Foresight removal

CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
So, what do you think about the removal of the khammander's Foresight?

It's not like I really miss it, but the absence still feels weird in some way. It was one of those nice asymmetric mechanics and actually gave the khammander something else to do (relaying information that the rest of the team otherwise doesn't have access to) than placing cysts. At least for marines walking on infestation could it have stayed.

Now your cysts are just mysteriously popping at some point without any indication to the khammander why that is. And it's not like marines are any closer to sneaky base building this way, since you still see the effects of Phase Gates, building structures and resupplying at Armories without any line of sight of your troops.
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Comments

  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    It was a really cool feature. But then again, that's what drifters are for.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    Would expect the effects to get removed soon also. Like you mentioned, you can see all of the building effects for every structure and power node. Marine commander can instantly see the alien start with the egg effect and can hear a hive drop.

    Don't understand the intention behind removing one without the other.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    Xarius wrote: »
    I don't get why they still haven't gotten rid of commanders seeing structure drops (blue effect of structure drops and green splashes for alien egg and structure drops) it kind of makes the whole 'find their hive' experience and 'surprise placements' pretty moot...

    Well, you can pretty much always tell where the Hive is based on where first contact occurs. If it was meant to be a secret, it's not a very well kept one.

  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Kopikat wrote: »
    Xarius wrote: »
    I don't get why they still haven't gotten rid of commanders seeing structure drops (blue effect of structure drops and green splashes for alien egg and structure drops) it kind of makes the whole 'find their hive' experience and 'surprise placements' pretty moot...

    Well, you can pretty much always tell where the Hive is based on where first contact occurs. If it was meant to be a secret, it's not a very well kept one.

    The aliens can obscure this if they wish though, as is common in competitive games. The comm shouldn't be able to actually see where it is with 100% certainty.
  • BigTracerBigTracer Join Date: 2012-12-04 Member: 174169Members
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Kopikat wrote: »
    Xarius wrote: »
    I don't get why they still haven't gotten rid of commanders seeing structure drops (blue effect of structure drops and green splashes for alien egg and structure drops) it kind of makes the whole 'find their hive' experience and 'surprise placements' pretty moot...

    Well, you can pretty much always tell where the Hive is based on where first contact occurs. If it was meant to be a secret, it's not a very well kept one.

    First contact is something your team has control over, you could go all sneaky and not immediately give away what direction you came from, particularly in organised play. But as it stands currently that is impossible since the marine comm can just see egg and structure splashes at the start of the game.
  • CiroCiro Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Members
    Probably to force the use of drifters and make ninjas easier.
  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members
    I think a compromise could be made. Have the marines need to actively avoid cysts. Maybe a 1m range on them for sound detection of some sort.
  • KuddlyKalliKuddlyKalli Yuggera Country Join Date: 2010-12-23 Member: 75905Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    The effects from structure drops and such are known and being worked on, but are surprisingly stubborn. Once I wash the blood off my whip, I'll make sure this gets some more attention. :P
  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members
    Kallistrate: an idea related to whips actually.. now that they're no longer AoE and can only target one thing at a time.. they should be more like a scorpion tail and 'jab' rather than whip, in my opinion. Put a spike on the end and make them strike overhead!
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    gimmic wrote: »
    Kallistrate: an idea related to whips actually.. now that they're no longer AoE and can only target one thing at a time.. they should be more like a scorpion tail and 'jab' rather than whip, in my opinion. Put a spike on the end and make them strike overhead!
    Changes to animations that actually work aren't likely to happen, sorry. Animation takes a lot of work and as long as the assets function reasonably well it's hard to argue for a do-over since that means less time to create new content or fix things that are actually broken.

  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members
    That is true. Wishful thinking I guess. It would also be nice to see who the whip is 'looking at'
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Back on topic:
    Foresight removal is pretty much for the best - drifters + foresight enables aliens to know where the marines are and what they're doing 80% of the time while marines would have to invest alot of res to do the same thing.
  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    Drifters are the equivalent of scans.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Drifters are the equivalent of scans.

