Competitive Matches - Tech Trees
DeskLamp
Australia Join Date: 2013-02-03 Member: 182783Members
Australia Join Date: 2013-02-03 Member: 182783Members
I've been watching quite a few NS2 competitive matches lately and have not seen much, if any, use of more advanced tech capabilities from teams with regards to Exo's, advanced weapons like Flamethrowers (Occasionally Grenade Launchers get used), and Gorge Tunnels (I know babblers aren't extremely useful at present).
I realise that often the reason for this falls on the expense and mobility of these units but I'm curious as to whether, given the changes recently, there are any viable strategies to use them, or if competitive teams have experimented using them in matches? Are there any occasions where a competitive team would use these things?
I realise that often the reason for this falls on the expense and mobility of these units but I'm curious as to whether, given the changes recently, there are any viable strategies to use them, or if competitive teams have experimented using them in matches? Are there any occasions where a competitive team would use these things?
Comments
Competitive play has really good players who will destroy you for using weapons that suck.
It would also be cool if strategies revolving around grenade spam could actually be viable early game when sacrificing things like phase-gates, or armor/weapon upgrades similar to a shotgun rush... Not that I have seen one in pro league matches.
You'll never see it. Flamethrowers and Vortex literally have no purpose right now... I mean the only thing ft's are good for is destroying infestation really. Everything else you can do pretty much just as well with a shotgun.
FTs are great for killing cysts(one tap is all it takes), but the problem is that their DoT is weak, and their DPS is paltry at best.
Maybe if their DoT did more damage, or a direct barrage of flames to the face did more than 70 damage a second they'd be worth using in a PVP environment, but at it stands, flamethrowers are a purely PVE weapon, and even then, grenade launchers are more effective at killing structures.
Nexzil has tried out Grenade Launchers, but they are either still on the fence about it or have dropped it.
Single arm exos are not used
Rail gun exos are unexplored (Probably too big of a commitment)
Flamethrowers are garbage and are not used
By the time you have any of the third hive abilities, you probably already won. If the case that you haven't won, Vortex and Xeno are largely useless.
Dual exos are used occasionally, but for the most part are unplanned for because of their high pres cost (Not worth saving up for, but end game if you've recycled your shotgun enough, go for it)
In 8v8 pubs and above, flamethrowers are handy to have in a strike group in order to burn down alien structures.
It should be at least 7v7.
I realise that 5v5/6v6 has been the standard for comp play for years, but with a game like NS2, it could really benefit from an extra body on each team.
Everything he said. Flamethrower is awesome, just not in 6vs6 games.
Vortex is a different story though.
(edit for clarity: I don't agree!)
Fun part starts at 17:00->
http://www.twitch.tv/ns2fi/b/370617265
They could definitely work in competitive games, I think people are just too afraid to stray away from their normal routine at the moment. Sometimes it takes a creative team like Exertus to try out different tactics.
A reduction in their cost wouldn't be a bad idea, little too expensive currently.
This turns most of them into bad counters for the most part. . .
60s is a long time to wait for a weapon that is good at 2 things and is pretty much is an instantly dropped weapon without jetpacks
Other tech is just not worthy of the 6on6
Tech that would get used just isn't available without mods (flamethrower + railgun exo)
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6v6 works well for competitive imo, but it's an interesting point. Has anyone ever played comp with more players? The best and most active teams are geared towards having enough players for 6v6, so some would probably need to recruit more before games of 8v8 were viable anyway.
I think exos are actually really good but they're limited by their mobility (beacon / phase) which makes them close to useless against an organized team. if you put the exo on defense he'll just get dragged between bases, and if you put him on the offensive then the option to force a beacon is always there
I think gorge tunnels were a complete mistake. it's much better to focus on overcoming alien mobility through movement mechanics (walljump / bunnyhop), because it scales with skill without spoonfeeding the aliens a solution. it's actually amazing how the response to marine split-pressure is to give aliens their own phase gate instead of having a proper movement system.
I don't see much good coming from gorge tunnels from a gameplay perspective. if it's too expensive it will just remain in the game as another half-fleshed out feature for people to say "but you have gorge tunnels!" whenever someone references the lack of alien mobility. it looks like it's following in the footsteps of the Shift and the still non-functional spawning system.
on the other hand, if it's cheap enough to be researched and used early game it basically just takes a huge portion of skill out of the game (not just in movement but in predicting enemy attacks) and leaves a void where there could have been interesting gameplay and skill.
Flamethrowers are terrible against structures. They do bonus damage vs cysts and anything a gorge makes, but against kham buildings they do less dps than a shotgun, maybe even less than an LMG. I don't know anything about competitive, but the main reason I like to have a flamethrower in a pub is that it prevents onos and fades from getting away. Not so good at killing them by itself, it means that any energy they spend attacking doesn't regen fast enough to help them, so they are left retreating without charge or blink, plus being on fire means they can't get away with 1hp either.
Imagine a low skill player. They get a shotgun. They will likely just die. It's hard to aim with, and has a long time between shots. They will think the shotgun sucks. Sure, it technically has a high DPS, but not if you miss your shots! Now give them a flamethrower or GL. They will love it. It's much easier to aim with. It technically has a lower DPS against players, but because they can actually hit things with it, the DPS actually goes up for that particular player.
Now imagine the pro player. It's the opposite situation. They can aim and get kills with the shotgun. The flamethrower is objectively worse if you can aim. So pro players will never buy a flamethrower.
Think about some fighting games. Some characters might be easy to use and win with, so everyone starts with them. But there is another character that is hard to use, but when used properly is much more powerful. You will notice that pro players will all use that character. None of them will use the easy character.
If you want to get pro players to use higher technology, and for it to be fair, this is what you have to do. Create some incredibly powerful technology that is incredibly difficult to use. It should have great power, greater than any other option, but should fail unless the user is very very good. Imagine something along the lines of a very powerful marine melee weapon that is very very slow, but does a very high amount of damage.
If correct, this is strong evidence that UWE needs to do a lot of work to add strategic depth to the game.
And to make the early game less decisive.
6v6 works for comp play in games where one player is not removed from the game.
The maps are too large for 5v5(The commander doesn't really count all that much).
I will concede that 5v5 puts more emphasis on personal skill, which is kinda the point of competitive play, but at the same time, too few people leads to boring gameplay(From as spectators perspective).
I know that in a competitive scene they are mostly useless. But it would be awesome if some Pro team finally found a way to use them to effect and actually win a match because of it and blow us all away!
For example while running around on my own server ( Base NS2 no mods ), I consistently managed to kill a spawned* in Onos with a single flamethrower clip by constantly moving the mouse from the floor to the onos. I think it somehow doubled the amount of damage coming off of it by re-applying the flame stacks on the Onos and refreshing the ground AOE damage effect ( Although this would be hard to pull off properly in-game). Using this same method I was able to dps down alien structures extremely fast. Although it does not work on the hive unless you can reach the roof to apply the Area effect there next to one of the supporting tendrils.
The area to be damaged within these AOEs is really-really small though. Be good if they pumped it up a bit so you can still be damaged while jumping through them. Painting* the ground around the feet of other marines with these flame AOEs was working pretty well for me in NS2 Combat so maybe UW is slowly trying to change the role of the flamer.
Vortex has some potential uses, like vortexing the arms lab so you can 2 swipe people for a little bit.. it's just too expensive/comes too late in the game.