More than 4 total techpoints is bad
CommunistWithAGun
Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
-Too much for marines to do and try to cover
-No consistency between maps. Some have 5. Some don't
-The idea behind five us to have an even game where you have Two-techpoint marines vying with 3 hive aliens. This does not work, the marines must scramble and get three total locked down, or it's generally a slow loss.
-I will add more flaws as I think of them.
-No consistency between maps. Some have 5. Some don't
-The idea behind five us to have an even game where you have Two-techpoint marines vying with 3 hive aliens. This does not work, the marines must scramble and get three total locked down, or it's generally a slow loss.
-I will add more flaws as I think of them.
Comments
And Aliens have to defend 3 hives to get all their upgrades, while marines only have to defend 2. (ideally marines should control 3 tech points to deny aliens third hive upgrades and onos eggs). Marine bases are more tanky, where aliens have to not only kill the CC (not last CC/Hive obviously) but the other buildings as well to completely lock the room down, while if the aliens lose a hive in the area they lose more (eggs/healing/upgrades).
Both have advantages and disadvantages.
5 tech point maps last longer and some people prefer that, while the 4 tech point maps can be more decisive for marines or aliens if they dont get their full 2 CC or 3 Hives etc.
In fact I think it's another mosaic stone of the bad performance of marines in pubs. As a new player knowing that marines need 2 and aliens 3 tech points to fully tech up you insintively think that as a marine you do not really need to secure a third hive. So most marines consider taking 2nd tech point enough and a 3rd just being the cherry on the cake.
This stands in total contrast to the fact that aliens that can take 3 hives without serious fighting win.
Besides Veil being a bad map for NS2, I like it for the fact that as aliens your second hive is not free. Because there are only 2 free tech points pub Marines can seriously hinder you in taking your second hive so you have to actually teamplay against good marines so they don't take it away from you. In any 5 TP map aliens have to seriously suck to not get 2nd hive easily on pubs...
Most times in 5 tech point maps, the most fighting is for the third hive, which can hinder the aliens if marines successfully lock it down. Even if aliens get the third hive up, it doesn't make it a loss for marines as they still get their full upgrades and then this is where most of the fun starts as both sides are start siege on bases with full upgrades/lifeforms.
5 techpoints is fine imo. 4 tech points basically says if aliens get 3 they win, if marines get 2 they win. Assuming roughly equal RT control. You hand one team the win button... May aswell concede once the other team gets 3/2 tech points unless you stand a chance to get it back in the next 2 minutes.
You essentially reduce strategy to a tech point race. RTs become almost meaningless if you can secure and hold a tech point advantage. If marines can hold 2 tech points, they can turtle even on two RTs with the safety of knowing that stomp, umbra, an onos eggs are never coming. Likewise with aliens and JP/exo.
Can't agree with this, I'm afraid! While I'd like to see some more viable strategies in the game for all levels of play, I think that the larger maps bring something different and complementary to what Veil offers with its 4 tech points. Keeping things mixed up is good.
2 TP marines should be balanced with 3 hive aliens. 2 bases are not to much to hold.
-No consistency between maps. Some have 5. Some don't
Thats so that you can get what you want. If you like 4tp maps: fine. Play veil. Let the others who like both types play all maps.
-The idea behind five us to have an even game where you have Two-techpoint marines vying with 3 hive aliens. This does not work, the marines must scramble and get three total locked down, or it's generally a slow loss.
Because the late game isn't perfectly balanced yet, doesn't mean it's the way it should be. Having a fair game between 2tp marines and 3 hive aliens is a better goal than to introduce such additional win conditions, that will only lead to more early concedes.
Disagree on the "if marines get 2 they win" -part. On veil (the only 4-tech-point map at the moment) if aliens hold, say sub-sector and cargo, and marines hold pipeline and control, and both teams have control over 5 rts, it still favors aliens. This situation is pretty well balanced and both teams might come on out on top, but by no means does it favor marines more than aliens. It's all about which team is applying more pressure, and it's much easier for aliens with access to fades to get the marines on the defensive than vice versa, mostly because of mobility and because it's easier to clear a room with aliens thanks to the power node mechanism. A good alien team can easily deny marines a push by attacking either pipeline or control and thus forcing a beacon when they first see the marines closing on a hive, but this is impossible for marines, who are slower in both making a push and finishing what they started in said push.
You also contradict yourself a bit by saying "Assuming roughly equal RT control" and "RTs become almost meaningless". In a 2-2 situation on a 4-tech-point map, the single most important factor is the amount of RTs you can control, which is the same as how much you can apply pressure and get the adversary to react and defend.
- Aliens have drifters that are almost equilavent on observatories but are a lot cheaper and can easily be placed on all important parts of maps and give superior map awareness for aliens often for whole duration of the match. No sneaky moves behind the lines possible for marines.
- Aliens can build static defenses with pres (clogs and hydras) that gives aliens very strong area denial capability from the beinning of the game. Marines have expensive sentries that cost tres and if used early they delay the important upgrades. Because of that sentries don't get used much (if at all) because if you have got to the point that you can afford the sentries you are propably going to win the game anyway already and they are not needed anymore.
Suggestion: Give marines ability to carry 1 turret or battery and they can buy them with pres and need to place them on ground.
Good points. I meant those ideas to be separate. Consider the latter an extreme case of the former.
As for pushes and beacons. Pre push, you probably only have 2 PGs, you should not need beacon. Pushing, you probably have 3. Still should need beacon. Especially if a guy is on base duty.
Add a pg if you consider nano marine held.
Turtle has 6 tech points and is one of my favorite maps at the moment
I think you need to look beyond the number and actually take a closer look at how maps play out to decide if they are good and balanced
A 5 TP 'circular' map basically allows both teams to sit back and not contest territory. So long as marines have their 2 and aliens have their 3, then it just becomes a race to tech up and launch the final assault. Lost are battles over that 'middle' tech point that both sides need but only one side can have.
So while I don't oppose 5 TP maps in principle, I do think such maps should have one TP in a highly contestable area.
cross is OP on summit, staging area for push on every Rt but vent... I love summit, but cross is an autowin if held.
i think summit is the best and veil is the second best, both provide frequent good games.
Veil is bad cause it has only 4 of them.
I played on Turtle as it was during the custom map cup. It was awful and aptly named. Marines basically sit around on their 3 naturals all game, and don't get me started on the power node at marine start. It is rediculously cheesed. Pretty sure every team that alien tied that map was due to that very node.
The topic is not a discussion on what I personally like. It is a discussion on the innate problems 5 point maps have
Personally, I prefer 5 tech node maps to 4 tech node ones. However, I think the number of tech nodes is less relevant than the number and layout of res nodes. Its fairly rare to see matches lost due to lack of tech nodes held rather than lack of res nodes held.