Restructuring NA Division 1 (xpost from ensl)
xtcmen
Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
http://www.ensl.org/topics/684
The current seedings do not reflect the accurate skill levels of the teams placed in the division. Here is my proposal:
Create three different divisions.
Put only one group in Division 1 with the following 6 teams:
Nxzl
inversion
dn
bklub
KKG
ALL-in
Division 2 should include the other 6 teams from Division 1 plus a few others:
Ready up
atrox
156
CIB Highwind
CIB Goliath
DTPN
dys
Divison 3 should include the rest.
The reasons being there is a huge skill gap between my proposed division 1 teams and the other 6. For example: Instead of having nxzl, inversion, KKG and bklub go 4-0 against team 156 and CIB Highwind, I think it would be better for us to play against DN and All-in instead. On the other side, it would be better to have CIB, Atrox, Ready up, and 156 to play against eachother. These matches would be more fair, and more fun for people to spectate.
I know week 1 is this following weekend. But if there is anyway we can make this change and possible delay the season by 1 week that would be great.
The current seedings do not reflect the accurate skill levels of the teams placed in the division. Here is my proposal:
Create three different divisions.
Put only one group in Division 1 with the following 6 teams:
Nxzl
inversion
dn
bklub
KKG
ALL-in
Division 2 should include the other 6 teams from Division 1 plus a few others:
Ready up
atrox
156
CIB Highwind
CIB Goliath
DTPN
dys
Divison 3 should include the rest.
The reasons being there is a huge skill gap between my proposed division 1 teams and the other 6. For example: Instead of having nxzl, inversion, KKG and bklub go 4-0 against team 156 and CIB Highwind, I think it would be better for us to play against DN and All-in instead. On the other side, it would be better to have CIB, Atrox, Ready up, and 156 to play against eachother. These matches would be more fair, and more fun for people to spectate.
I know week 1 is this following weekend. But if there is anyway we can make this change and possible delay the season by 1 week that would be great.
Comments
the rest of the seeding gets arranged according to pure mathematics,
without any logic and game no sense.
and the data those are calculated from are counterfeit and manipulated too.
some teams where able to play as many seeding matches as they need to
get into the division they wanted to end up and others got hindered like hell by him
ensl=swalks insider party
Div 1:
Group A
Group B
There would be only three teams in each group (with 6 teams in one division). In the current format divisions do not play each other so you would have to rework the playoffs to be exciting or fair. There is a 4 team playoff for each division as of right now, right? Having a Div 1 final where the two teams are already 1/3 of the whole division seems kind of skewed or unexciting.
In my mind, the lower level teams have an even higher chance of folding, I don't know the exact number of teams you would end up with in the lowest division.
I understand there is a skill gap, and your divisions probably accurately reflect the skill levels. But overall, I think the fragmentation is unhealthy. I undertand no one likes seeing 2-0 where they get purely outplayed and outkilled but I am not sure we have enough people playing to make true parity for even one division.
@derWalter
I heard that bitey/zefram remade the seeds for the NA divisions. But I'm not sure.
On top of this, you tried to further bypass the rules by playing more than the maximum allowed seeding matches. And now you wonder why I was so strict on you on the subject of seedings? And then afterwards you degenerate to posting a lie like that here, what is wrong with you? I think I might know the case you are refering to, NeXuS Gaming getting moved down to division 2, together with the teams that beat them in seeding matches. These teams were allowed to play another seeding match due to the circumstances. This was discussed by admins and it was a decision we made together with NeXuS to make the division split more fair.
So why do I only hear this now? You know you have to contact admins if you want to pull out of the season. You disappoint me greatly.
In regards to the OP, this is not going to happen. The NA side didn't even have enough teams to fill out the larger division sizes with only 24 teams(ie. 16 teams split into 2 groups of 8). So NA got 12 team divisions split into groups of 6, just like season 1. These division sizes obviously have a skillgap from the top teams to the lower skilled teams of a division, you must learn to accept that. Someone have to be in division 1 with the top teams. Only one of the new teams from the NA region even bothered to play any seeding matches. CiB. So we only had seedings for 11 teams of the NA region, the rest got random seedings below these 11 seedings we had.