    You know you've been scanned, you don't know drifter is watching you.
    Drifters are mobile.
    Drifters can last forever.
    Drifters provide buffs for aliens.
    Drifters can attack.

    Now, imagine scans traveling across the map, attacking gorgies and making marines reload twice as fast.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    You mean shoot twice as fast.

    Very glad its removed. We've got drifters.

    Those effect bugs have been reported for a while. They get fixed and come back again constantly..
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    xen32 wrote: »
    Drifters are the equivalent of scans.

    You know you've been scanned, you don't know drifter is watching you.
    Drifters are mobile.
    Drifters can last forever.
    Drifters provide buffs for aliens.
    Drifters can attack.

    Now, imagine scans traveling across the map, attacking gorgies and making marines reload twice as fast.

    Add a Remote Camera upgrade to MACs -> you get the marine equivalent to Drifters, just that they can't cloak themselves. But in return they can build stuff and keep your troops alive longer.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    CrushaK wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    Drifters are the equivalent of scans.

    You know you've been scanned, you don't know drifter is watching you.
    Drifters are mobile.
    Drifters can last forever.
    Drifters provide buffs for aliens.
    Drifters can attack.

    Now, imagine scans traveling across the map, attacking gorgies and making marines reload twice as fast.

    Add a Remote Camera upgrade to MACs -> you get the marine equivalent to Drifters, just that they can't cloak themselves. But in return they can build stuff and keep your troops alive longer.

    MACs already provide LoS.
  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    edited March 2013
    xen32 wrote: »
    Drifters are the equivalent of scans.

    You know you've been scanned, you don't know drifter is watching you.
    Drifters are mobile.
    Drifters can last forever.
    Drifters provide buffs for aliens.
    Drifters can attack.

    Now, imagine scans traveling across the map, attacking gorgies and making marines reload twice as fast.
    Drifters are visible when mobile.

    Drifters are only useful as scouts in areas where there isn't observatory coverage.
    They are still the equivalent of scans.

    You can scan instantly in any room for 3 res, drifter's also cost 3 res, but they're a killable unit.
    Ink is supposed to counter scans in theory, but it doesn't unless you know you're going to get scanned, and then there's a cooldown on it.

    What with the sides being asymmetrical.
    Also: The buff they provide?
    Costs res.
    As for their attack, it does roughly 10 damage a second.
    If a solo drifter kills you, you're awful, considering you can kill them with very little effort.

    edit:
    There's also a hard cap on the amount of drifters you can have at once(5 per hive).
    You can build as many observatories as you can afford, and scan as much as you can afford without any ill consequences except for the res cost.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I always wondered if the fact that coms can see structure drops was a bug. It's one that gets "exploited" all the time, too. Not that I'm blaming anyone, I do it myself when I com, but it's always felt a little cheap.
  • kingkrabbe.#bofkingkrabbe.#bof Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162892Members
    just one question: do you still hear marines as khammander?

    I had it once that I was hovering Cargo (fully infested area) a long time (building cysts and a shift) and then dropped a Hive which got attacked just the second I dropped it. Didn't even hear the shooting sounds and no marines moving around.

    I think that's a huge nerf since the marine commander can hear that stuff afaik (didn't play marine com since gorgeous). Or maybe I was unlucky, I dunno. Please enlighten me! =)

    In addition, I think drifters are sometimes kind of buggy and don't show everything they should. And a khammander should be able to see if they are cloacked or not because there is an obs nearby. Or is there an indicator for uncloacked drifters? I always can't tell.
  • BoBiNoUBoBiNoU Join Date: 2007-12-27 Member: 63274Members
    Played a few times as kham since 240 and I couldnt hear the marines. It's really disturbing :/
  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    In addition, I think drifters are sometimes kind of buggy and don't show everything they should. And a khammander should be able to see if they are cloacked or not because there is an obs nearby. Or is there an indicator for uncloacked drifters? I always can't tell.
    Drifters work on LoS(Line of Sight), so if there is anything blocking their view, they can't see that area of the room.

