I played on Turtle as it was during the custom map cup. It was awful and aptly named. Marines basically sit around on their 3 naturals all game, and don't get me started on the power node at marine start. It is rediculously cheesed. Pretty sure every team that alien tied that map was due to that very node.
The res nodes, not the tech nodes, on turtle are the problem. It was made during builds in which the aliens were winning more than 70% of matches on the official maps. To compensate, turtle was made extremely marine friendly, making it particularly problematic now that the sides are more balanced.
Personally, I prefer 5 tech node maps to 4 tech node ones. However, I think the number of tech nodes is less relevant than the number and layout of res nodes. Its fairly rare to see matches lost due to lack of tech nodes held rather than lack of res nodes held.
Which, IMO is exactly the appeal of 4tech node maps. As you say, thanks to the proliferation of 5tech node maps, tech nodes become much less relevant strategically.
I agree with the OP, 4 tech points is best. Onos vs Exo fights are boring, and hive 3 tech is for the most part incredibly uninteresting. 4 tech points forces you to actually fight for your upgraded technology, and means that once one team starts winning the other has to actively do something to turn it around, because they won't be able to turtle and res starve them with inferior equipment. It provides for shorter, more action-packed games and requires more aggressive marine play which is something that this game is severely lacking on public servers.
5TPs are only bad because aliens don't need 3 and marines are content with sitting on 2. Like Neo said, if aliens actually needed a third hive to be truly competitive with 2 TP marines, we'd actually see a lot more exciting games around that fifth TP.
^^ I really agree with the above two. 4 techpoints is all that is needed. The 5th is often forgotten because the marines don't inherently need it and the aliens don't need it much. Either team just seems to grab it if they are already winning but the third tp does not necessarily help them win. 3rd hive stuff is not as game changing as 2nd hive. 4tp really does force teams to be more aggressive.
I played on Turtle as it was during the custom map cup. It was awful and aptly named. Marines basically sit around on their 3 naturals all game, and don't get me started on the power node at marine start. It is rediculously cheesed. Pretty sure every team that alien tied that map was due to that very node.
The res nodes, not the tech nodes, on turtle are the problem. It was made during builds in which the aliens were winning more than 70% of matches on the official maps. To compensate, turtle was made extremely marine friendly, making it particularly problematic now that the sides are more balanced.
Personally, I prefer 5 tech node maps to 4 tech node ones. However, I think the number of tech nodes is less relevant than the number and layout of res nodes. Its fairly rare to see matches lost due to lack of tech nodes held rather than lack of res nodes held.
I also agree with the above two quotes.. It is more a matter of map design than how many tp but often the number of tp decides the map design along with the number of rp. Maps often have 2x the number of tp's for rp's. More rp's make too much res available and make it so that both sides get late game tech really quickly which ends, for me, the more fun mid game.
I am fine with and even enjoy 5tp maps, I just would like to see more 4tp maps too.
-Too much for marines to do and try to cover
-No consistency between maps. Some have 5. Some don't
-The idea behind five us to have an even game where you have Two-techpoint marines vying with 3 hive aliens. This does not work, the marines must scramble and get three total locked down, or it's generally a slow loss.
-I will add more flaws as I think of them.
-Phase gates and jetpacks.
-All official maps so far have 5 tech nodes except Veil.
-Game is asymmetrical, of course it works. Arcs bro.
-Please do, none of these are credible.
Veil is actually the worst map in NS2 in my opinion. 5 tech node maps allow for both teams to get 2 tech nodes each and fight over the 5th.
On Veil, you can have a match where marines rush for sub, and aliens rush for nano. And then you get to wait and fight in the hallways attempting to break into these ridiculously designed areas. Most of the time, this ends up in Aliens taking nano and getting 12 minute Onos, or marines taking cargo and keeping the Aliens from doing... anything.
The vents in sub-sector are useless once marines have an obs, cargo is a huge room that is terrible for Onos to do anything but hit the power node, and the hallways in Veil are all terrible for jetpacks. These are actually good reasons why I think Veil should be removed, as it is inconsistent with the rest of the maps, which are 5 tech nodes, and don't include a double res-node. Every map that used to have a double-res node has been changed except Veil. (Refinery double is balanced now) I just don't see how it could be changed to improve balance.
Honestly I think it is very difficult to say anything about the number of techpoints without also talking about the layout of the map. Is it a wagon wheel or another design, is there a point in the center or not, how are the RTs laid out, how far is it from point to point, what rooms hold strategic value?