D1 = Seeds 1-6
D2 = Seeds 7-12
D3 = Seeds 13-18
D4 = Seeds 19-24
The end of season matchups would be four, 4-team playoffs where:
D1 = Top 4 teams from D1
D1/2 = Bottom 2 teams from D1 + Top 2 teams from D2
D2/3 = Bottom 2 teams from D2 + Top 2 teams from D3
D3/4 = Bottom 2 teams from D3 + Top 2 teams from D4
This system would also take care of the between season up/down matchups.
srsly if u got no clue about the game or how ensl is organized u shouldnt post anything.
ppl like u r the biggest shame in NS2 ....
but u cant get ride of all the haters, haters gonna hate.
Swalk isnt doing any of the seedings byhimself, there many more admins which r doing it.
ensl got a system of multiadmins to prevent abuse and stuff like this, but instead of asking ... flaming is the better way.
u should just face realtiy that your team is far away from playing in division 1
D1 = Top 4 teams from D1
D1/2 = Bottom 2 teams from D1 + Top 2 teams from D2
D2/3 = Mid 2 teams from D2 + Top 2 teams from D3
D3/4 = Mid 2 teams from D3 + Top 2 teams from D4
The only bottom teams in a playoff would be in D1 (which is a nice incentive for teams to get into the top division). However, in all of the other divisions, the top 4 teams would either play against the mid-level teams in the higher division or the top teams in a lower division.
You win leagues by having the best win/loss score. You win cups by having semifinals and finals.
This is just my preference though, I think it's a shame that we, coolclan, won't be able to face Arc, duplex and, hm.. well the site is down. We miss out facing half the teams that are actually around our level! I can't speak on behalf of the other teams, but I bet the top teams in group A would like to face the top teams in group B, and vice versa,as well.
At least consider it for season 3. Please.
Comparing the NA div 1 lower seeds with the EU div 1 lower seeds, there is also a difference here. The NA div 1 lower teams seem to not want to be in div 1. But the EU div 1 lower seeds have a strong desire to be there. I don't think we are going to change the way the divisions work. Having wide competetion generally improves the overall scene. What you're asking wiry, is quite selfish. If the demand is high for it, we might bring back the 12-team divisions - split into two groups of 6, like in season 1. But I personally prefer the larger divisions, wider competetion and longer season.
Maybe the reason for the euro teams wanting to be there more is because there are so many, thus the top of div 2 is much closer to division 1. In NA, the bottom of Div one is MUCH worse then the top of divison 1.
I really disagree that its healthy for the scene to have teams getting steamrolled. Sure its great to play teams that are better then you, but its not great to play teams that are so much better then you that you never get beyond your natural RTs and thats what you are setting up to happen in alot of cases. These kind of games lead to people feeling like whats the point in even playing, and thats when teams fold. This kind of skill gap in the divisions is what results in teams folding.
Of course some teams are more resilient to getting owned, but not alot of them.
I know this probably feels to some people like we are ungrateful for and bagging on all the ENSL's hard work but I think these are important concerns to address, and I apologize that nobody brought them forwards previous to this.
So winning the division means squat? Imagine splitting up the english premier league in two groups. It's ridiculous.
As opposed to having nail biting games every week?
If I were to win ENSL Division 1 if there only were top teams in that division, I would feel like I've made a huge accomplishment. Playing nail biting games every week and having to give it my all. Instead we have some mediocre division where half the games are stomps and playing those games with a "sigh, lets get it over with" mindset. The league would me MUCH more interesting were there to be actual competition EACH week, instead of half of the season. With the amount of talent the ACTUAL division 1 teams bring to the table I doubt there would be even close to a "was that it?" moment as the division would be much more even, coupled in with a few upsets and you might get to have your finals due to the top2 teams having equal score.
As to lower skilled teams facing higher skilled teams, I was under the assumption that there were PCW's for stuff like that. Getting rolled every week for a season doesn't sound very appealing at all.
If you so desperately want your semi/finals, make a cup.
Since we don't have individual leagues, that can "feed" a champions league, i think divisional play is the way to go. Also, as far as i know, US-leagues for Football and Basketball use divisions and playoffs as well.