    If you want to have complete coverage of a room, you have to build 2-3 drifters for that room, or find a location that has a good vantage point.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    Remove drifter spotting and give them a new role... leave in foresight as the aliens way to find marines positions.

    Drifter spam is a big deal in the game. They are far too cheap... too high of health... and they offer constant awareness of marines in all places in the map.

    Nearly every competitive game you will see 7-10 drifters around the map. Even if you kill one they are replaced by a nearby one or simply rebuilt.

    Drifters are the broken mechanic... not foresight.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited March 2013
    Well, sewlek's balance test mod currently plays around with Drifters by making their abilities depend on the researched Hive paths. Cloak is only available with Shade for the Drifter, Crag Hives add slow regeneration and Shift Hives add more speed to them. Plus different abilities to activate per Hive: Enzyme from Shift Hive, Rupture (like Cyst Rupture) from Crag Hive and Hallucination from Shade Hive.

    Seems like a good compromise to me. If they add the feature in that way, I wouldn't mind getting at least the limited visual foresight back, i.e. seeing dark clouds when marines walk on infestation. Keep them completely invisible like they are now when they are not on infestation.


    Alternatively they could make it so that you have to specialize the Drifter. You can buy a weak one for 3 res and then upgrade it for another 2 res per upgrade to a specialized one. Either with the Crag, Shade or Shift upgrade (but maybe without needing to have the respective tech path researched first). That way you can either go for a cheaper Drifter that is easier for marines to dispose of (doesn't take two magazines anymore) or the old powerful one at a higher cost.

    Weak Drifter: 3 res
    Cloaked Drifter with Hallucination: 5 res
    Durable Drifter with Rupture: 5 res
    Fast Drifter with Enzyme Cloud: 5 res
    Cloaked fast Drifter with Hallucination and Enzyme Cloud: 7 res
    Cloaked durable Drifter with Hallucination and Rupture: 7 res
    Durable fast Drifter with Rupture and Enzyme Cloud: 7 res
    Cloaked durable fast Drifter with Hallucination, Rupture and Enzyme Cloud: 9 res
  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    .ADHd wrote: »
    Remove drifter spotting and give them a new role... leave in foresight as the aliens way to find marines positions.

    Drifter spam is a big deal in the game. They are far too cheap... too high of health... and they offer constant awareness of marines in all places in the map.

    Nearly every competitive game you will see 7-10 drifters around the map. Even if you kill one they are replaced by a nearby one or simply rebuilt.

    Drifters are the broken mechanic... not foresight.

    Drifter spam is no different than spamming scans, except you can spam scans infinitely.
    Drifters have a hard cap on the amount you can have out at once, and are hard countered by observatories.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    just one question: do you still hear marines as khammander?
    No, that was a bug. You shouldn't be able to see/hear enemy players/structures in places where you don't have LOS as the comm. Unfortunately, there have been quite a few bugs that have allowed this, so many players have gotten used to it as a "feature".
  • kingkrabbe.#bofkingkrabbe.#bof Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162892Members
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    just one question: do you still hear marines as khammander?
    No, that was a bug. You shouldn't be able to see/hear enemy players/structures in places where you don't have LOS as the comm. Unfortunately, there have been quite a few bugs that have allowed this, so many players have gotten used to it as a "feature".

    IMO around hives and other important structures (upgrade champers, shifts, ...) they should be visible. Or give shades the foresight ability.

    I just don't like the idea of marines running around near a hive without the khammander seeing or hearing them.

    Ok, you could leave a drifter near every hive, but I think that drifters aren't ment for near hive scouting.

    But I will do that from now on. =)

This discussion has been closed.