I'm sure there are maps which would benefit from having a point dropped, but others which are fine with 5 points. We won't really know for sure what the implication of 4 vs. 5 points is until we have a variety of maps of each type, but I would be willing to hazard a guess that the number of tech points alone is not the most important/defining feature of a map.
There is a place in NS2 for 4 and 5 tech point maps. They just don't play quite the same as each other, and I consider that to be a good thing. Not a bad thing!
There is a place in NS2 for 4 and 5 tech point maps. They just don't play quite the same as each other, and I consider that to be a good thing. Not a bad thing!
It would be helpful for your to explain your position rather than just stating it.
As much as I hate fighting 2 tech-point Marines as a 2 Hive Alien, I feel that this is a move in the right direction. 3 Hive Aliens vs 1 Tech Point marines gives Aliens that "game-ending" tech, strictly because Marine tech is compromised.
Likewise, ending a game as Marines with 2 Tech Points vs a 2 Hive Alien is much much less time-consuming. I like the idea of a lot of the action centered around claiming the Tech Point advantage.
These are actually good reasons why I think Veil should be removed, as it is inconsistent with the rest of the maps, which are 5 tech nodes, and don't include a double res-node. Every map that used to have a double-res node has been changed except Veil. (Refinery double is balanced now) I just don't see how it could be changed to improve balance.
So your saying that all maps should be roughly the same thing with consistent patterns of gameplay and map design? Sounds pretty boring.
Veil is not super unbalanced. Ns2stats shows it as being 53.66/46.33 aliens/marines. That is actually pretty close on a statistical side. Veil is also 10% off all matches, 2% behind summit which is the most poplular map according to ns2 stats.
@Slyfox, if Aliens have 2 and Marines have 2, why would they fight over the fifth? Marines don't need it, and Aliens don't really need it either. The better strategy for Aliens would be to allow the marines to take the third tech point, then send light harassment to all three bases while taking out RT's. The marines will not be able to do a god damn thing about it. If the marines roll Exo's or Arcs out, the alien tech needed to fight back is located on the second hive, not the third. There is virtually no reason to go for a third hive, unless you went shade hive first and really need adrenaline for your gorges or something.
@Slyfox, if Aliens have 2 and Marines have 2, why would they fight over the fifth? Marines don't need it, and Aliens don't really need it either. The better strategy for Aliens would be to allow the marines to take the third tech point, then send light harassment to all three bases while taking out RT's. The marines will not be able to do a god damn thing about it. If the marines roll Exo's or Arcs out, the alien tech needed to fight back is located on the second hive, not the third. There is virtually no reason to go for a third hive, unless you went shade hive first and really need adrenaline for your gorges or something.
Third tech point for either team is more of a safety then anything else. Going from 3 to 2 TPs is not a huge deal, going from 2 to 1 is a massive set back for either team (more so for aliens). 3rd hive also gives enough of a boost to aliens that it probably means gg even if marines are still on 2.
These are actually good reasons why I think Veil should be removed, as it is inconsistent with the rest of the maps, which are 5 tech nodes, and don't include a double res-node. Every map that used to have a double-res node has been changed except Veil. (Refinery double is balanced now) I just don't see how it could be changed to improve balance.
So your saying that all maps should be roughly the same thing with consistent patterns of gameplay and map design? Sounds pretty boring.
Veil is not super unbalanced. Ns2stats shows it as being 53.66/46.33 aliens/marines. That is actually pretty close on a statistical side. Veil is also 10% off all matches, 2% behind summit which is the most poplular map according to ns2 stats.
No, I'm saying the maps should have consistency so that winning strategies don't change significantly because the map did. You can look at the overall statistics all you want, they mean nothing to the individual problems I am addressing.
@Slyfox, if Aliens have 2 and Marines have 2, why would they fight over the fifth? Marines don't need it, and Aliens don't really need it either. The better strategy for Aliens would be to allow the marines to take the third tech point, then send light harassment to all three bases while taking out RT's. The marines will not be able to do a god damn thing about it. If the marines roll Exo's or Arcs out, the alien tech needed to fight back is located on the second hive, not the third. There is virtually no reason to go for a third hive, unless you went shade hive first and really need adrenaline for your gorges or something.
