one time cost of 10 TRes that also has the benefit of restoring armor. The choice 9 times out of 10 is a no brainer. Armory all day every day.
This was removed.
On the one hand you say you want situations where marine armor level isn't always full. Well as it stands - since marines don't carry around an amory on their back - you have that NOW. Then you suggest that making marines pay for and carry welders will achieve that, despite welders being MORE portable than armories. Frankly, the suggestion itself is defeatist on its face.
However, the reality is still that your intent is to strip marines or armor to weaken them as a unit. If that wasn't your intent then your change would accomplish NOTHING. If you don't want to strip marines of armor, then you should have no problem with them repairing their armor at an armory.
As I've said before, and you may have missed it, I would accept this change if it had NO COST to the marine. If you want to yank armor repair and give marines a free welder in their loadout when they spawn, then I could accept that. The problem is that not only do you want to strip marines of armor, you want them to PAY to repair it.
Seriously? You can't expect me to accept a set of circumstances where one team can repair to full for FREE at any time without need of another player, and then say the other team's players can't repair their armor at all (alone) and must depend on other players who have to spend resources. It's completely unbalanced.
By nerfing marines (let's call it what it is, a big nerf) you are most certainly asking for damage scaling. Do I need to quote you from above where you talk about marine armor increasing and alien damage not? You said above:
"The fundamental balance issue I am focusing on is that aliens damage does not scale against marine armor scaling."
So you are asking for alien damage scaling by reducing marine armor levels. If marine armor decreases then alien damage increases. It is NOT always at full, and repeating the same inaccuracy over and over won't make it true. Any time a marine leaves a base they are vulnerable. Marines don't normally carry welders which means they are NOT always at full armor. The only time a marine is at full armor is when they return to a base, and in that case they DESERVE to be at full armor since they are in a defensive position.
It doesn't matter what side you are on, when you return to your base you should be able to heal up. Period. No cost, no hassle. If you want to change that then it must be changed for BOTH sides.
It doesn't ignore anything. You are ignoring the fact that this increased firepower is on a standard marine. With aliens you can evolve to a Fade and not only do you get better damage, you get more health/armor. With a marine he will *ALWAYS* have 100 health. Always. His armor may increase during the game, but he is just as easy to kill in the late game when aliens use advanced lifeforms.
Low build time?
The armory is a 'standard' build time of 12 seconds. If you group the 13 second build time of the Robotics Factory in with the Extractor and the Phase Gate, there are things that build faster and some that build slower. I wouldn't call 12 seconds a 'low build time' by any stretch of the imagination.
As for the cost, 10 t-res is still 10 t-res. Guess what? It costs EXACTLY the same amount as a crag, and it does the same thing. Oh wait, no it doesn't. The crag doesn't provide ammo since aliens don't NEED ammo, marines do and are dependant on that. Lemme guess you want to take away ammo from the armory too?
Hey why don't we go back to the NS1 days when the armory didn't do anything and the commander had to drop it all? Or, we can accept that this is a new game and it comes with new challenges. If that was true - which it isn't - then logic would dictate that the "most powerful structure" would also be the biggest target. Yet surprisingly the aliens don't go for the armory first in most cases. That's because it's not nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. If it was then it would be target #1 for the aliens.
Please quote me where I said anything about making marines pay for welders. In fact you'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. In fact a few posts above I stated that if MACs and welders needed to be made more accessible then so be it. Stop putting words into my mouth. Seriously.
Stop saying strip them of armor. That is not my intent nor have I ever stated that. Marines should be able to be at full armor, but I find the frequency and ease of being at full armor IN THE FIELD is too high. My problem is the armory is the jack of all damn trades and you can go to it for all your replenishment needs. It is dirt cheap, can be placed easily on the front lines, and its only prerequisite is power.
Once again, I am not arguing that point. But we can go in circles if you like and get absolutely no where. Let me state it again: "In fact you'll probably find I said in previous posts that I would be cool with adv armory giving armor. In fact a few posts above I stated that if MACs and welders needed to be made more accessible then so be it."
No. I am not. Stop putting words into my mouth. Seriously. Damage scaling would imply that the aliens damage increases throughout the game. I am asking for it to stay the same but allow a playstyle change to make up for it. Marines can far too easily replenish armor in forward positions so there is no playstyle change, it is just straight up harder. And yes it is a nerf, thanks for the obvious.
No, I am pretty sure alien damage stays the same. Might want to check the math on that.
Fine, I will reduce my obvious hyperbole for the sake of argument to "almost always".
For the third time, I am not arguing against this. To reiterate for the last time: Forward. Armories. Are. Stupid.
12 seconds is not a long time and it is reduced for every additional marine building it.
Oh look, more words I didn't say and assumptions about how I feel. The crag also requires a cyst chain connected to a hive which costs TRes and it takes multiple crags to match the heal rate of an armory without the use of healwave (a TRes activated ability). In all honesty with the mobility of the aliens often times it is quicker to just return to a hive.
I am not trying to change your mind. I am merely trying to keep my argument from being fallaciously misrepresented. I am growing pretty tired of correcting things I did not say.
So why don't we cut all the crap and just give marines auto-regeneration. We can adopt the casualization meme of COD etc and give everyone an auto-heal once they're out of combat for a few seconds. It works for those games right? And besides, aliens already have auto-regen, why should marines be stuck with the lame burden of running around to armories?
Totally unbalanced game, i tell you.
As a fade if you got 1 marine at an armory you can easily take him down. Now if you got several marines you are going to need some help and why shouldn't you? Teamwork is needed for aliens as well one fade should not be able to destroy an entire marine squad who bought weapons with their own pres. Would a 50 pres exo be able to take down an entire alien group? In addition aliens are fast and have many options open to them. You can easily destroy forward bases by sending a group where marines are not and forcing them to becon.
"If we need to make welders or MACs more accessible to reduce tedium so be it."
Reduce tedium? So basically add tedium for marines and reduce tedium for aliens? I really want to know how it will reduce tedium for you? From my view I feel like you are saying that marines will just become easier targets for fades and aliens because of attempting to weld each other? Because that just adds frustration to marines. Attempting to use "teamwork" and being destroyed by aliens while losing their welders which they sank 5 pres in isn't really fun. It just distracting marines while they are trying to help each other to give aliens an opening to stomp them.
Glad to..
Marine with 100 health and 90 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 70 health and 64 armor. The skulk has done 56 points of damage to the marine.
Marine with 100 health and 0 armor gets bitten by a skulk. The marine is now at 25 health and 0 armor. The skulk has done 75 points of damage to the marine.
Two situations, and in the second situation the skulk has done MORE damage with a single bite. The skulks damage has scaled higher with the lack of marine armor.
This, my dear friend, is why armor is so important from a balance perspective.
Then you are advocating for the WRONG side, and I'll tell you why.
Let's pretend this change somehow gets in, despite Charlie previously rejecting it. Now you have marines with welders. They scuffle with aliens and then weld themselves all right back up. No armory, no return to base. Boom, instant full armor. How does this help your position about marines being at full armor? Removing armor repair from the armory could very well invoke a paradoxical reaction, and you'll only be worse off.
If you are bothered by forward armories, then go after that instead of trying to alter fundamental game mechanics. Don't like marines getting armor from a forward armory? Then only allow it in a room with a tech point and command chair. Problem solved.