It was a problem last season when I played in inversion. We basically had one game at our skill level until we got to the finals. It makes the entire season incredibly boring because there isn't even a chance of an upset. If you threw all of the top teams into the same group (All-in, Nxzl, DN, Bklub, then probably Atrox + another div 2 team) then you would have much better games every week. And you can still design your end tournament to contain these top 4 teams. Or you can run top 3 from d1 and top 1 from div2, if that concerns you.
I understand this season has just started and its not feasible, but we should definitely try and incorporate something like this in the future.
As far as I know, ENSL have always run their league like this, since the NS1 days. And frankly, I don't see a change to that coming. Having better and weaker opponents during the season is not really a problem, it occurs in sports as well. These matches can sometimes bring unexpected upsets, even if the lower team just takes one point off of the top team, that is still an upset in my eyes. And that can possibly also change who is getting the easier or harder game in the semifinals. That's why I think the larger division sizes are good, again widening the competetion and chances of upsets. And once again I want to express that there is NOT going to be cross-division play during the season, that is what the up/down matches between the seasons are for. I want to make one thing clear here, I am not speaking as the lead of the league here, I am speaking my personal opinions. Also, I am league admin, not the head admin of ENSL. I do not have the final calls. But my opinion is still to have AT LEAST the 12-team divisions if not the 16-team divisions. I would find 6-team divisions very boring due to the lack of different teams to play. Though before season 1 begun, 6-team divisions was a suggestion of mine but I changed my opinion on that after bHack convinced me about the 12-team divisions split into groups of 6 and trying the those division sizes. And I'm sure I will enjoy the 16-team divisions alot more than the 12-team divisions. They are more robust against teams dropping out of the season and have more possibilities for upsets.
The issue with this change is that you want to segregate a already small NA scene and effectively make it a 6 team thing. You should want to include the lower 6 teams in hopes that they strive to become better and can practice vs good teams in the lead up to league games vs nxzl etc, so that they can eventually compete and make the top level more diverse team wise.
Segregating the best teams now will only serve to widen the skill gap, resulting in those 6 teams playing eachother over and over, not just in league but scrims as well because lets face it its funner to play a close match then a stomp. I think everyone should work towards growing the scene instead of effectively shrinking it.
Think of every league ever, the patriots still gotta play the browns.
We're going to play for 6 weeks and have 1 competitive match. It's just a waste of a league, imo.
You can't compare apples to oranges. IMO, this change reflects SC2's system of Grandmasters / Masters.
Grandmasters only has 100 people, while Masters and the other leagues can have an unlimited amount of teams. We should make division 1 similar to SC2 Grandmasters... only the top teams should be in there. Throw the six best NA teams in division 1, and have the rest battle it out in division 2.
This is only similar to CAL-NS. There was one division with the best teams, then an open division for all the new teams. It worked quite well, I don't see why it won't work here. Why can't the division 2 teams strive to become better by playing people at their skill level? This change would also help division 2. Winning the Division 2 championships would actually be an accomplishment because its not full of new teams.
Plus, its hard enough to find a scrimm as it is. If a division 2 teams wants to play a Division 1 team, I don't see why they would say no.
You heard about it less than 8 hours after the decision was made.
I also do not understand your desire for an artificial size on divisions. any amateur league in any sport that i have ever come across groups teams based upon relative skill, not on an artificial size limit. It's not fun, it's not productive, it's not entertaining to watch, there is literally no reason other than some weird obsession with having even numbers.
To be fair nexzil doesnt have a equal in NA at the moment going off of the NSL Tourney results, and thus you wouldnt have any competitive matches anyway.
Inversion folded so now your down to 5 teams in the div btw. Cal-NS had more teams, and sc2 has a almost unlimited player pool, its not like the sc2 scene is on life support in north america so to speak.
So realistically division 1 should only consist of 4 teams, but this doesn't make much sense for a season setup like ENSL uses.
There really isn't a good answer to this unless the NA scene starts to grow, but at this point it appears to be shrinking due to a lack of motivation and disinterest in the game at a competitive level.
Regardless, a restructuring is probably a good idea to keep the teams on equal grounds. It will only discourage teams that are clearly not at a division 1 level to be placed as "fillers" just to make the divisions equal.
http://www.ensl.org/articles/756