Why would they fight over the fifth? Because it's there. Just because something is the 'best strategy' doesn't mean that this is how the majority of gamers will play the game. There being virtually no reason to go for a third hive is not a fault of the map, it is a fault of the design of alien's third hive. It is meant to be purposeful. You are also undervaluing aliens having all 3 of their hive types/upgrades. This is equivalent to marines having weapons 3 and armor 3, which doesn't require 3 comm chairs.
Wow, what a surprisingly divided issue. It sounds like it comes down to people who like the end game tug of wars, verses people who like early game races to the finish line.
I don't like 5 TP maps like Tram, but I'm fine with a map like Summit where the 5th point is in the center and contestable from all sides.
A 5 TP 'circular' map basically allows both teams to sit back and not contest territory. So long as marines have their 2 and aliens have their 3, then it just becomes a race to tech up and launch the final assault. Lost are battles over that 'middle' tech point that both sides need but only one side can have.
So while I don't oppose 5 TP maps in principle, I do think such maps should have one TP in a highly contestable area.
I concur, I think it comes down to the map design. As for maps that have 3 tech points, afaik theyre mostly remakes from NS1 which is never a bad thing xD
I think for comps or at least a general rule of thumb for new maps coming out that there should be a highly contestable tech point, most maps already cover this but some do not.
Wow, what a surprisingly divided issue. It sounds like it comes down to people who like the end game tug of wars, verses people who like early game races to the finish line.
This is very true. It is my opinion that maps should be consistent or clearly provide the difference (different game modes), Veil is just messy and in between to me.
To be fair, the battle can be won in the early game on almost any map in 8v8+ games.
This is very true. It is my opinion that maps should be consistent or clearly provide the difference (different game modes), Veil is just messy and in between to me.
To be fair, the battle can be won in the early game on almost any map in 8v8+ games.
Why does it need to be a whole different game mode?
I wouldn't say Veil is in between. It plays differently to 5 TP sure. A double res in a 5 tech point map is quite important, on Veil it's very much a secondary objective and the tech points become much more important.
This is very true. It is my opinion that maps should be consistent or clearly provide the difference (different game modes), Veil is just messy and in between to me.
To be fair, the battle can be won in the early game on almost any map in 8v8+ games.
Why does it need to be a whole different game mode?
I wouldn't say Veil is in between. It plays differently to 5 TP sure. A double res in a 5 tech point map is quite important, on Veil it's very much a secondary objective and the tech points become much more important.
You are missing the point, it is inconsistent, both for new players and pros alike. I didn't say that different game modes were the only option, simply that the difference should be outlined. Veil plays extremely different from the other maps, and it is the only map to do so. The only map where the aliens do the same thing every time (go for nano), and the marines have only one starting location. (pre-mods)
This map is so 'balanced' that it becomes extremely imbalanced and boring because of the asymmetrical design of the game. It is a great map for Marine vs Marine.
This is very true. It is my opinion that maps should be consistent or clearly provide the difference (different game modes), Veil is just messy and in between to me.
To be fair, the battle can be won in the early game on almost any map in 8v8+ games.
Why does it need to be a whole different game mode?
I wouldn't say Veil is in between. It plays differently to 5 TP sure. A double res in a 5 tech point map is quite important, on Veil it's very much a secondary objective and the tech points become much more important.
You are missing the point, it is inconsistent, both for new players and pros alike. I didn't say that different game modes were the only option, simply that the difference should be outlined. Veil plays extremely different from the other maps, and it is the only map to do so. The only map where the aliens do the same thing every time (go for nano), and the marines have only one starting location. (pre-mods)
This map is so 'balanced' that it becomes extremely imbalanced and boring because of the asymmetrical design of the game. It is a great map for Marine vs Marine.
That is why I would like more 4tp maps. For more variety. They wont all play like veil does. Every map has a best strategy and most games follow it mostly anyways.
That is why I would like more 4tp maps. For more variety. They wont all play like veil does. Every map has a best strategy and most games follow it mostly anyways.
There is no map in NS2 that has a 'best strategy' besides Veil. Every other map has randomized starting zones for both teams (Docking pre-modded? not sure) and an uneven amount of tech nodes.
I'm not saying it's wrong to enjoy the 'aliens rush for nano, marines rush for cargo, every single game' playstyle, merely that it is totally inconsistent with the rest of the maps.
Maybe we just don't have enough 4tp maps to compare. I agree that Veil is the most repetitive, but that doesn't mean 4tp maps will all be repetitive, right? Maybe there are some as yet undiscovered layouts that would make a 4tp map work with random spawns for both teams.
Maybe we just don't have enough 4tp maps to compare. I agree that Veil is the most repetitive, but that doesn't mean 4tp maps will all be repetitive, right? Maybe there are some as yet undiscovered layouts that would make a 4tp map work with random spawns for both teams.
I would love to see that! At the moment, Veil is my least favorite map.
Docking, refinery, and veil all have fixed marine starts. Docking did not start out that way but was made so for balance. By your same logic they all play the same also.
Docking, refinery, and veil all have fixed marine starts. Docking did not start out that way but was made so for balance. By your same logic they all play the same also.
I am glad we both want to see more 4tp maps.
Thanks for clearing that up. This is not true though, as Refinery and Docking both have 5 tech nodes. (part of 'my logic' :P) You can't just say 'let's secure these three tech nodes and win the game.' (or even two, when marines take cargo it draws a line in the center of the map that Aliens have a hard time breaking)
Edit: Refinery and Docking have been given new starting points for both marines and aliens in Gorgeous, so Veil is now the only map with a fixed marine spawn.
Thanks for clearing that up. This is not true though, as Refinery and Docking both have 5 tech nodes. (part of 'my logic' :P) You can't just say 'let's secure these three tech nodes and win the game.' (or even two, when marines take cargo it draws a line in the center of the map that Aliens have a hard time breaking)
Edit: Refinery and Docking have been given new starting points for both marines and aliens in Gorgeous, so Veil is now the only map with a fixed marine spawn.
If the marines can actually secure cargo then the teams were not balanced. This is anecdotyle but I have so rarely seen marines successfully get cargo. Most games I see the marines go get skylights and topo and the aliens rush their base while the commander gets nano. Veil for me almost always starts out this way. I think this has more to do with veils layout than 4tp. I am kinda working on a 4tp map that has 3 outer tp's and one a the center of the map. The plan is to have those outer spawns be random.
the two best maps are veil and docking. the common aspect is the marine start is tucked farther away than the other tech points. its much easier for them to just grab one tech point and use it to take the rest. you balance this by getting more resources on aliens, but its not easy either due to cyst chains . on the other hand, its easy for aliens to expand early since their techs are more closely positioned. it requires a well played early game on both marine and alien parts to win, and there are ways to deny throughout the game.
tram is worst map by a long shot. the layout is just a maze of zig-zag hallways to increase travel time, but its really small (easy arcing) and a boring 9x9 grid of rooms. too symmetric.
Thanks for clearing that up. This is not true though, as Refinery and Docking both have 5 tech nodes. (part of 'my logic' :P) You can't just say 'let's secure these three tech nodes and win the game.' (or even two, when marines take cargo it draws a line in the center of the map that Aliens have a hard time breaking)
Edit: Refinery and Docking have been given new starting points for both marines and aliens in Gorgeous, so Veil is now the only map with a fixed marine spawn.
If the marines can actually secure cargo then the teams were not balanced. This is anecdotyle but I have so rarely seen marines successfully get cargo. Most games I see the marines go get skylights and topo and the aliens rush their base while the commander gets nano. Veil for me almost always starts out this way. I think this has more to do with veils layout than 4tp. I am kinda working on a 4tp map that has 3 outer tp's and one a the center of the map. The plan is to have those outer spawns be random.
Thanks for clearing that up. This is not true though, as Refinery and Docking both have 5 tech nodes. (part of 'my logic' :P) You can't just say 'let's secure these three tech nodes and win the game.' (or even two, when marines take cargo it draws a line in the center of the map that Aliens have a hard time breaking)
Edit: Refinery and Docking have been given new starting points for both marines and aliens in Gorgeous, so Veil is now the only map with a fixed marine spawn.
If the marines can actually secure cargo then the teams were not balanced. This is anecdotyle but I have so rarely seen marines successfully get cargo. Most games I see the marines go get skylights and topo and the aliens rush their base while the commander gets nano. Veil for me almost always starts out this way. I think this has more to do with veils layout than 4tp. I am kinda working on a 4tp map that has 3 outer tp's and one a the center of the map. The plan is to have those outer spawns be random.
I've been toying with all kinds of layouts. This is one I like, but I'm worried the matches will be too quick.
Thats funny. Same essential design as mine. Mine is a bit different. Mine is essentially a triangle not a hexagon. I like yours better than mine though. I think am map like that would be a lot of fun.
On matches being quick. The map would be smaller and would have a lot of combat but I feel that is the whole point. There is less rp's so that tech and higher lifeforms come later. Just like any other map, whichever team wins the engagements most wins but it would be earlier tech used.
You are missing the point, it is inconsistent, both for new players and pros alike. I didn't say that different game modes were the only option, simply that the difference should be outlined. Veil plays extremely different from the other maps, and it is the only map to do so. The only map where the aliens do the same thing every time (go for nano), and the marines have only one starting location. (pre-mods)
This map is so 'balanced' that it becomes extremely imbalanced and boring because of the asymmetrical design of the game. It is a great map for Marine vs Marine.
This map has 4 TPs, this one has 5, adjust. Veil plays differently more due to the layout then the fact that it has 4 TPs anyway.
I'll agree Veil plays extremely differently to the other maps, but the only bad thing about that is that Veil is the only different one! I hope to see more maps come out with unique layouts that encourage different styles of play. I don't want every map to have the same best strat.
I can't say I agree, but there needs to be a reason for marines to hold 3 tech points beyond area denial.
Also
Most of the alien hive 3 abilities kinda suck.
Umbra is good.
Stomp is overpowered, but it rarely comes up, so whatever.
Comments
Which, IMO is exactly the appeal of 4tech node maps. As you say, thanks to the proliferation of 5tech node maps, tech nodes become much less relevant strategically.
I also agree with the above two quotes.. It is more a matter of map design than how many tp but often the number of tp decides the map design along with the number of rp. Maps often have 2x the number of tp's for rp's. More rp's make too much res available and make it so that both sides get late game tech really quickly which ends, for me, the more fun mid game.
I am fine with and even enjoy 5tp maps, I just would like to see more 4tp maps too.
-Phase gates and jetpacks.
-All official maps so far have 5 tech nodes except Veil.
-Game is asymmetrical, of course it works. Arcs bro.
-Please do, none of these are credible.
Veil is actually the worst map in NS2 in my opinion. 5 tech node maps allow for both teams to get 2 tech nodes each and fight over the 5th.
On Veil, you can have a match where marines rush for sub, and aliens rush for nano. And then you get to wait and fight in the hallways attempting to break into these ridiculously designed areas. Most of the time, this ends up in Aliens taking nano and getting 12 minute Onos, or marines taking cargo and keeping the Aliens from doing... anything.
The vents in sub-sector are useless once marines have an obs, cargo is a huge room that is terrible for Onos to do anything but hit the power node, and the hallways in Veil are all terrible for jetpacks. These are actually good reasons why I think Veil should be removed, as it is inconsistent with the rest of the maps, which are 5 tech nodes, and don't include a double res-node. Every map that used to have a double-res node has been changed except Veil. (Refinery double is balanced now) I just don't see how it could be changed to improve balance.
I'm sure there are maps which would benefit from having a point dropped, but others which are fine with 5 points. We won't really know for sure what the implication of 4 vs. 5 points is until we have a variety of maps of each type, but I would be willing to hazard a guess that the number of tech points alone is not the most important/defining feature of a map.
It would be helpful for your to explain your position rather than just stating it.
Likewise, ending a game as Marines with 2 Tech Points vs a 2 Hive Alien is much much less time-consuming. I like the idea of a lot of the action centered around claiming the Tech Point advantage.
Veil is not super unbalanced. Ns2stats shows it as being 53.66/46.33 aliens/marines. That is actually pretty close on a statistical side. Veil is also 10% off all matches, 2% behind summit which is the most poplular map according to ns2 stats.
Third tech point for either team is more of a safety then anything else. Going from 3 to 2 TPs is not a huge deal, going from 2 to 1 is a massive set back for either team (more so for aliens). 3rd hive also gives enough of a boost to aliens that it probably means gg even if marines are still on 2.
No, I'm saying the maps should have consistency so that winning strategies don't change significantly because the map did. You can look at the overall statistics all you want, they mean nothing to the individual problems I am addressing.
Why would they fight over the fifth? Because it's there. Just because something is the 'best strategy' doesn't mean that this is how the majority of gamers will play the game. There being virtually no reason to go for a third hive is not a fault of the map, it is a fault of the design of alien's third hive. It is meant to be purposeful. You are also undervaluing aliens having all 3 of their hive types/upgrades. This is equivalent to marines having weapons 3 and armor 3, which doesn't require 3 comm chairs.
I concur, I think it comes down to the map design. As for maps that have 3 tech points, afaik theyre mostly remakes from NS1 which is never a bad thing xD
I think for comps or at least a general rule of thumb for new maps coming out that there should be a highly contestable tech point, most maps already cover this but some do not.
This is very true. It is my opinion that maps should be consistent or clearly provide the difference (different game modes), Veil is just messy and in between to me.
To be fair, the battle can be won in the early game on almost any map in 8v8+ games.
Why? Having to use different strategies on different maps is fun. Why would you want the same thing to work every round?
Why does it need to be a whole different game mode?
I wouldn't say Veil is in between. It plays differently to 5 TP sure. A double res in a 5 tech point map is quite important, on Veil it's very much a secondary objective and the tech points become much more important.
You are missing the point, it is inconsistent, both for new players and pros alike. I didn't say that different game modes were the only option, simply that the difference should be outlined. Veil plays extremely different from the other maps, and it is the only map to do so. The only map where the aliens do the same thing every time (go for nano), and the marines have only one starting location. (pre-mods)
This map is so 'balanced' that it becomes extremely imbalanced and boring because of the asymmetrical design of the game. It is a great map for Marine vs Marine.
That is why I would like more 4tp maps. For more variety. They wont all play like veil does. Every map has a best strategy and most games follow it mostly anyways.
There is no map in NS2 that has a 'best strategy' besides Veil. Every other map has randomized starting zones for both teams (Docking pre-modded? not sure) and an uneven amount of tech nodes.
I'm not saying it's wrong to enjoy the 'aliens rush for nano, marines rush for cargo, every single game' playstyle, merely that it is totally inconsistent with the rest of the maps.
I would love to see that! At the moment, Veil is my least favorite map.
My favorite maps are Tram/Summit/Docking.
I am glad we both want to see more 4tp maps.
Thanks for clearing that up. This is not true though, as Refinery and Docking both have 5 tech nodes. (part of 'my logic' :P) You can't just say 'let's secure these three tech nodes and win the game.' (or even two, when marines take cargo it draws a line in the center of the map that Aliens have a hard time breaking)
Edit: Refinery and Docking have been given new starting points for both marines and aliens in Gorgeous, so Veil is now the only map with a fixed marine spawn.
If the marines can actually secure cargo then the teams were not balanced. This is anecdotyle but I have so rarely seen marines successfully get cargo. Most games I see the marines go get skylights and topo and the aliens rush their base while the commander gets nano. Veil for me almost always starts out this way. I think this has more to do with veils layout than 4tp. I am kinda working on a 4tp map that has 3 outer tp's and one a the center of the map. The plan is to have those outer spawns be random.
the two best maps are veil and docking. the common aspect is the marine start is tucked farther away than the other tech points. its much easier for them to just grab one tech point and use it to take the rest. you balance this by getting more resources on aliens, but its not easy either due to cyst chains . on the other hand, its easy for aliens to expand early since their techs are more closely positioned. it requires a well played early game on both marine and alien parts to win, and there are ways to deny throughout the game.
tram is worst map by a long shot. the layout is just a maze of zig-zag hallways to increase travel time, but its really small (easy arcing) and a boring 9x9 grid of rooms. too symmetric.
Something like this? http://i.imgur.com/KeAnqNd.png
I've been toying with all kinds of layouts. This is one I like, but I'm worried the matches will be too quick.
Thats funny. Same essential design as mine. Mine is a bit different. Mine is essentially a triangle not a hexagon. I like yours better than mine though. I think am map like that would be a lot of fun.
On matches being quick. The map would be smaller and would have a lot of combat but I feel that is the whole point. There is less rp's so that tech and higher lifeforms come later. Just like any other map, whichever team wins the engagements most wins but it would be earlier tech used.
This map has 4 TPs, this one has 5, adjust. Veil plays differently more due to the layout then the fact that it has 4 TPs anyway.
I'll agree Veil plays extremely differently to the other maps, but the only bad thing about that is that Veil is the only different one! I hope to see more maps come out with unique layouts that encourage different styles of play. I don't want every map to have the same best strat.
Also
Most of the alien hive 3 abilities kinda suck.
Umbra is good.
Stomp is overpowered, but it rarely comes up, so whatever.